Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

straight · 28-11-2020 10:26pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Some of his cows came from a neighbour of mine who’s heading towards 400-ish xbreds at the last count. I might break the piggy bank and buy a few heifer calves off him in the Spring. He was looking for €300/head last Feb but I’m guessing that might even rise in 2021 given the price of all dairy stock at the moment.

He was selling them cheap at 300. I get 400 for pedigrees. Plenty demand.

Mooooo · 28-11-2020 10:55pm

straight wrote: »

But how are coop averages so low. 420 is fairly good with a young herd and low feeding alright I suppose. But he had alot of reseeding done and long grazing season and the best cows money could buy.

Are they that low?, coop report avg, they still have me in the winter group for some reason, for Jan to Sept is 391, 3 months left to go. Not sure what the spring one is. Dairygold

GrasstoMilk · 28-11-2020 11:25pm

straight wrote: »

But how are coop averages so low. 420 is fairly good with a young herd and low feeding alright I suppose. But he had alot of reseeding done and long grazing season and the best cows money could buy.

I would say some of it is guys having cull cows in the herd and the solids being spread out over cows that aren't producing milk
Happened here this year, had 15 culls till the start of April and we've a nice bit less sent per cow on the coop report than whats actually sold

And then there is a good bit of poor breeding out there too

Dara is a lovely guy, met him a few times
Very down to earth and clued in
He'll have a great herd of cows in time
Delighted for him

blackdog1 · 29-11-2020 12:13am

Mooooo wrote: »

Are they that low?, coop report avg, they still have me in the winter group for some reason, for Jan to Sept is 391, 3 months left to go. Not sure what the spring one is. Dairygold

350 kg is the average for spring. Top 10% is 404

green daries · 29-11-2020 1:35am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Nailed it.
If farmers took it on themselves to act responsibly it would help try and keep the status quo. Unfortunately this probably won’t happen and only tightening regulations will force the issue.

4 Farmers round me puming away spreading slurry the Last while its a joke for anyone who is trying to comply

Water John · 29-11-2020 1:52am

green daries wrote: »

4 Farmers round me puming away spreading slurry the Last while its a joke for anyone who is trying to comply

Is it 2022 when the lad in the sky will be checking you every two weeks?

older by the day · 29-11-2020 3:35am

I'm wondering. I'm getting a new tank and a new heater and stronger esb. I'm asking now before I make a mistake. How many are on night rate electricity. My collection is at 1 in the day and I don't milk early, usually drop kids to school. Next thing is , there a difference in emerson heating tanks. Do you let in on or a timer. Are they all the same. It's great to be able to ask other farmers. Thanks in advance.

mahoney_j · 29-11-2020 10:17am

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I would say some of it is guys having cull cows in the herd and the solids being spread out over cows that aren't producing milk
Happened here this year, had 15 culls till the start of April and we've a nice bit less sent per cow on the coop report than whats actually sold

And then there is a good bit of poor breeding out there too

Dara is a lovely guy, met him a few times
Very down to earth and clued in
He'll have a great herd of cows in time
Delighted for him

Would of thought by now most lads know if fattening cull cows u change them to beef ainmals in purpose and this takes them out of equation for milk when dried off

Gillespy · 29-11-2020 10:18am

green daries wrote: »

4 Farmers round me puming away spreading slurry the Last while its a joke for anyone who is trying to comply

It's drier now than it was ten days either side of the 15th Oct deadline. At least here, I couldn't even get the last of the dung out before that deadline. A arbitrary date doesn't mean it's responsible to be spreading on wet ground that's only getting wetter. Stupid calendar farming coupled with umbilical spreading with tractors that can travel on waterlogged fields causes more problems than it stops.

whelan2 · 29-11-2020 10:20am

Cows housed here well before 15th October. Alot of rain has fallen since then.

cosatron · 29-11-2020 10:30am

whelan2 wrote: »

Cows housed here well before 15th October. Alot of rain has fallen since then.

How’s the new shed going

straight · 29-11-2020 10:33am

Gillespy wrote: »

It's drier now than it was ten days either side of the 15th Oct deadline. At least here, I couldn't even get the last of the dung out before that deadline. A arbitrary date doesn't mean it's responsible to be spreading on wet ground that's only getting wetter. Stupid calendar farming coupled with umbilical spreading with tractors that can travel on waterlogged fields causes more problems than it stops.

Same as alot of their regs. They do more harm than good in general. You can spread parlour washings all year.

whelan2 · 29-11-2020 11:20am

cosatron wrote: »

How’s the new shed going

It's great. I dont know myself

GrasstoMilk · 29-11-2020 11:49am

mahoney_j wrote: »

Would of thought by now most lads know if fattening cull cows u change them to beef ainmals in purpose and this takes them out of equation for milk when dried off

Well I didn't think of it and I'd say alot of farmers don't, its been mentioned a few times in my discussion group over the years, I'd say its common enough

Buford T. Justice XIX · 29-11-2020 12:06pm

older by the day wrote: »

I'm wondering. I'm getting a new tank and a new heater and stronger esb. I'm asking now before I make a mistake. How many are on night rate electricity. My collection is at 1 in the day and I don't milk early, usually drop kids to school. Next thing is , there a difference in emerson heating tanks. Do you let in on or a timer. Are they all the same. It's great to be able to ask other farmers. Thanks in advance.

If you're putting in an icebank then you really need to put in night rate to get most of your milk cooled at the cheapest rate. And a plate cooler is needed with either direct expansion or icebank to precool the milk, I'd say.

We upgraded to power into the parlour 15 or 16 years ago, I should have put in a stronger cable because the demand for electricity grows every year so that might be something to look out for as well.

The immersion we have here is set to come on at 12 at night and run till 9 am. With the time change, it's 11 pm to 8am until the clocks change back. We have a switch to turn on heating during the day if we're doing a double hot wash but that's only one day a week. We switch it on after the morning acid wash and leave it on till the afternoon caustic wash about 3.

mahoney_j · 29-11-2020 12:06pm

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Well I didn't think of it and I'd say alot of farmers don't, its been mentioned a few times in my discussion group over the years, I'd say its common enough

Not saying your doing it but lots are or aren’t and using it to bump or inflate milk solids sold .why I don’t know ....lots are changing empty cows to beef ainmals after scanning in August and September too also inflated figures .
Having a look at all pages of performance report you’ll find the gaps tho .leads to disillusionment in groups too which is understandable

K.G. · 29-11-2020 12:12pm

Just on the coop average solids for cows,alot of fellas dont put in dry off dates so the cow stays in milk until she leaves the farm and if she is fattened on grass could be june /july /august

GrasstoMilk · 29-11-2020 12:28pm

K.G. wrote: »

Just on the coop average solids for cows,alot of fellas dont put in dry off dates so the cow stays in milk until she leaves the farm and if she is fattened on grass could be june /july /august

Yeah this is what I was trying to say aswell

mahoney_j · 29-11-2020 12:37pm

K.G. wrote: »

Just on the coop average solids for cows,alot of fellas dont put in dry off dates so the cow stays in milk until she leaves the farm and if she is fattened on grass could be june /july /august

Again put in dry off date in herdplus and change purpose to beef honestly thought most lads are up to speed on this the whole herd plus programme is excellent if used right it’s only in recent times im hearing tegasc advisors explaining this

richie123 · 29-11-2020 12:39pm

Gillespy wrote: »

It's drier now than it was ten days either side of the 15th Oct deadline. At least here, I couldn't even get the last of the dung out before that deadline. A arbitrary date doesn't mean it's responsible to be spreading on wet ground that's only getting wetter. Stupid calendar farming coupled with umbilical spreading with tractors that can travel on waterlogged fields causes more problems than it stops.

What was wrong with September?
What a lot of lads don't realize is slurry spread even in dry conditions in October and November will still end up in drains waterways.. because grass just doesn't have the same uptake at that time of year.
In this day and age with all the grants available there's no excuse not to have adequate storage.

straight · 29-11-2020 12:59pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

Again put in dry off date in herdplus and change purpose to beef honestly thought most lads are up to speed on this the whole herd plus programme is excellent if used right it’s only in recent times im hearing tegasc advisors explaining this

I would think once you put in the dry off date and then that cow is out until you record a birth off her again. No need to change to beef?

mahoney_j · 29-11-2020 1:19pm

straight wrote: »

I would think once you put in the dry off date and then that cow is out until you record a birth off her again. No need to change to beef?

If she is empty and u ain’t carrying her to milk again put in dry off date and change to beef ainmal what I do with culls here is milk right up to dry off 22/12 give/take put that in as dry off date then on 01 janurary those cows are changed to beef ainmals they will be gone off farm by time calving starts lads that are finishing cows in April May do same

mf240 · 29-11-2020 1:41pm

green daries wrote: »

4 Farmers round me puming away spreading slurry the Last while its a joke for anyone who is trying to comply

Its Ireland. We only view rules as suggestions.

mf240 · 29-11-2020 1:45pm

jaymla627 wrote: »

By the look of the head on him if he caught a glimpse of himself in the mirror he'd try and have a go on himself

Wouldn't believe everything I read by a long shot, but no need for that either.

straight · 29-11-2020 1:46pm

mf240 wrote: »

Its Ireland. We only view rules as suggestions.

Well alot of rules are ridiculous. Lads out with the umbilical on jan 11th in the snow or before a storm is worse than spreading it now.

Wildsurfer · 29-11-2020 2:04pm

straight wrote: »

Well alot of rules are ridiculous. Lads out with the umbilical on jan 11th in the snow or before a storm is worse than spreading it now.

You are right, closed period should be until Feb 1st at least.

straight · 29-11-2020 2:17pm

Wildsurfer wrote: »

You are right, closed period should be until Feb 1st at least.

Ya, cos it never rains or snows in February. Doing the right thing is best, aka good farming practice. I've oceans of storage (pun intended) but there's no guarantee of weather in January or February to get it spread. That's when you see lads out with the rain gun. I'm putting out parlour washings these days on good conditions and it will grow grass over December.

richie123 · 29-11-2020 2:26pm

straight wrote: »

Well alot of rules are ridiculous. Lads out with the umbilical on jan 11th in the snow or before a storm is worse than spreading it now.

That's not right either it should be February first and yes it could be pouring rain at that time too but at least it's closer to grass growing season and ..less chance of losing nutrients.
Some farmers especially dairy men need to up the game regarding storage...or it'll be imposed on them.no more head in the sand, if you haven't enough storage to get through a long winter cut your numbers or up storage capacity.

Wildsurfer · 29-11-2020 2:39pm

straight wrote: »

Ya, cos it never rains or snows in February. Doing the right thing is best, aka good farming practice. I've oceans of storage (pun intended) but there's no guarantee of weather in January or February to get it spread. That's when you see lads out with the rain gun. I'm putting out parlour washings these days on good conditions and it will grow grass over December.

Would you accept that traditionally in wintertime we get higher rainfall and less growth therefore more runoff of nutrients is likely? If there was no closed period and it was let up to farmers own good judgement to spread only when suitable do you think we would all have invested in as much storage as we have? Do you think you wouldn't see lads spreading on snow and the day before a deluge? Of course not. And if all were to adhere to best farming practice as you do then nobody would be out with rain guns in Jan and Feb either. We need enough storage to get us to the point when it safe to spread, not just until Jan 10th.

alps · 29-11-2020 2:45pm

straight wrote: »

Well alot of rules are ridiculous. Lads out with the umbilical on jan 11th in the snow or before a storm is worse than spreading it now.

The rules are straightforward....no spreading until the 13th, and only then if conditions allow..

It's not rocket science...

There is actually no other way to write the rule...

alps · 29-11-2020 2:51pm

straight wrote: »

I'm putting out parlour washings these days on good conditions and it will grow grass over December.

A lot more need to consider this and put facilities in place for it.

What kind of set up have for the dairy washings? Were you able to get grant aid, or is it as feasible without?

This type of facility would not only be of benefit to the closed period but all throughout the year most likely..

straight · 29-11-2020 3:53pm

alps wrote: »

A lot more need to consider this and put facilities in place for it.

What kind of set up have for the dairy washings? Were you able to get grant aid, or is it as feasible without?

This type of facility would not only be of benefit to the closed period but all throughout the year most likely..

I don't know what feasibility has to do with farming. I couldn't afford to farm only that I made money somewhere else to allow me to farm.

green daries · 29-11-2020 5:07pm

richie123 wrote: »

What was wrong with September?
What a lot of lads don't realize is slurry spread even in dry conditions in October and November will still end up in drains waterways.. because grass just doesn't have the same uptake at that time of year.
In this day and age with all the grants available there's no excuse not to have adequate storage.

absolutely this I've built anyone who adhered to the regulations or as near as built as well there's no excuse if you can load on cows and fertiliser you can put in tanks its these people that are going to cause problems for everyone else just because you can travel ground doesn't mean you can or should spread the dates were picked to do with the yearly average growth rates and this time of the year theres huge nutrients lost as soil temperatures are too low
Dairy washings are allowed and should remain so the science backs it up but it clearly wasn't washings being spread around here

alps · 29-11-2020 6:31pm

straight wrote: »

I don't know what feasibility has to do with farming. I couldn't afford to farm only that I made money somewhere else to allow me to farm.

Lost for words...

Gillespy · 29-11-2020 7:03pm

richie123 wrote: »

What was wrong with September?
What a lot of lads don't realize is slurry spread even in dry conditions in October and November will still end up in drains waterways.. because grass just doesn't have the same uptake at that time of year.
In this day and age with all the grants available there's no excuse not to have adequate storage.

Farms have too much grass in September to do anything but follow them as they graze and if you're depending on contractors to spread it for you, it's not really possible.

Not true slurry spread in a dry October ends up in drains. Who told you that? Grass grows well into the winter and never stops unless it freezes and why would it end up in drains if it didn't grow.

On the subject of storage, my ideal world would be satisfying the council or department requirement for storage then them leaving me alone to do what and when I please. Nail me if I do something stupid. But no one will want to waste slurry and the deadline only means it is fired out in a mad rush. All slurry contractors will tell you how busy they are because of it

straight · 29-11-2020 7:11pm

Gillespy wrote: »

Farms have too much grass in September to do anything but follow them as they graze and if you're depending on contractors to spread it for you, it's not really possible.

Not true slurry spread in a dry October ends up in drains. Who told you that? Grass grows well into the winter and never stops unless it freezes and why would it end up in drains if it didn't grow.

On the subject of storage, my ideal world would be satisfying the council or department requirement for storage then them leaving me alone to do what and when I please. Nail me if I do something stupid. But no one will want to waste slurry and the deadline only means it is fired out in a mad rush. All slurry contractors will tell you how busy they are because of it

Ya, most spring grass is grown in Oct/Nov. I believe the dates were based on average rainfall level and not growth rates. It's not too smart basing anything on averages when it comes to weather.

richie123 · 29-11-2020 7:34pm

Gillespy wrote: »

Farms have too much grass in September to do anything but follow them as they graze and if you're depending on contractors to spread it for you, it's not really possible.

Not true slurry spread in a dry October ends up in drains. Who told you that? Grass grows well into the winter and never stops unless it freezes and why would it end up in drains if it didn't grow.

On the subject of storage, my ideal world would be satisfying the council or department requirement for storage then them leaving me alone to do what and when I please. Nail me if I do something stupid. But no one will want to waste slurry and the deadline only means it is fired out in a mad rush. All slurry contractors will tell you how busy they are because of it

And June July and August ? For God's sake that's unreal
I spread slurry for a dairy man who was stuck ...his usual contractor was too busy ...right on the deadline in october.he had the whole summer to get it out in good conditions but no left it till the last minute..trust me too much grass wasn't the reason he didn't spread it in time.
There's no excuse for it none.
Have way more storage than you require.its heading that way wether men like it or not.

straight · 29-11-2020 8:03pm

richie123 wrote: »

And June July and August ? For God's sake that's unreal
I spread slurry for a dairy man who was stuck ...his usual contractor was too busy ...right on the deadline in october.he had the whole summer to get it out in good conditions but no left it till the last minute..trust me too much grass wasn't the reason he didn't spread it in time.
There's no excuse for it none.
Have way more storage than you require.its heading that way wether men like it or not.

There's messers like that everywhere I'm afraid. No organisation in their lives.

straight · 29-11-2020 8:10pm

alps wrote: »

Lost for words...

Let me explain a little. I gave up a good job to milk cows and I've worked the last few years for free as I pour all cashflow back into stock and facilities. That's not feasible but it's what I chose to do. At the moment I'm looking at buying a tractor and LESS tank for 80 - 100k. Not feasible either but it what I choose to do. I guess if I took the "best" advice I'd have loaded up with cows and wouldn't have bothered with the facilities. Maybe then I'd be "highly profitable" but that's not the direction I chose.

Mooooo · 29-11-2020 8:18pm

straight wrote: »

Let me explain a little. I gave up a good job to milk cows and I've worked the last few years for free as I pour all cashflow back into stock and facilities. That's not feasible but it's what I chose to do. At the moment I'm looking at buying a tractor and LESS tank for 80 - 100k. Not feasible either but it what I choose to do. I guess if I took the "best" advice I'd have loaded up with cows and wouldn't have bothered with the facilities. Maybe then I'd be "highly profitable" but that's not the direction I chose.

Are you saying the cows as the fulltime work aren't covering your costs. Not feasible would mean having to sell the cows...?

straight · 29-11-2020 8:30pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Are you saying the cows as the fulltime work aren't covering your costs. Not feasible would mean having to sell the cows...?

Well if I was to pay myself a wage on top of all the investment they wouldn't cover it. Luckily I'm mortgage free as savings from my job built my house and the wife's wages feed me and the kids. Fairly set up now and might start earning a wage in another year or two but I'm more interested in building a farm/herd to be proud of. That's farming as far as I'm concerned. Feel sorry for lads investing big and expecting to get rich.

Timmaay · 29-11-2020 8:46pm

straight wrote: »

Let me explain a little. I gave up a good job to milk cows and I've worked the last few years for free as I pour all cashflow back into stock and facilities. That's not feasible but it's what I chose to do. At the moment I'm looking at buying a tractor and LESS tank for 80 - 100k. Not feasible either but it what I choose to do. I guess if I took the "best" advice I'd have loaded up with cows and wouldn't have bothered with the facilities. Maybe then I'd be "highly profitable" but that's not the direction I chose.

What are the rough economics of spreading yourown slurry against contracting it all out? I contract 100% of it out here, I haven't even bothered doing the sums but I absolutely couldn't be arsed doing it myself even if someone gave me the tanker for free.

green daries · 29-11-2020 8:48pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Are you saying the cows as the fulltime work aren't covering your costs. Not feasible would mean having to sell the cows...?

If you return to dairying or new entrant teagasc any other advisory company and any other accountant including ifac will tell you to forget about a return for 5 to 7 years starting out

straight · 29-11-2020 8:52pm

Timmaay wrote: »

What are the rough economics of spreading yourown slurry against contracting it all out? I contract 100% of it out here, I haven't even bothered doing the sums but I absolutely couldn't be arsed doing it myself even if someone gave me the tanker for free.

Contractors way cheaper. No doubt about it. I'd like to follow the cows with LESS though and don't like depending/begging the contractor. When the young lads grow up a bit they might drive it for me.

Timmaay · 29-11-2020 8:53pm

straight wrote: »

Well if I was to pay myself a wage on top of all the investment they wouldn't cover it. Luckily I'm mortgage free as savings from my job built my house and the wife's wages feed me and the kids. Fairly set up now and might start earning a wage in another year or two but I'm more interested in building a farm/herd to be proud of. That's farming as far as I'm concerned. Feel sorry for lads investing big and expecting to get rich.

I'd actually say thats the very realistic approach, expect not to be able to draw down much a wage the 1st few years, I think I drew down 12k/yr the 1st few years here, while working silly hours, and simple as is the farm needed every penny of reinvested. I was in my mid 20s and the outlook I had was to work hard in my 20s to setup myself for my 30s onwards. And I've plenty optimistism for dairy opportunities moving forward but you absolutely need to be realistic about rents, investments and nope there are plenty ways to get rich a hell of alot easier ha.

green daries · 29-11-2020 8:54pm

richie123 wrote: »

And June July and August ? For God's sake that's unreal
I spread slurry for a dairy man who was stuck ...his usual contractor was too busy ...right on the deadline in october.he had the whole summer to get it out in good conditions but no left it till the last minute..trust me too much grass wasn't the reason he didn't spread it in time.
There's no excuse for it none.
Have way more storage than you require.its heading that way wether men like it or not.

Everyone is going to have to submit a nitrates plan similar to the derogation one and that plan will have to be done by your planner/ teagasc etc they will have to stand over that plan as in legally so not enough storage no licence to milk cows/ fatten cattle. no access to single payments its the way its headed it won't be hard for the department to enforce it's going to be left back to the farmer to comply with the regulations

Mooooo · 30-11-2020 12:20am

https://teagasc.ie/news--events/daily/dairy/Johnstown-Castle-Winter-Milk-Trials---November-update.php

Teagasc winter milk herd trials

Mooooo · 30-11-2020 12:25am

green daries wrote: »

If you return to dairying or new entrant teagasc any other advisory company and any other accountant including ifac will tell you to forget about a return for 5 to 7 years starting out

Fair enough, anyone starting a business will be tight enough in terms of drawings in the initial period, which is in order to get the business up and going but after that period if it doesn't pay it's way and provide an income it would be unfeasible. There is a difference between getting up and running and ongoing feasibility.

Mf310 · 30-11-2020 12:39am

green daries wrote: »

If you return to dairying or new entrant teagasc any other advisory company and any other accountant including ifac will tell you to forget about a return for 5 to 7 years starting out

Ill be another to disagree, started into dairy in 2018 bought heifers as maidens put them in calf built a second hand parlour 80 cows and milking 90 this year, the farm has never been as profitable even with the added debt. Not saying theres a big wage coming out of the farm but it would be comfortable in that I can reinvest into the farm as it is. Bought a new tractor this year, something as you say teagasc/ifac in their 5 year plan couldnt have considered at all. After doing lots of concrete around the yard over last 2 years and making things simple . To anyone wondering will they make money from 50/60 cows I would have no doubt in saying go for it it will be better than beef or sheep any day of the week and you will get paid for the commitment.

green daries · 30-11-2020 12:41am

Mooooo wrote: »

Fair enough, anyone starting a business will be tight enough in terms of drawings in the initial period, which is in order to get the business up and going but after that period if it doesn't pay it's way and provide an income it would be unfeasible. There is a difference between getting up and running and ongoing feasibility.

Ya totally agree mooo sorry its not clear from my post that I think this start up phase is going to hide an overall profitability problem on a lot but not all dairy farms had lean times myself when I took over 15odd years ago but anyone in dairy who thinks it's low cost all the way and dammit to anyone else is in for a rude awaking in the next few years the days of load up the cows and we will worry about the rest in a decade when we make a few quid is over....just my view everyone has there own take on the way forward

Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

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