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The European club rugby debacle continues part IV: the quest for peace

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    #1292
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    This is just more melodrama with no explanation.

    There may be a solid argument for why clubs shouldn't be involved in running club rugby, but it has yet to be made.

    Think like this. If a business was running Connacht rugby, they would have been closed down years ago because they are not a good business prospect.


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    #1293
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jm08 wrote: »
    Think like this. If a business was running Connacht rugby, they would have been closed down years ago because they are not a good business prospect.

    They probably wouldn't have existed in the first place. But the provinces are not private clubs and try to combine the two concepts doesn't really work.


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    #1294
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    They probably wouldn't have existed in the first place. But the provinces are not private clubs and try to combine the two concepts doesn't really work.

    I wasn't trying to combine the two concepts. I was trying to explain the difference between a not-for-profit organisation like the IRFU who will put the sport first to a private business owner who probably wouldn't touch Connacht in the first place because he knows it would be a loss maker.


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    #1295
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jm08 wrote: »
    I wasn't trying to combine the two concepts. I was trying to explain the difference between a not-for-profit organisation like the IRFU who will put the sport first to a private business owner who probably wouldn't touch Connacht in the first place because he knows it would be a loss maker.

    Maybe I'm missing this, but I don't see how that difference is relevant to the European issue though? The fact Connacht are union-run doesn't really change anything, they're not being disadvantaged, in fact some of their fans believe they're now better off.


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    #1296
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,337 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    The point may be that club-run rugby isn't necessarily about what's best for the game. It's what's best for the clubs - usually success and money. If club owners see the need, money will trump what's good for the game.

    I'm not saying that's 100% locked in to happen, but it's what a lot of people fear when they see club owner millionaires taking control of how rugby is run (incrementally) - and not without reason (seeing what's happened in other sports).


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    #1297
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »
    The point may be that club-run rugby isn't necessarily about what's best for the game. It's what's best for the clubs - usually success and money. If club owners see the need, money will trump what's good for the game.

    I'm not saying that's 100% locked in to happen, but it's what a lot of people fear when they see club owner millionaires taking control of how rugby is run (incrementally) - and not without reason (seeing what's happened in other sports).

    Yes, but rugby isn't being run by the clubs. The debate has never been about allowing the clubs to run rugby, it's just been spun that way to suit certain agendas during the debate. The debate is about commercial control of the European competitions.

    The IRB run rugby, and the Unions run the IRB.

    The clubs now have a greater say in the commercial side of European club rugby. And there is a case to be made that this will give them more leverage over the Unions, but they certainly don't have any direct control over the sport. Even the sport in their own countries at the moment, let alone in Europe as a whole, is run by their unions.


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    #1298
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Yes, but rugby isn't being run by the clubs. The debate has never been about allowing the clubs to run rugby, it's just been spun that way to suit certain agendas during the debate. The debate is about commercial control of the European competitions.

    The IRB run rugby, and the Unions run the IRB.

    The clubs now have a greater say in the commercial side of European club rugby. And there is a case to be made that this will give them more leverage over the Unions, but they certainly don't have any direct control over the sport. Even the sport in their own countries at the moment, let alone in Europe as a whole, is run by their unions.

    Neither did the Premier League clubs , but look at it now .


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    #1299
    its_phil
    Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭its_phil


    marienbad wrote: »
    Neither did the Premier League clubs , but look at it now .

    Unlike internationals in football compared to the Premier League, internationals will always be king in rugby due to there only being a few top sides who play each other.


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    #1300
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    The Premier league isn't a great example of how clubs can ruin International sport, the rot had set in a long long time before it was set up.


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    #1301
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Yes, but rugby isn't being run by the clubs. The debate has never been about allowing the clubs to run rugby, it's just been spun that way to suit certain agendas during the debate. The debate is about commercial control of the European competitions.

    The IRB run rugby, and the Unions run the IRB.

    The clubs now have a greater say in the commercial side of European club rugby. And there is a case to be made that this will give them more leverage over the Unions, but they certainly don't have any direct control over the sport. Even the sport in their own countries at the moment, let alone in Europe as a whole, is run by their unions.

    Whoever controls the purse strings, controls the game. For instance, the ERC ended up in the courts because some of the clubs were unhappy about their players being disciplined and whether the ERC/IRB had a right to suspend players.


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    #1302
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    its_phil wrote: »
    Unlike internationals in football compared to the Premier League, internationals will always be king in rugby due to there only being a few top sides who play each other.

    There are only a few top sides in football as well. The rest are indebted, also rans dependent on the whims of some sugardaddy to keep their heads above water trying to pay hugely inflated wages to journeymen footballers.

    edit: I just checked. Paul McShane is on 50K a month!


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    #1303
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Sooooo its all sorted. Greed won in the end. The rich get richer. The poor fall by the wayside.

    I wonder what the owners of the Rugby Clubs in England will do now.
    I see. More money to grab. And on it goes
    http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/221787.html


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    #1304
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jm08 wrote: »
    Whoever controls the purse strings, controls the game. For instance, the ERC ended up in the courts because some of the clubs were unhappy about their players being disciplined and whether the ERC/IRB had a right to suspend players.

    The Unions control the purse strings though. Look at the amount of money PRL rely on the RFU for, as an example.


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    #1305
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    The Premier league isn't a great example of how clubs can ruin International sport, the rot had set in a long long time before it was set up.

    It's a complex argument. The problem with that is the appropriation of returns is all going to the players. That's ultimately what will happen with rugby too.


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    #1306
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The Unions control the purse strings though. Look at the amount of money PRL rely on the RFU for, as an example.

    That will be small change to these guys in a couple of years. They won't need it as they will have so much tv money. Next thing is that they will only be allowed play in competitions, so autumn internationals & summer tours will mean that key moneymakers (i.e., the new Brian O'Driscolls) will have to be rested.

    We have already seen that Hines had to walk out on USAP to get on a Lions tour.


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    #1307
    its_phil
    Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭its_phil


    jm08 wrote: »
    There are only a few top sides in football as well. The rest are indebted, also rans dependent on the whims of some sugardaddy to keep their heads above water trying to pay hugely inflated wages to journeymen footballers.

    edit: I just checked. Paul McShane is on 50K a month!

    Few top sides just in football? The AP, Rabo and Top 14 regular seasons feature 2 or 3 sides who are regularly in the top 4.


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    #1308
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    its_phil wrote: »
    Few top sides just in football? The AP, Rabo and Top 14 regular seasons feature 2 or 3 sides who are regularly in the top 4.

    I may have misinterpreted what you meant here.
    In response to this comment:
    Originally Posted by its_phil viewpost.gif
    Unlike internationals in football compared to the Premier League, internationals will always be king in rugby due to there only being a few top sides who play each other.

    My meaning is that it is the same teams in soccer who win the premiership every year. Liverpool is a big club but its about 25 years since they have won anything domestically. Arsensal is a to club and it has won relatively little. Man City wouldn't be competing except of their moneybags owners.


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    #1309
    stpaddy99
    Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭stpaddy99


    Rightwing wrote: »
    It's a complex argument. The problem with that is the appropriation of returns is all going to the players. That's ultimately what will happen with rugby too.
    I hope not. but football is 1000 times the size of rugby so its probably unlikely to get anywhere near as out of control. the international game is therefore likely to remain the pinnacle. but who can really predict with accuracy the long term future. another point to make is the so called poor old amateur clubs were frittering away tens of thousands on paying pub players for years and scrapping the youth sides too. I think its crucial we continue to strike a balance between unions and clubs/provinces , to see irfu funds pumped into the grass roots and academies. ultimately this will feed the whole game. of course the mega tv money will change everything but id like to see a fixed percentage of that money for years to come.


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    #1310
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    stpaddy99 wrote: »
    I hope not. but football is 1000 times the size of rugby so its probably unlikely to get anywhere near as out of control. the international game is therefore likely to remain the pinnacle. but who can really predict with accuracy the long term future. another point to make is the so called poor old amateur clubs were frittering away tens of thousands on paying pub players for years and scrapping the youth sides too. I think its crucial we continue to strike a balance between unions and clubs/provinces , to see irfu funds pumped into the grass roots and academies. ultimately this will feed the whole game. of course the mega tv money will change everything but id like to see a fixed percentage of that money for years to come.

    The pinnacle is the player's pockets, regardless of the sport.


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    #1311
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Where can we find out the definitive format of the new Champions Cup competition?

    I only ask because there have been conflicting reports in supposedly reputable media outlets.

    Will it be four groups of five teams or five groups of four?

    Where is the horse's mouth into which I can look to find this answer? The Irish Times is saying one thing; ESPN another.

    :confused:


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    #1312
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    Where can we find out the definitive format of the new Champions Cup competition?

    I only ask because there have been conflicting reports in supposedly reputable media outlets.

    Will it be four groups of five teams or five groups of four?

    Where is the horse's mouth into which I can look to find this answer? The Irish Times is saying one thing; ESPN another.

    :confused:

    http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/221419.html

    ----
    Have to say I do wonder how the TV subscriptions side of things will pan out as I can't see people shelling out for BT if they've Sky and vice versa.


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    #1313
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Snickers Man wrote: »

    Where is the horse's mouth into which I can look to find this answer? The Irish Times is saying one thing; ESPN another.

    :confused:

    Behold the horse's mouth....

    http://www.rfu.co.uk/news/2014/march/news-articles/260314_europe_statement

    The 4 of 5 was never a runner, due to the fact that it would have meant two extra game weeks for the pool stages.


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    #1314
    Winters
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    I suppose it's the victors who write the history books..

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/irb-chief-brett-gosper-believes-harmony-in-europe-will-aid-growth-of-game-1.1764158

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irfu-absolutely-happy-with-champions-cup-format-1.1764275

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/fans-had-to-take-the-hit-to-secure-european-competition-browne-30193903.html

    BBC: The men who "saved European Rugby" - sitting on the fence is heroic now?

    http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/27037515

    Larbre & marianbad you may feel nauseous after reading the last one.


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    #1315
    BBDBB
    Registered Users Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    I couldn't believe the gall of that BBC article when I read it


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    #1316
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    If you read it in a sarcastic voice in your head it's quite good actually.


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    #1317
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    The IRFU are absolutely happy? The world isn't going to end? They must have been bought off by the filthy club owners, it's the only reasonable explanation.


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    #1318
    Winters
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The IRFU are absolutely happy? The world isn't going to end? They must have been bought off by the filthy club owners, it's the only reasonable explanation.

    You know damn well the world will only end after Saracens win the Heineken Cup!


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    #1319
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Winters wrote: »
    You know damn well the world will only end after Saracens win the Heineken Cup!

    Well that's tonight's nightmare sorted.


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    #1320
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The IRFU are absolutely happy? The world isn't going to end? They must have been bought off by the filthy club owners, it's the only reasonable explanation.

    Resignation, I'd say. (And it was the Scots who were bought off).

    From the Breakdown email today:
    When the French Rugby Federation served notice to leave European Rugby Cup Ltd, the organisation that controls the Heineken Cup and that will cease to exist later this year, its motivation was different from that of the French and English clubs who also said they would be off.

    The clubs wanted a fundamental change in the way the tournament was run, frustrated that a club competition was being controlled by unions they felt were not, as a whole, incentivised enough to ensure it fulfilled its commercial potential. The FFR's aim was to break up what it considered to be an unhealthy concentration of rugby power in one city, Dublin. The International Rugby Board was based there, along with the Six Nations committee and ERC, operating very close to each other.

    The big winners in this are the French. Their next step is to get rid of the Six Nations.


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    #1321
    dtpc191991
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭dtpc191991


    Winters wrote: »
    I suppose it's the victors who write the history books..

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/irb-chief-brett-gosper-believes-harmony-in-europe-will-aid-growth-of-game-1.1764158

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irfu-absolutely-happy-with-champions-cup-format-1.1764275

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/fans-had-to-take-the-hit-to-secure-european-competition-browne-30193903.html

    BBC: The men who "saved European Rugby" - sitting on the fence is heroic now?

    http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/27037515

    Larbre & marianbad you may feel nauseous after reading the last one.

    I got about three lines into the last one before thinking of two words beginning with F and ending in Off!


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