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When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

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  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Roads to stop:
    they only serve to increase car commuting.
    Where in Dublin do you propose to house these people who are only trying to provide for themselves and their families.
    Have you spared a thought for them?
    It seems you wish to only address a symptom rather than putting forward a cure.
    Either the jobs move out of Dublin or habitable, dignified and affordable accommodation is created in Dublin. Teleworking can only achieve so much and driving to a Train Station remote from their homes to bring them in to Connolly or Pearse or Heuston Stations would double the length of most journeys.

    At some stage you are just going to have to accept that the road infrastructure is not yet fully built out and needs judicious additions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    We need huge investment in urban transit systems. If you take just out two largest cities, Dublin has two tramlines and a Victorian electrified railway that has level crossings in the city inner suburbs, because somehow finding that was an insurmountable task discussed for 40 years. Any other commuter rail is using diesel, something I’ve never seen anywhere other than American commuter rail, which is not an example to follow. Other than that it’s diesel buses.

    Cork has suburbs with way over 90% car dependency and relies primarily on a notoriously unpredictable bus network that’s been so underdeveloped it has become self defeating as hardly anyone can rely on it, so they drive instead and has one diesel commuter rail line built during the 19th century. Somehow investing in public transport systems in cities outside Dublin is still unimaginable, because we still have the “Dublin” vs “down the country” mentality that results in public policy that equates cities like Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford to small towns, so you’ve a long distance bus company running Cork City busses for example as if they’re express way.

    If you solved the cities transit needs with more trams, electric railways, metro in Dublin and serious and sustained investment you would take millions off journeys of the roads and probably end most traffic jams.

    Ireland’s low density population and scatter in rural area doesn’t lend itself to much rail, but we should at least invest in a high speed Y shaped network that could link Cork, Limerick, Dublin and Belfast. We’ve basically got up to European 1960s speeds on our existing services and we’ve very much just applied “go faster stripes” by putting more modern looking trains which still just run at maximum 160km/h and burn diesel. In terms of services it’s still doing exactly the same as it did in the mid 20th century.

    On the roads side of it, we’ve a need for motorway and I don’t think you can realistically call Irish long distance stuff “big” - they’re narrow 2-lane motorways and are more than adequate for traffic. We were decades behind on road infrastructure until recently.

    I think we could also use them better - electric cars are one thing but also by putting good public transport on them - use the infrastructure more greenly. Invest in hybrid and electric express busses, maybe look at electric freight - It’s a technology that being trialled in Scandinavia that we could be looking at too.

    However I think we’re always going to have roads as a big part of the mix here, so we need to use them better and more ecologically.

    Whether it’s on iron or tyres I don’t think your really going to see much benefit by refusing to invest in roads in a country that has major legacy issues with lack of road infrastructure.

    The key issue though is urban transit systems and we are not doing anything even remotely like enough to solve that in any of our lifetimes never mind the next couple of decades. The plans are always extremely unambitious.


  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'd propose an alternate thread. When will the penny drop that we need large attractive population centres and they are "infrastructure" which obviates the need for investment in other infrastructure.
    The recently deceased Liam Carroll through Zoe Developments in spite of his unimaginative architecture and H&S breaches did much good work though the late 80s to early 2000s in that he delivered huge amounts of accommodation to the City Centre and people who had no ties before family formation stage in life enjoyed a better quality of life in his shoeboxes than they would have otherwise enjoyed in dingy overcrowed house-shares in the suburbs or commuting from other towns to get to work each day or worse still overcrowded house-shares in other towns.
    This thread was started with a very leading question which steers conversation in only one direction rather than looking at things holistically and it has led to rural dwellers and those who commute by car to being demonized by some on this thread.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    I think one of the key problems is Ireland hasn’t been good at cities or urban development. Great cities don’t happen by accident.

    Our cities have very limited self governance compared to almost any other examples I can think of. It would be normal for Dublin or Cork to be driving and managing their own public transit networks, raising financing and everything else if this were in continental Europe or even the US.

    We over centralise everything into a big, amorphous mess that constantly conflates urban and rural policies and plays the two off each other. The fact that the government is in Dublin, for example, does not mean Dublin has a competent and capable local government.

    If we started by seriously reforming local government, reorganising it into sanely sized units and giving cities and towns similar powers to their counterparts elsewhere in Europe, it might be a start.

    How exactly can Dublin or Cork, Limerick, Galway or Waterford hope to compete or adapt when they’ve local government systems at a city level that would be outclassed in terms of autonomy of decision making by a small French or German village?

    When it came to towns, we went head first into abolishing town councils rather than reforming them and we’ve tried to force the merger of cities and county councils. Merging Cork County Council with Cork City Council, which was stopped thankfully, would have been like merging Dublin City Council with Tipperary. The two had very little in common other than the word Cork. One is a rural are the size of almost half of Northern Ireland and the other is a significant city.

    I actually don’t trust think we don’t do a very good job of urban. Rather, I think Ireland has a massive psychological issue with the very concept of urban. We have policies that seem to aim to destroy cities and undermine towns. Perhaps it’s the idealised notions we have of rural life but, we need to urgently get over it or we will be left behind.

    Also sprawling development into rural areas isn’t good for them to either.

    If you take many Irish small towns, they’re dead because all the development has occurred in their hinterland in terms of housing and the focus has ended up on driving to the local Lidl, Aldi or Tesco. So the town is left with derelict houses and empty shops. You see that repeated all over the midlands and so on.

    I remember being in north Leitrim and some of the development attempts in small towns would just leave you scratching your head. Villages that seemed to be trying to implement policies suitable for cities - like building strips of duplex apartments with no gardens, that nobody wanted, with nobody living in their basement flats because some planning department hadn’t a clue what a village was and apartment buildings for demand that never existed.

    We haven’t a clue when it comes to this stuff. It’s actually frightening to see how badly wrong we got it.

    In terms of the cities, if we don’t get them right it will also undermine our ability to continue to attract and keep FDI and domestic investment. Cities have to be capable of sustaining a lifestyle and that’s not just about money. It’s about things like facilities, green space, urban environments, cultural life, air quality (a massive issue in Cork now due to solid fuel burning in a city?!!) housing quality, affordability etc etc etc.

    All of the above spills into transport systems and commuting.


  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Roads to stop:
    Galway Ring Road, the M11 'upgrade' around Bray, the M4 widening, Dublin eastern bypass(won't happen anyway)

    they only serve to increase car commuting.

    Roads that I'd like to see built:

    M20, Port motorways to Rosslare, Foynes, Ringaskiddy, finished dual carriageway to Sligo, a few bypasses and improved secondary roads across the country (all N roads should be reasonable quality and not boreens)

    Take the galway ring road for one. So you think its better for the environment that people going from Oranmore to Spiddal sit in traffic jams in Eyre Square for half an hour, than simply going around the city and getting to their destination?

    Ludicrous thinking.

    On your rural living point. Ive been in the family home in rural galway for most of the past year. Indeed, today is the one year anniversary of me working from home.

    On this half acre, one off housing site in rural galway, we have a green house and a polytunnel. We have our own well for drawing water.

    In the polytunnel we grow strawberries and grapes(and come September I'll be harvesting the grapes, crushing them to make wine).

    In the greenhouse we will have tomatoes, chillies and jalapenos.

    In the ground we have onions and potatoes. Also a cherry tree and various assortment of herbs.

    The long hot shower I had this morning was warmed through the Solar panels on the roof, which even on a gloomy day like today, gets enough power to heat water.

    No not everyone does this, but in this area most people have a few things growing. As I said in a previous post, we need to define the word sustainable.

    Whatever about carbon, my biggest environmental concern is plastic. I've stopped putting teabags in the compost after I found out Barrys teabags have plastic in them.


  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Take the galway ring road for one. So you think its better for the environment that people going from Oranmore to Spiddal sit in traffic jams in Eyre Square for half an hour, than simply going around the city and getting to their destination?

    Ludicrous thinking.

    Only 5% of the traffic was going from external to external.

    The remaining 95% of Galway traffic was made up of
    - internal to internal
    - external to internal
    - internal to external

    For internal to internal, a dedicated bus priority network along with protected cycling infrastructure would move far more people a lot faster

    For external to internal, a series of Park & Strides with secure bike parking facilities and served by bus routes would be better

    For internal to external address the 2 groups above and you have freed up a massive amount of capacity so a ring road is no longer needed.

    Your scenario involves spending over half a billion euro to address 5% of the traffic in Galway city.

    Ludicrous thinking indeed!


  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    On this half acre, one off housing site in rural galway, we have a green house and a polytunnel. We have our own well for drawing water.
    Those who adhere to Green Environmental Dogma don't update their beliefs when faced with new pertinent information which challenges their core belief system.


  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Only 5% of the traffic was going from external to external.

    The remaining 95% of Galway traffic was made up of
    - internal to internal
    - external to internal
    - internal to external

    For internal to internal, a dedicated bus priority network along with protected cycling infrastructure would move far more people a lot faster

    For external to internal, a series of Park & Strides with secure bike parking facilities and served by bus routes would be better

    For internal to external address the 2 groups above and you have freed up a massive amount of capacity so a ring road is no longer needed.

    Your scenario involves spending over half a billion euro to address 5% of the traffic in Galway city.

    Ludicrous thinking indeed!

    Your solution is reliant on buses and cycling.

    Have you experienced using buses in Galway? Is it any wonder why people opt for cars?


  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    When I think of Galway I think of windswept trees like thisEK9tX02WkAAXz6r?format=jpg&name=large
    It isn't an environment for any but the hardiest of cyclists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Where in Dublin do you propose to house these people who are only trying to provide for themselves and their families.
    Have you spared a thought for them?
    It seems you wish to only address a symptom rather than putting forward a cure.
    Either the jobs move out of Dublin or habitable, dignified and affordable accommodation is created in Dublin. Teleworking can only achieve so much and driving to a Train Station remote from their homes to bring them in to Connolly or Pearse or Heuston Stations would double the length of most journeys.

    At some stage you are just going to have to accept that the road infrastructure is not yet fully built out and needs judicious additions.

    Building more roads isn't going to help though. There's less and less road capacity in Dublin City as more space is given to sustainable modes so adding more road capacity further out is just facilitating more congestion.

    Housing is a separate issue, my view on it is that the present government should be removed and replaced with a government that will end the housing crisis through a public building program that adheres to the compact growth principles of Ireland2040. Public building programs ended all previous housing crisis but this time around we have a government that promotes profit for a small number of overseas individuals at the expense of housing the population.


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  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Housing is a separate issue, my view on it is that the present government should be removed and replaced with a government that will end the housing crisis through a public building program that adheres to the compact growth principles of Ireland2040. Public building programs ended all previous housing crisis but this time around we have a government that promotes profit for a small number of overseas individuals at the expense of housing the population.
    Don't you think your time would be better spent agitating there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Cant wait to see my great granny in Galway go from the Hospital to the park and ride, and then get on the bike and cycle home.


  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    When I think of Galway I think of windswept trees like thisEK9tX02WkAAXz6r?format=jpg&name=large
    It isn't an environment for any but the hardiest of cyclists.

    You should have been here the last 3 days. With gusts of 80kph, its tricycles we need, not bicycles.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I think one of the key problems is Ireland hasn’t been good at cities or urban development. Great cities don’t happen by accident.

    The early state followed a rural-centric model of development. Every boreen was paved and electricity was brought to every house but the cities were largely left lie. Big industrial cities were 'too English', we needed to dance at crossroads and sell eachother knitwear according DeValera.
    Our cities have very limited self governance compared to almost any other examples I can think of. It would be normal for Dublin or Cork to be driving and managing their own public transit networks, raising financing and everything else if this were in continental Europe or even the US.

    I'm apprehensive of that. DCC are a dusty bunch of anti progress loons who oppose development above 4 floors and even then are generally anti development, just look how they failed to handle the liffey cycle route, college green, the proposed docklands bridges, building heights, the anpr yellow box cameras, their housing stock, general maintenance etc. The state recently had to remove their power to set height limits because they couldn't come to a more mature attitude to development.

    Cork CC recently proved that they simply cannot even manage a short bus lane (Patrick Street). I don't see how giving these people more power solves anything.

    Limerick has recently moved to a directly elected mayor model, we'll see how that pans out but tbh I don't think local democracy works here.


  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Cant wait to see my great granny in Galway go from the Hospital to the park and ride, and then get on the bike and cycle home.

    True story: Old Mrs Morissey near me was still cycling to Mass everyday until the age of 80. She was feeding cows one day and got knocked over and broke her hip, and that was the end of the cycling. I met her on the road about a month after the hip break, she was climbing over a gate after feeding calves.

    However, just because Mrs Morissey was still cycling at 80, it doesn't mean the rest of the population can. Personally, to get me to cycle in Galway city, I would want danger money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Take the galway ring road for one. So you think its better for the environment that people going from Oranmore to Spiddal sit in traffic jams in Eyre Square for half an hour, than simply going around the city and getting to their destination?

    Nope, I think the city should implement the busconnects project in full and reduce car commuting by half.
    On your rural living point. Ive been in the family home in rural galway for most of the past year. Indeed, today is the one year anniversary of me working from home.

    On this half acre, one off housing site in rural galway, we have a green house and a polytunnel. We have our own well for drawing water.

    In the polytunnel we grow strawberries and grapes(and come September I'll be harvesting the grapes, crushing them to make wine).

    In the greenhouse we will have tomatoes, chillies and jalapenos.

    In the ground we have onions and potatoes. Also a cherry tree and various assortment of herbs.

    The long hot shower I had this morning was warmed through the Solar panels on the roof, which even on a gloomy day like today, gets enough power to heat water.

    That sounds nice, well done you.
    No not everyone does this, but in this area most people have a few things growing. As I said in a previous post, we need to define the word sustainable.

    Sustainability is using a resource or resources in a manor which does not negatively impact the ability of future generations to use the same resource and the use of the resource should not have secondary negative impacts on future generations.

    Almost no people in the western world currently live lives that are truly sustainable so we have the terms more/less sustainable. For example driving an electric car is more sustainable than driving because you've used less resources and left less waste as a result of that action. Using a gas boiler is more sustainable than using an oil boiler etc. Even though these aren't 'perfect' solutions they are 'more sustainable'.
    Whatever about carbon, my biggest environmental concern is plastic. I've stopped putting teabags in the compost after I found out Barrys teabags have plastic in them.

    Agreed, government needs to take real action here to reduce packaging in supermarkets and eliminate single use plastics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Have you experienced using buses in Galway? Is it any wonder why people opt for cars?

    This is why busconnects is vastly superior solution with 5% of the pricetag. The proposed bypass isn't going to solve anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    The reason for that though is the city councils have no role in most people’s lives and aren’t seen to have any involvement in things like transit systems.

    I would suspect most people don’t even know or care who their local councillors are because they don’t have any role in anything meaningful.

    It also results in the likes of DCC being a talking shop for protest candidates wanting a platform as the council itself has no real role in anything particular and authority is wielded largely by the executive. So the result is you get people in there on student politics like rants, as that’s the level of power the chamber wields and the city’s residents are barely even aware of what it does as it has no relevance to them.

    Cork City Council found itself against a local media campaign claiming the city centre was impassable due to a few hours of pedestrian only access on a busy shopping street with 180+ stores that was orchestrated by a few loud voices. The net result of that was people assumed the city centre was disrupted and didn’t come in, when the reality was the opposite.

    But also on things like enforcement of bus lanes - even that isn’t a council issue and depends on the Gardai as, unlike almost everywhere else in the world there’s no local police. If you’re in a city on the continent or in the USA, the local police (answerable to city hall) enforce traffic rules. Here for some reason that’s a matter for the national parliament.

    We haven’t quite moved beyond the days when there used to be Dail Questions to the Minister for Posts & Telegraphs about the dial on the phone-box in Westmorland Street or the light bulb in the one on the South Mall.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Don't you think your time would be better spent agitating there.

    I won't tolerate any further personal negative commentary on me, what I spend MY time on and general off topic personal abuse. You've been warned already, desist and move on.


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  • Posts: 2,077 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cars are the only practical solution in many parts of Ireland. We need to make these as green as possible. Public transport is fine if you live in Dublin. It's shockingly bad even in Cork city, the bus timetable and even the real time tracking is a work of fiction with regular "ghost" buses that mysteriously are 1 minute away and never show up, and then others that show up with no indication at all. I am convinced there is a warp in the space time continuum that wanders around Cork city centre that swallows buses whole and spits them back out at random locations far from where they originally were.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The reason for that though is the city councils have no role in most people’s lives and aren’t seen to have any involvement in things like transit systems.

    I would suspect most people don’t even know or care who their local councillors are because they don’t have any role in anything meaningful.

    It also results in the likes of DCC being a talking shop for protest candidates wanting a platform as the council itself has no real role in anything particular and authority is wielded largely by the executive. So the result is you get people in there on student politics like rants, as that’s the level of power the chamber wields and the city’s residents are barely even aware of what it does as it has no relevance to them.

    Cork City Council found itself against a local media campaign claiming the city centre was impassable due to a few hours of pedestrian only access on a busy shopping street with 180+ stores that was orchestrated by a few loud voices. The net result of that was people assumed the city centre was disrupted and didn’t come in, when the reality was the opposite.

    But also on things like enforcement of bus lanes - even that isn’t a council issue and depends on the Gardai as, unlike almost everywhere else in the world there’s no local police. If you’re in a city on the continent or in the USA, the local police (answerable to city hall) enforce traffic rules. Here for some reason that’s a matter for the national parliament.

    We haven’t quite moved beyond the days when there used to be Dail Questions to the Minister for Posts & Telegraphs about the dial on the phone-box in Westmorland Street or the light bulb in the one on the South Mall.

    Perhaps you're right. I can see how councils being crap means more power taken off them and then they're crap because they have no power and that's a complete cycle. We'll see how Limerick goes but as it stands I think most people are reluctant to give real power to DCC to fly Palestinian flags and build white water rafting facilities.

    If we could abolish lord mayors I think that would help.


  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cars are the only practical solution in many parts of Ireland. We need to make these as green as possible. Public transport is fine if you live in Dublin. It's shockingly bad even in Cork city, the bus timetable and even the real time tracking is a work of fiction with regular "ghost" buses that mysteriously are 1 minute away and never show up, and then others that show up with no indication at all. I am convinced there is a warp in the space time continuum that wanders around Cork city centre that swallows buses whole and spits them back out at random locations far from where they originally were.

    That happens in Dublin as well. There was a thread in the Software development forum and this came up. One poster was a developer on the real time planning app and he said it calculates based part on real time and part on statistics. :confused:

    But yeah, its not just cork where ghost busses exist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,992 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Just because you're in a one off growing vegetables doesn't mean you are sustainable. It's far more sustainable for people to be in blocks of apartments all buying vegetables grown commercially for the supermarket. These apartments can share services and take up less land and resources.
    I grow my own vegetables in the city but still go to Lidl etc just like one off house people.
    Do people really think it would be more sustainable for everyone to live in a one off and grow a few vegetables?
    Do people think everyone should be allowed build a one off if that's how they want to live? Or should we be moving away from allowing them?


  • Posts: 2,077 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That happens in Dublin as well. There was a thread in the Software development forum and this came up. One poster was a developer on the real time planning app and he said it calculates based part on real time and part on statistics. :confused:

    But yeah, its not just cork where ghost busses exist.

    First thing that's needed is a root and branch reform of our public sector transport service. Without that it's all a waste of time and money.


  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Do people think everyone should be allowed build a one off if that's how they want to live? Or should we be moving away from allowing them?
    Not everyone and not even the majority want to live in one-off housing. Some do because it is the mode of living they want for themselves.
    Some others only wish to do so because the alternative is undesirable due to plain unaffordability, poor value for money of the "product" offered in denser housing solutions or social disadvantages of living living in high density housing such as anti-social activity within the developments or within the urban areas or simply access to better schools.
    Don't demonize the former who demand little of society and focus on the latter who would live in more urban locations if it afforded them a better quality of life than the one offered by living rurally.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,992 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I mean, no one is going to take your one off from you or anyone else, and it's likely they'll just kept being built the way politics are here. But it's a disaster, planning wise. People living in close communities and sharing resources is what is best for the country overall, but we're a bit screwed in Ireland given the landscape is just peppered with one offs all over the place. Very hard to work around that kind of scattered population, which is why we will keep building roads and which is why we'll have more and more cars on the roads.
    The countryside is badly planned, but so are our cities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Perhaps you're right. I can see how councils being crap means more power taken off them and then they're crap because they have no power and that's a complete cycle. We'll see how Limerick goes but as it stands I think most people are reluctant to give real power to DCC to fly Palestinian flags and build white water rafting facilities.

    If we could abolish lord mayors I think that would help.

    Again though, the Limerick setup is a bit weird:

    A) It’s not a city mayor. Limerick County & City Council were merged. So you could well end up with the Mayor of Limerick driving policies that are geared towards rural Limerick rather than the city. (That wouldn’t been the case in Cork City as it’s not a merged authority.)

    B) There is no clarity in what the powers being given to the mayor will be. That was the main reason the plebiscite failed in Cork. Voters were being asked to vote on a policy that hadn’t been defined. There was no sense of what the Mayor would do, what powers they would have or anything else else and it turned into a storm about their pay rates.

    I mean it should have been focused on what powers were being devolved. If you had a discussion around say of public transit for example, it would have been a more useful in Cork.

    I remember voters not even being aware the plebiscite was on or what it was all about when they turned up in the polling station! The communication of it was an absolute mess.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Not everyone and not even the majority want to live in one-off housing. Some do because it is the mode of living they want for themselves.
    Some others only wish to do so because the alternative is undesirable due to plain unaffordability, poor value for money of the "product" offered in denser housing solutions or social disadvantages of living living in high density housing such as anti-social activity within the developments or within the urban areas or simply access to better schools.
    Don't demonize the former who demand little of society and focus on the latter who would live in more urban locations if it afforded them a better quality of life than the one offered by living rurally.

    Who demand little of society?

    LOL as they say.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Any more comments with personal attacks is going to get an infraction or ban. Seriously, there’s no need for it.

    — moderator
    Don't you think your time would be better spent agitating there.

    Any more posts like this and you’re getting a ban.


    — moderator
    cgcsb wrote: »
    I won't tolerate any further personal negative commentary on me, what I spend MY time on and general off topic personal abuse. You've been warned already, desist and move on.

    You can use the report a post feature next time — replies like this aren’t acceptable because they are viewed as backseat moding.

    — moderator


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Who demand little of society?

    LOL as they say.

    I know the point you’re trying to make and that would be valid, but can everybody please drop the LoL type of comments? It’s not helpful in these types of threads where people are already up in arms.

    — moderator


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  • Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    monument wrote: »
    Any more comments with personal attacks is going to get an infraction or ban. Seriously, there’s no need for it.

    — moderator



    Any more posts like this and you’re getting a ban.
    You need to explain that. I genuinely don't see what was offensive in that post if I've taken it at face value that the poster wants to improve the living environment of people. How could I have expressed that more succinctly and dispassionately?


  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Your solution is reliant on buses and cycling.

    Have you experienced using buses in Galway? Is it any wonder why people opt for cars?

    Yes I have. Now that I've sold my car I get around by trains, buses, bikes & walking.

    The GTS/Bus Connects program for Galway will see a spine that runs from one end of Galway to the other which will be used by all bus routes at some point in their route. This will allow for free flowing buses that will have designated lanes and priority measures at junctions allowing them to move before cars where pinch points exist.

    When it comes to cities like Galway, you have to decide whether you want to prioritize people or cars.

    If you choose people, then the hierarchy of users becomes this
    1st - Pedestrians
    2nd - Cyclists
    3rd - Buses
    4th - Freight & Taxi's
    5th - Private cars

    This hierarchy has been adopted as part of the National Planning Framework and is what the GTS strategy is built on.

    The roads in Galway are at or above capacity for cars. The population is set to increase by 50% over the next 25 years. It is physically impossible to get 50% more cars through the city roads.

    If you'd like to learn more and see why the ring road is pointless, take a look at some of the following posts here, here, here, here and here where I have already addressed many of the points raised in the last few posts here

    Also a good write up in a local paper here as to why this road will do more harm than good for Galway


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,992 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I think the ring road in Galway will happen eventually, and it will lead to more sprawl and car reliance. Can't see it going any other way, most people want to drive everywhere in this country.


  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think the ring road in Galway will happen eventually, and it will lead to more sprawl and car reliance. Can't see it going any other way, most people want to drive everywhere in this country.

    I think its been shown across the world at this stage now, that if you build the right infrastructure, people will use it

    Walking - Separate and safety measures at crossing points
    Bikes - Protected lanes & junctions
    Buses - Lanes & priority measures at junctions

    Coupled with de-prioritisation of private car travel and viable alternatives (Park & Stride + the above list) and you will see a change.

    Just requires the investment


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    You need to explain that. I genuinely don't see what was offensive in that post if I've taken it at face value that the poster wants to improve the living environment of people. How could I have expressed that more succinctly and dispassionately?

    Ban for three days —

    For clarity: there’s been enough warnings now and you were asked just the other day to read the C&T charter before posting again. If you had read it you would have seen the bit about replying to moderation in-thread.

    — moderator


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,992 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I think its been shown across the world at this stage now, that if you build the right infrastructure, people will use it

    Walking - Separate and safety measures at crossing points
    Bikes - Protected lanes & junctions
    Buses - Lanes & priority measures at junctions

    Coupled with de-prioritisation of private car travel and viable alternatives (Park & Stride + the above list) and you will see a change.

    Just requires the investment

    I agree, but it wont happen, they'll build more roads, this is Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,437 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The early state followed a rural-centric model of development. Every boreen was paved and electricity was brought to every house but the cities were largely left lie. Big industrial cities were 'too English', we needed to dance at crossroads and sell eachother knitwear according DeValera.



    I'm apprehensive of that. DCC are a dusty bunch of anti progress loons who oppose development above 4 floors and even then are generally anti development, just look how they failed to handle the liffey cycle route, college green, the proposed docklands bridges, building heights, the anpr yellow box cameras, their housing stock, general maintenance etc. The state recently had to remove their power to set height limits because they couldn't come to a more mature attitude to development.

    Cork CC recently proved that they simply cannot even manage a short bus lane (Patrick Street). I don't see how giving these people more power solves anything.

    Limerick has recently moved to a directly elected mayor model, we'll see how that pans out but tbh I don't think local democracy works here.


    even in the uk local democracy is about having something to palm things off on so the government can then cut services and simply blame the councils for it as they have cut their funding to the bone.
    local democracy works in europe, it doesn't work in countries like ireland or the uk.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,437 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Take the galway ring road for one. So you think its better for the environment that people going from Oranmore to Spiddal sit in traffic jams in Eyre Square for half an hour, than simply going around the city and getting to their destination?

    no, but building the ring road doesn't do anything different but move the problem elsewhere and will ultimately increase the traffic for no benefit.
    that is why it's just not worth our while building it.
    Ludicrous thinking.

    no, it's necessary thinking to cut car usage by making it such that people would call for other alternatives.
    Your solution is reliant on buses and cycling.

    Have you experienced using buses in Galway? Is it any wonder why people opt for cars?

    buses are unreliable because the cars are taking up most of the space and there is nothing in terms of the necessary priority measures.
    clear away space from the cars and the buses are no longer unreliable.
    realistically a mix of light and heavy rail and buses are the better option in the long term.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,682 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    I used to find driving through galway city fine because my commute was off peak anyway. Will more people working from home resolve the problem in any way?


  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It may reduce commuting by a certain % but with Galway set to grow by 50% within a short period, its only a matter of time until it all gets snarled up again


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,146 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Interesting to see this line of thinking before an Oireachtas committee:
    Dr Sloman warned, however, “it is no good investing in cycleways and public transport and at the same time building more roads”.

    In response to Deputy Jennifer Whitmore (Social Democrats), she said new road-building should be stopped as it was hard to reconcile with decarbonisation.

    “Roughly one-third of the additional emissions are from construction [ of new roads] ;one-third from increases in vehicle speeds; and one-third from induced traffic. The UK Climate Change Committee has suggested the UK should prioritise broadband investment over road network expansion,” she added.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cycle-superhighways-must-be-part-of-decarbonising-transport-committee-hears-1.4518212


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,001 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    You can't just say we're not going to build a road from Cork to limerick - or from Cork to carrigaline ,
    But at the same time you can't just build a road only project and expect it to fix all problems ,- you'll never catch up ...

    So a large current project like the dunkettle interchange - the biggest transport hub in the south of the country has no room for a public transport element ... ( The planners couldn't just ignore any of the 4 major roads that converge there , or the minor roads to little island or glountain , but they can ignore anybody traveling by coach or train who really needs to change direction )
    The N 40 ,( soon to be m40 ) will be over capacity as soon as dunkettle is finished .. with no real plan to deal with this either , bar hoping that some people will get a bus eireann bus ,that travels slowly unreliably through ancient peculiar routes ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    What's covered in this tweet and the tweet it quotes is something we don't talk about enough...

    https://twitter.com/lennartnout/status/1375182579423383559


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,761 ✭✭✭Phil.x


    Public transport is rubbish and expensive.
    Today in Dublin15, there are two trains per hour going into the city centre! this is not a service.

    Dublin bus drive past stops as they are full.
    So with that happening you cannot plan arrival times.
    Add young kids into the mix and it's a nightmare, and I'm speaking from experience.

    Build more roads.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,146 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Phil.x wrote: »
    Public transport is rubbish and expensive.
    Today in Dublin15, there are two trains per hour going into the city centre! this is not a service.

    Dublin bus drive past stops as they are full.
    So with that happening you cannot plan arrival times.
    Add young kids into the mix and it's a nightmare, and I'm speaking from experience.

    Build more roads.

    I think you mean put on more trains and busses? :confused: Clearly the demand and need is there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,001 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Phil.x wrote: »
    Public transport is rubbish and expensive.
    Today in Dublin15, there are two trains per hour going into the city centre! this is not a service.

    Dublin bus drive past stops as they are full.
    So with that happening you cannot plan arrival times.
    Add young kids into the mix and it's a nightmare, and I'm speaking from experience.

    Build more roads.

    Or just put more buses on .. ( and speed up the current ones )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Or just put more buses on .. ( and speed up the current ones )


    I often thought instead of putting trains on tracks just pave it and put a load of buses on it. You could widen the stations and have parking bays for the buses.
    If one broke down just drive it out of the way.


    Maybe when you build motorways stick in lanes solely for buses too. And have a big park and ride near every town that doubles as the bus station right beside the motorway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I often thought instead of putting trains on tracks just pave it and put a load of buses on it. You could widen the stations and have parking bays for the buses.
    If one broke down just drive it out of the way.

    One train carries as many passengers as approx 16 buses. This is where that concept falls down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    donvito99 wrote: »
    One train carries as many passengers as approx 16 buses. This is where that concept falls down.


    So get 16 busses.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    So get 16 busses.

    And pay 16 more drivers for each train we currently have?


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