General Rugby Discussion II

sydthebeat · 07-12-2017 8:07pm

No harm.

Layers upon layers of amendments have left the actual law book quite unaccessible.

And if it's taken two years to compile I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt thats going to do what it says on the tin.

07-12-2017 8:11pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

.

And if it's taken two years to compile I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt thats going to do what it says on the tin.

There is very little about the actual laws of the game, it seems to just repeatedly recommend South Africa for the 2027 rugby world cup.

Podge_irl · 07-12-2017 11:22pm

I see no harm in it - the laws themselves have not been changed they are just being presented in a (hopefully) better way.

Burkie1203 · 08-12-2017 10:47am

Simon Thomas reporting Geordan murphy to take over as cardiff blues head coach

irishbucsfan · 08-12-2017 11:01am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Simon Thomas reporting Geordan murphy to take over as cardiff blues head coach

The original story from over there was that MOC left originally due to some unhappiness about how things were organised between himself/Murph/Cockerill, I think they weren't on the best of terms. So if that was true, and it's just a rumour, then I guess it'd make sense he'd take the opportunity to move on.

Big deal though, he's been at club a very long time and I'm sure if things go well across the border he'll be watching MOC's job security like a hawk.

molloyjh · 08-12-2017 12:20pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The original story from over there was that MOC left originally due to some unhappiness about how things were organised between himself/Murph/Cockerill, I think they weren't on the best of terms. So if that was true, and it's just a rumour, then I guess it'd make sense he'd take the opportunity to move on.

Big deal though, he's been at club a very long time and I'm sure if things go well across the border he'll be watching MOC's job security like a hawk.

Did the issues not continue after MOC left? I got the impression that MOC was the good cop to Cockerills bad cop and that Murphy wasn't able to act as the buffer the same way MOC was after the Aussie moved over here. And so things went a downhill a bit during MOCs first season here.

I could be remembering that wrong though....

irishbucsfan · 08-12-2017 12:29pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Did the issues not continue after MOC left? I got the impression that MOC was the good cop to Cockerills bad cop and that Murphy wasn't able to act as the buffer the same way MOC was after the Aussie moved over here. And so things went a downhill a bit during MOCs first season here.

I could be remembering that wrong though....

I don't remember the exact story but I think it was to do with a promotion for Murphy and another guy which I think led MOC to feel he was being sidelined, then the Leinster job came up and he went for it as it was a leadership role.

irishbucsfan · 08-12-2017 12:34pm

https://twitter.com/RuaidhriOC/status/939072283603324928

Good point. Fionn Carr makes a decent coffee as well.

irishbucsfan · 08-12-2017 3:39pm

Just thinking to myself over lunch there. The biggest thing keeping players in Ireland is the IRFU's policy to only pick players in Ireland.

Players weight that up against cash. There's likely a monetary value to that. Let's take CJ Stander as an example, he might stay in Ireland if Montpellier were to offer 600k, but he might leave if they were to offer 800k (completely made up figures).

If enough players left then that policy would have to disappear. The IRFU can only go so far with it. If 10 Irish starters left in a short space of time the policy would disappear or Ireland would have to risk dropping down the rankings.

So why don't all the French owners meet together, in secret, and agree to target Irish players over a 2 year period and sign as many of them as possible by agreeing to pay over the market price. Effectively knocking down that policy by brute force. That would benefit them in the long-term because it would make it easier to sign Irish players in future if the policy is gone. And if 5 owners secretly committed to signing 2 players each it'd probably not really cost them all that much in the grand scheme of things.

08-12-2017 3:41pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just thinking to myself over lunch there. The biggest thing keeping players in Ireland is the IRFU's policy to only pick players in Ireland.

Players weight that up against cash. There's likely a monetary value to that. Let's take CJ Stander as an example, he might stay in Ireland if Montpellier were to offer 600k, but he might leave if they were to offer 800k (completely made up figures).

If enough players left then that policy would have to disappear. The IRFU can only go so far with it. If 10 Irish starters left in a short space of time the policy would disappear or Ireland would have to risk dropping down the rankings.

So why don't all the French owners meet together, in secret, and agree to target Irish players over a 2 year period and sign as many of them as possible by agreeing to pay over the market price. Effectively knocking down that policy by brute force. That would benefit them in the long-term because it would make it easier to sign Irish players in future if the policy is gone. And if 5 owners secretly committed to signing 2 players each it'd probably not really cost them all that much in the grand scheme of things.

As soon as they start offering silly money, every single squad member in those teams is going to ask for a raise.

errlloyd · 08-12-2017 3:44pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just thinking to myself over lunch there. The biggest thing keeping players in Ireland is the IRFU's policy to only pick players in Ireland.

The whole thing is a sort of two sided prisoners Dilemma alright.

The only thing I don't think you've considered is that the policy of not picking players also increases their value along with their cost. So a French owner might have to pay 800k to get POM now, but he gets him for the whole season. A 200k drop in price for a POM that disappears for a couple of weeks in the middle, and potentially the final on Lions years might not be worth it.

prawnsambo · 08-12-2017 3:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As soon as they start offering silly money, every single squad member in those teams is going to ask for a raise.

Plus once it succeded, it would by necessity fail if they started offering lower money.

Bazzo · 08-12-2017 3:45pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just thinking to myself over lunch there. The biggest thing keeping players in Ireland is the IRFU's policy to only pick players in Ireland.

Players weight that up against cash. There's likely a monetary value to that. Let's take CJ Stander as an example, he might stay in Ireland if Montpellier were to offer 600k, but he might leave if they were to offer 800k (completely made up figures).

If enough players left then that policy would have to disappear. The IRFU can only go so far with it. If 10 Irish starters left in a short space of time the policy would disappear or Ireland would have to risk dropping down the rankings.

So why don't all the French owners meet together, in secret, and agree to target Irish players over a 2 year period and sign as many of them as possible by agreeing to pay over the market price. Effectively knocking down that policy by brute force. That would benefit them in the long-term because it would make it easier to sign Irish players in future if the policy is gone. And if 5 owners secretly committed to signing 2 players each it'd probably not really cost them all that much in the grand scheme of things.

You think the French are organised enough to pull that off?

awec · 08-12-2017 3:48pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Plus once it succeded, it would by necessity fail if they started offering lower money.

Not really. The IRFU policy is a house of cards, once it collapses that's it.

There are probably a few things that could cause it to fall over. One is if the English and French manage to lure enough players, or a few of the really important players away and the IRFUs hand is forced. Alternatively, if Ireland start not picking players and results suffer the pressure on the IRFU will be enormous.

08-12-2017 3:52pm

awec wrote: »

Not really. The IRFU policy is a house of cards, once it collapses that's it.

Maybe but we've done better than the Welsh or the Scottish, South Africans and Australians and whilst the French clubs have benefited the French team as a result is a joke shop compared to where it was.

We've probably done best out of any other country and credit for that goes to the IRFU.

molloyjh · 08-12-2017 3:53pm

awec wrote: »

Not really. The IRFU policy is a house of cards, once it collapses that's it.

That's only true if we look at things from an entirely objective position, i.e. money. However there are subjective elements to it as well such as the pride of playing for your country. Then there are personal elements to boot too such as family and friends etc.

The IRFU policy is actually far from a house of cards really. It offers and trades off the non-monetary aspects of rugby and day to day life more than a French club or an English one. It's a balancing act, and so far one that they are managing very well despite the latest frenzy.

awec · 08-12-2017 3:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe but we've done better than the Welsh or the Scottish, South Africans and Australians and whilst the French clubs have benefited the French team as a result is a joke shop compared to where it was.

We've probably done best out of any other country and credit for that goes to the IRFU.

Not disputing that at all. We have done well indeed.

I personally cannot see the current situation lasting in NH rugby, it just doesn't add up. Either we'll start losing players or the financial arse will fall out of the English and French. I don't see a long term future of having highly skilled players playing in a weaker league and getting paid a fair bit less than they could otherwise be making. Hopefully it's the money thing, though that would have a bit of a ripple effect I suspect.

molloyjh · 08-12-2017 3:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe but we've done better than the Welsh or the Scottish, South Africans and Australians and whilst the French clubs have benefited the French team as a result is a joke shop compared to where it was.

We've probably done best out of any other country and credit for that goes to the IRFU.

That's a good point. If you look at the countries that have managed this stuff well you're thinking New Zealand, England and Ireland. It should come as no surprise that these are the top 3 teams in the world at the moment.

And provincially we're doing well right now too. We have 2 teams who made big impressions in the league and in Europe last season. It seems to be a very common thing to lash out at people/things, but the reality is that we are punching above our weight in rugby generally. And the IRFU deserve a lot of credit for that.

awec · 08-12-2017 3:57pm

We keep hearing about these tradeoffs like day to day life and being looked after better. Has anyone got any figures to show that Irish players have longer careers than French or English players? Or that we suffer fewer injuries? Indeed do our players even play that many fewer games a season than their English and French equivalents?

Neil3030 · 08-12-2017 4:02pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just thinking to myself over lunch there. The biggest thing keeping players in Ireland is the IRFU's policy to only pick players in Ireland.

Players weight that up against cash. There's likely a monetary value to that. Let's take CJ Stander as an example, he might stay in Ireland if Montpellier were to offer 600k, but he might leave if they were to offer 800k (completely made up figures).

If enough players left then that policy would have to disappear. The IRFU can only go so far with it. If 10 Irish starters left in a short space of time the policy would disappear or Ireland would have to risk dropping down the rankings.

So why don't all the French owners meet together, in secret, and agree to target Irish players over a 2 year period and sign as many of them as possible by agreeing to pay over the market price. Effectively knocking down that policy by brute force. That would benefit them in the long-term because it would make it easier to sign Irish players in future if the policy is gone. And if 5 owners secretly committed to signing 2 players each it'd probably not really cost them all that much in the grand scheme of things.

I'm fairly sure a targeted effort to specifically pay over the market price for Irish players would be illegal under EU competition law.

irishbucsfan · 08-12-2017 4:06pm

awec wrote: »

We keep hearing about these tradeoffs like day to day life and being looked after better. Has anyone got any figures to show that Irish players have longer careers than French or English players? Or that we suffer fewer injuries? Indeed do our players even play that many fewer games a season than their English and French equivalents?

An Irish player recently was going to move to France, had a contract sorted and everything, and pulled out of the move because a doctor who had previously worked in France told him he'd be mad to go and he should retire instead. Players all do exit medicals when leaving teams and this player completed that medical and was basically told 'you have a perfectly clean bill of health after a decade playing pro rugby, you'll be throwing that away by going to France for a year or two and here are some examples of why', and the player pulled out of the deal.

It wasn't Mike McCarthy, I know he also pulled out of a deal but this was a different Irish player who tells this story first-hand.

This isn't really data about injuries or welfare, but its just a story I heard last summer and I guess this is the sort of information that players are being given by genuinely reliable medical professionals.

Winters · 08-12-2017 4:09pm

awec wrote: »

We keep hearing about these tradeoffs like day to day life and being looked after better. Has anyone got any figures to show that Irish players have longer careers than French or English players? Or that we suffer fewer injuries? Indeed do our players even play that many fewer games a season than their English and French equivalents?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Rugby_Cup#Players_with_100_or_more_Heineken_Cup_caps

Neil3030 · 08-12-2017 4:11pm

awec wrote: »

We keep hearing about these tradeoffs like day to day life and being looked after better. Has anyone got any figures to show that Irish players have longer careers than French or English players? Or that we suffer fewer injuries? Indeed do our players even play that many fewer games a season than their English and French equivalents?

Owen Farrell, age 26, has 157 caps for Sarries.
Maro Itoje, age 23, has 74.

BOD retired on 186 Leinster caps.
POC retired on 175 Munster caps.

I don't think there's any question that top players will play fewer club games in Ireland. Whether their career is consequently lengthened, I wouldn't know.

Yeah_Right · 08-12-2017 4:12pm

errlloyd wrote: »

The whole thing is a sort of two sided prisoners Dilemma alright.

The only thing I don't think you've considered is that the policy of not picking players also increases their value along with their cost. So a French owner might have to pay 800k to get POM now, but he gets him for the whole season. A 200k drop in price for a POM that disappears for a couple of weeks in the middle, and potentially the final on Lions years might not be worth it.

It's one of the reasons the club's love former ABs. They know that they'll have them for the whole season. I'd say some of the owners must be pretty pissed about this loophole that will allow former ABs of PI heritage to switch to Samoa, Tonga or Fiji.

The Lost Sheep · 08-12-2017 4:16pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Owen Farrell, age 26, has 157 caps for Sarries.
Maro Itoje, age 23, has 74.

BOD retired on 186 Leinster caps.
POC retired on 175 Munster caps.

I don't think there's any question that top players will play fewer club games in Ireland. Whether their career is consequently lengthened, I wouldn't know.

Farrell also was playing for Sarries from age of 17. Both BOD/POC were about 20 before starting to play for provinces.
Henshaw is 24 and has 86 appearances for Connacht/Leinster would be closest to Itoje/Farrell

Neil3030 · 08-12-2017 4:21pm

Actually, this could be telling:

Ireland top all-time caps:

Caps
1 Brian O'Driscoll 133
2 Ronan O'Gara 128
3 Paul O'Connell 108
4 Rory Best 106
5 John Hayes 105
6 Peter Stringer 98
7 Jamie Heaslip 95
8 Donncha O'Callaghan 94
9 Malcolm O'Kelly 92
10 Girvan Dempsey 82
Gordon D'Arcy 82

England:

Caps
1 Jason Leonard 114
2 Jonny Wilkinson 91
3 Dylan Hartley 89
4 Rory Underwood 85
= Lawrence Dallaglio 85
6 Martin Johnson 84
7 Joe Worsley 78
8 Matt Dawson 77
= Dan Cole 77
10 Danny Care 76

France:

Caps
1 Fabien Pelous 118
2 Philippe Sella 111
3 Raphaël Ibañez 98
4 Serge Blanco 93
5 Olivier Magne 89
6 Damien Traille 86
7 Nicolas Mas 85
8 Sylvain Marconnet 84
9 Dimitri Szarzewski 83
10 Imanol Harinordoquy 82

Looking at the median(mean) caps for each top 10:
Ireland 98(102)
England 85(86)
France 88 (93)

So you could tentatively argue that playing in Ireland lengthens the international career of top players by approx 10 caps.

awec · 08-12-2017 4:23pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Farrell also was playing for Sarries from age of 17. Both BOD/POC were about 20 before starting to play for provinces.
Henshaw is 24 and has 86 appearances for Connacht/Leinster would be closest to Itoje/Farrell

BOD and POC also started to play their pro career pre-Pro12.

In the initial days of pro rugby the number of provincial games was much smaller. I think the first year of the celtic league the winning team would have played like 9 games.

They also played at a time when the league was treated as glorified filler in between european matches.

Modern players will blow BOD and POCs cap count out of the water. Henderson is another one off the top of my head, 86 Ulster caps at 25. Luke McGrath, should he become a regular international, already has a really high number of Leinster caps if I remember right.

awec · 08-12-2017 4:23pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Actually, this could be telling:

Ireland top all-time caps:

Caps
1 Brian O'Driscoll 133
2 Ronan O'Gara 128
3 Paul O'Connell 108
4 Rory Best 106
5 John Hayes 105
6 Peter Stringer 98
7 Jamie Heaslip 95
8 Donncha O'Callaghan 94
9 Malcolm O'Kelly 92
10 Girvan Dempsey 82
Gordon D'Arcy 82

England:

Caps
1 Jason Leonard 114
2 Jonny Wilkinson 91
3 Dylan Hartley 89
4 Rory Underwood 85
= Lawrence Dallaglio 85
6 Martin Johnson 84
7 Joe Worsley 78
8 Matt Dawson 77
= Dan Cole 77
10 Danny Care 76

France:

Caps
1 Fabien Pelous 118
2 Philippe Sella 111
3 Raphaël Ibañez 98
4 Serge Blanco 93
5 Olivier Magne 89
6 Damien Traille 86
7 Nicolas Mas 85
8 Sylvain Marconnet 84
9 Dimitri Szarzewski 83
10 Imanol Harinordoquy 82

Looking at the median(mean) caps for each top 10:
Ireland 98(102)
England 85(86)
France 88 (93)

So you could tentatively argue that playing in Ireland lengthens the international career of top players by approx 10 caps.

Or you could say that England and France had a stronger playing pool and therefore individual players wouldn't have run up as high a cap count.

Neil3030 · 08-12-2017 4:25pm

awec wrote: »

Or you could say that England and France had a stronger playing pool and therefore individual players wouldn't have run up as high a cap count.

You could. But I'd say players who make it to the top 10 of all time caps for their country are likely getting played whenever fit.

prawnsambo · 08-12-2017 4:27pm

awec wrote: »

Or you could say that England and France had a stronger playing pool and therefore individual players wouldn't have run up as high a cap count.

You could certainly say that about the international caps. Don't think you could with European caps though.

General Rugby Discussion II

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