The European club rugby debacle continues part IV: the quest for peace

Eod100

Presume this is a mistake? Should be Northampton instead of Saracens no?

https://twitter.com/EPCRugby/status/475628170553868288

Also https://twitter.com/EPCRugby/status/475632461586890752

former legend

Just got this via email from our new overlords -skip to 'basic principles' at the end


Saracens, RC Toulon and Leinster Rugby are guaranteed top seeding when the pool draw for the inaugural European Rugby Champions Cup takes place at the Stade de la Maladière in Neuchatel, Switzerland on Tuesday 10th June.

The event will get underway with the pool draw for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup at 12.00pm (UK and Irish time) which will be followed immediately by the draw for the European Rugby Champions Cup pools.

Both draws will be broadcast live on epcrugby.com and will also be covered on Sky Sports News, btsport.com, TG4 and Infosport + in France.

Follow the drama as it unfolds on Twitter @epcrugby using the #ERCCPoolDraw

Craig Doyle of BT Sport and Raphael Ibanez will be joint comperes in Neuchatel with former London Wasps and RC Toulon star, Simon Shaw, and Welsh legend, Scott Quinnell (Sky Sports analyst), on hand to conduct the draws.

Twenty clubs from the Aviva Premiership, the Top 14 and the Pro12 have booked their places in the 2014/15 European Rugby Champions Cup, and for the first time, the clubs have qualified on merit.

For the purposes of the pool draw, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked according to their finishing positions in the League table, so Saracens are top seeds with Northampton Saints ranked number two.

The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases of their championships. So reigning European and Top 14 champions, RC Toulon, and Pro12 champions, Leinster Rugby, are also confirmed among the top seeds.

The 20 clubs will be divided into four tiers of five based on their qualification positions from the Leagues. A draw will be conducted in advance to establish Tier 1 with two of the three second-ranked clubs – Northampton Saints, Castres Olympique and Glasgow Warriors – joining Saracens, Toulon and Leinster in the top tier.

Once Tier 1 has been established, the remaining three tiers will fall into place. Then the draw for the five pools will be made, and during the draw, some clubs may have to be placed directly into a pool in order to ensure that certain key principles apply (see below). In Tier 4, Sale Sharks and London Wasps will be drawn into pools which contain one other Aviva Premiership club, and Toulouse will be drawn into a pool which contains one other Top 14 club.

Stade Francais Paris, Exeter Chiefs and Cardiff Blues are confirmed among the top seeds for the 2014/15 European Rugby Challenge Cup which will be conducted on similar lines with four tiers and five pools. In Tier 4, Oyonnax, Lyon and La Rochelle-ASR will be drawn into pools which contain one other Top 14 club.

European Rugby Champions Cup qualification
For the purposes of creating the tiers, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked based on their League table finishing positions in advance of the knockout phase. The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases. For clubs which did not qualify for the knockout phases of their Leagues, or which were eliminated at the same stage of the knockout phase, rankings are decided by League table finishing positions.

Rank Premiership Top 14 Pro 12
1 Saracens RC Toulon Leinster Rugby
2 Northampton Saints Castres Olympique Glasgow Warriors
3 Leicester Tigers Montpellier Munster Rugby
4 Harlequins Racing Metro 92 Ulster Rugby
5 Bath Rugby ASM Clermont Auvergne Ospreys
6 Sale Sharks Toulouse Scarlets
7 London Wasps Benetton Treviso

European Rugby Challenge Cup qualification
For the purposes of creating the tiers, the clubs are ranked based on their finishing positions in the Top 14, Aviva Premiership, Pro12 and PRO D2 Leagues, or on their qualification via a play-off.

Rank Top 14 Premiership Pro 12 Qualifying
1 Stade Francais Exeter Chiefs Cardiff Blues FIRA-AER 1
2 Bordeaux-Bègles Gloucester Rugby Edinburgh Rugby FIRA-AER 2
3 Brive London Irish NG Dragons
4 Bayonne Newcastle Falcons Connacht Rugby
5 Grenoble London Welsh Zebre
6 Oyonnax
7 Lyon
8 La Rochelle-ASR

EPCR pool draws – key principles
The 20 clubs are divided into four tiers based on their qualification position from their Leagues. This will be done where necessary by a draw.
Each of the five pools will have at least one club from each of the three Leagues.
Each of the five pools will have one club from each of the four tiers.
There will be no more than two clubs from the same League in a pool.
No pool will contain two Pro12 clubs from the same country.
Clubs from the same League will be kept apart until the allocation of the Tier 4 clubs.

former legend

First confirmation we've seen that the Irish teams will be kept apart in the pool stages. Good stuff.

ArmaniJeanss

I think its a pity, a provincial 'HCup' pool match in Thomond or Ravenhill would be epic. Instead we go back to the old situation where it can only happen at the 1/4 final stage (semis and it would be moved to the Aviva).

Also slightly inconsistent - if the qualification format is moving to 3 equal leagues rather than 6 countries then the splitting should only be on the league basis imo.

P_1

Not sure why Sarries get a 1st seeding while Castres get a 2nd one if it's meant to be based on league position. Strikes me as being somewhat inconsistent.

former legend

P_1 wrote: »

Not sure why Sarries get a 1st seeding while Castres get a 2nd one if it's meant to be based on league position. Strikes me as being somewhat inconsistent.

Presumably the English teams themselves decided how it would be ranked, ie Sarries finished top of the regular season table.

thomond2006

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think its a pity, a provincial 'HCup' pool match in Thomond or Ravenhill would be epic. Instead we go back to the old situation where it can only happen at the 1/4 final stage (semis and it would be moved to the Aviva).

Also slightly inconsistent - if the qualification format is moving to 3 equal leagues rather than 6 countries then the splitting should only be on the league basis imo.

Provinces in the same pool would mean a minimum of four fixtures in a season with a possibility of further matches in the knockouts. That's too many.

ArmaniJeanss

thomond2006 wrote: »

Provinces in the same pool would mean a minimum of four fixtures in a season with a possibility of further matches in the knockouts. That's too many.

But Leinster v Scarlets or Munster v Glasgow can occur exactly that many times.

thomond2006

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

But Leinster v Scarlets or Munster v Glasgow can occur exactly that many times.

They aren't marquee matches though like the provincial derbies. I wouldn't like Munster vs Leinster four times in a season with the possibility of more (Think of the mods! )

Eod100

Anyone able to explain the tiers?

They make it seem like there'll only need to be a draw to decide the 2 semi-finalists who go in to Tier 1 but not sure how they decide on the 5th team in Tier 2.. Does there need to be a draw for that too?

1) Saracens, RC Toulon, Leinster Rugby, (2 from Northampton Saints ,Castres Olympique, Glasgow Warriors)

2) (Team not picked for Tier 1 of the 3), Leicester Tigers, Montpellier, Munster, ?

3) Harlequins, Racing Metro 92,Ulster Rugby, Bath Rugby, ASM Clermont Auvergne, Ospreys


4) Sale Sharks,Toulouse,Scarlets ,London Wasps, Benetton Treviso

rudiger2.0

The way I have it figured is they'll have to do a draw for the top seeds and then a draw, which will put someone from Ulster's tier into a second seeding place. The rest should all fall into place.

Riskymove

really is the potential for some epic groups of death

Munster or Ulster could get a group of Toulon, Quins and Toulouse

Riskymove

rudiger2.0 wrote: »

The way I have it figured is they'll have to do a draw for the top seeds and then a draw, which will put someone from Ulster's tier into a second seeding place. The rest should all fall into place.

given that Munster and Ulster can't be in the same group the easiest answer seems to be Ulster as the fifth second seed team

Eod100

Riskymove wrote: »

given that Munster and Ulster can't be in the same group the easiest answer seems to be Ulster as the fifth second seed team

Apparently it's that if Glasgow miss out on the 1st Tier (by luck of the draw) they'll go into the 2nd Tier along with Ulster. If Saints miss out it will be Quins and them in 2nd Tier. And if Castres miss out it will be Racing.

Maguined

former legend wrote: »

For the purposes of the pool draw, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked according to their finishing positions in the League table, so Saracens are top seeds with Northampton Saints ranked number two.

The Top 14 and Pro12 clubs are ranked based on their League performances and on their qualification for the knockout phases of their championships. So reigning European and Top 14 champions, RC Toulon, and Pro12 champions, Leinster Rugby, are also confirmed among the top seeds.

Why was the ranking made different between the Aviva and the other leagues?

Riskymove

Eod100 wrote: »

Apparently it's that if Glasgow miss out on the 1st Tier (by luck of the draw) they'll go into the 2nd Tier along with Ulster. If Saints miss out it will be Quins and them in 2nd Tier. And if Castres miss out it will be Racing.

ok so two of the same league

so hopefully Glasgow does not miss out!!

Winters

Maguined wrote: »

Why was the ranking made different between the Aviva and the other leagues?

It's what the fans owners want?..

Wouldnt the Pro12 rankings be the same whether they are based on the table or the playoffs?

Riskymove

Winters wrote: »

It's what the fans owners want?..

Wouldnt the Pro12 rankings be the same whether they are based on the table or the playoffs?

on this occassion yes

Neil3030

I kinda like that not all leagues go on final classification as it adds a random element to the tiering. This year Castres could be first seeds, while Toulouse will be drawn from pot 4.

I'm also trying to decide if the manner of separation of nations and leagues is a help or a hinderance to Irish provinces.

On the plus side, you will never have 2 Irish provinces in the same pool, which I think is a good thing.

But I think the structure will benefit English and French sides in the long run; considering that their leagues are stronger than the Rabo, they are guaranteed at least one Rabo side in their pool and are guaranteed to avoid sides from one of the stronger leagues until the 4th Tier.

Riskymove

Neil3030 wrote: »

But I think the structure will benefit English and French sides in the long run; considering that their leagues are stronger than the Rabo, they are guaranteed at least one Rabo side in their pool and are guaranteed to avoid sides from one of the stronger leagues until the 4th Tier.

but this was always the case

In the HEC each team had one and one English teams (bar one group) and the other two spots coming from the Rabo

with the reduction to 20 teams there are less "weak" teams and therefore the groups will be harder for all, including French and English

justsomebloke

Ok at this point anything at all that could have been said has been said. The draw has taken place for the new comp and the erc website is down, so it's time to say goodbye to this thread.

Please leave any disagreements you had with any other posters about this topic here and don't use it as a stick against anyone going forward.