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The European club rugby debacle continues part IV: the quest for peace

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    #1352
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    If they are getting proportionately more because we've made everything even, then it just goes to prove that things were not fair under the old system. No point pretending we were promised the extra money we were getting in the past. We were not guaranteed it by virtue of the fact we were already getting it. Yes they are getting more out of the new system, but that is because they were getting much less under the old system, so I don't really understand why that's surprising at all.
    molloyjh wrote: »
    ...if...you limit your view to the European competition alone then they are leveling the playing field. If you look at the bigger picture they are just ensuring the field is more tilted in their favour.

    Why do I keep getting sucked in!? :confused:


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    #1353
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    If they are getting proportionately more because we've made everything even, then it just goes to prove that things were not fair under the old system. No point pretending we were promised the extra money we were getting in the past. We were not guaranteed it by virtue of the fact we were already getting it. Yes they are getting more out of the new system, but that is because they were getting much less under the old system, so I don't really understand why that's surprising at all.


    For others reading this it may be worth pointing out that the ERC revenue was divided by union with extra payments to the English and French to reflect the greater number of participants they provide. It was recognised that this gave proportionally less money per union and proportionally more money per participant to the non-English and French clubs. It was decided and agreed with the future of European rugby in mind.

    The new competition ignores unions and spreads the money equally according to participation.

    That hasn't really clarified anything has it?

    If you think that the future of the sport is sorted and are not interested in the future spread of the game then this new arrangement is ideal. If, like me, you think that the sport could grow far bigger than it currently is then this agreement has us heading in the wrong direction.


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    #1354
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Why do I keep getting sucked in!? :confused:

    What on earth does the money people are getting from outside the competition have to do with equity within it? Should the Irish provinces be penalised because they are directly funded by international rugby? Of course not. The commercial weakness of the Rabo in comparison with the Premiership and Top 14 doesn't change the fact that the split was unfair.


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    #1355
    Winters
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    There was a system of equalisation applied to the revenues by the unions while they were still in charge. The same system is applied to the 6 Nations revenue. The reason was to keep the smaller unions' teams competitive. As the NFL mantra goes, competitors on the field, business partners off it..

    Now without that system, with private ownership and differing salary caps and foreign player rules the balance that previously existed has completely shifted in the favour of clubs from France and England.

    As I said, the end of rugby as we know it. Progress or disaster? That's a matter of opinion.

    I have to admit, if the French and English clubs were actually developing players and had a minimum of say 75% home union qualified it wouldn't worry me so much.


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    #1356
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Clearlier wrote: »
    If you think that the future of the sport is sorted and are not interested in the future spread of the game then this new arrangement is ideal. If, like me, you think that the sport could grow far bigger than it currently is then this agreement has us heading in the wrong direction.

    To me, that is the complete opposite of the truth.

    Basing it on the 6 insular unions was the wrong direction. Opening the competition up to be completely based on participation is clearly the path which facilitates the growth of the sport far more naturally.

    If you split the money between 6 Unions then how would a Georgian team ever be accomodated by that? The Scottish and Italian Unions among others see the growth of rugby in Easter Europe as a financial threat. There would be no pathway whatsoever for including a Union from Spain, Russia or Georgia in the split of European monies without the consent of the 6 unions, which would not ever be forthcoming. However splitting it based on participation means that a team from any of those countries can be included and there doesn't need to be any negotiation done at all, because the framework is there for exactly how much that participation is worth. It is no longer based on Unions agreeing between each other to let someone in from the outside, it is based on a fair expandable system.

    There is still no mechanism for the direct inclusion of outside clubs in the elite competition, which is a shame. Until they have a professional league there wouldn't be a way for them to qualify directly really. However there is a working party for moving the ECRP under the auspices of FIRA (never would have happened with ERC in a million years) and when that happens there can be real discussion about putting that mechanism in place. And there will be a real force behind ensuring that happens.

    The new system facilitates fair growth far more than the 6 Unions old boys club ever did. So I think you'll have to expand on that last point really, and show how on earth it's a step in the wrong direction for people who want to see European rugby grow, which is my own greatest ambition?


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    #1357
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Winters wrote: »
    There was a system of equalisation applied to the revenues by the unions while they were still in charge. The same system is applied to the 6 Nations revenue. The reason was to keep the smaller unions' teams competitive. As the NFL mantra goes, competitors on the field, business partners off it..

    Now without that system, with private ownership and differing salary caps and foreign player rules the balance that previously existed has completely shifted in the favour of clubs from France and England.

    As I said, the end of rugby as we know it. Progress or disaster? That's a matter of opinion.
    It was not a system of equalisation. It was a system of subsidisation.

    And it was put in place by a party controlled completely by the smaller unions who that subsidisation favoured. It was the turkeys running the committee for Christmas fundraising.


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    #1358
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What on earth does the money people are getting from outside the competition have to do with equity within it?

    Quite simply because the impacts of the financial divide have serious and far reaching implications on the sport in general.

    Put it this way, Toulon currently have an operating budget of €21.8 million. Next season the T14 rights are going to be worth a lot more than they currently are (I can't recall the figures off-hand). Then the clubs get €2 million each from the FFR. Then they get an increase in the money they get from Europe. That will easily give them an operating budget of at least €25 million next season, probably more.

    The same model used by Toulon, i.e. the sugar daddy on top of everything else, is becoming the norm over there. It's led to players from the other Pro12 countries moving over to France in fairly large numbers. The movement of the English towards something similar is sucking even more players out of the Celtalian countries now too. These budgets are impossible to compete with. And we can't hold out forever. Even if we could, and did, what would it matter. The Pro12 would be a shambles because the other sides in it would be playing teams that are all but development squads for the English and French clubs. Your outright refusal to see the reality that has already started to take shape is pretty staggering.


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    #1359
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    I'll admit to not reading up on the qualifications outside of the basics and this has probably been covered but does the playoff result in the Rabo affect the qualification or is it taken off the final league table?


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    #1360
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Quite simply because the impacts of the financial divide have serious and far reaching implications on the sport in general.

    Put it this way, Toulon currently have an operating budget of €21.8 million. Next season the T14 rights are going to be worth a lot more than they currently are (I can't recall the figures off-hand). Then the clubs get €2 million each from the FFR. Then they get an increase in the money they get from Europe. That will easily give them an operating budget of at least €25 million next season, probably more.

    The same model used by Toulon, i.e. the sugar daddy on top of everything else, is becoming the norm over there. It's led to players from the other Pro12 countries moving over to France in fairly large numbers. The movement of the English towards something similar is sucking even more players out of the Celtalian countries now too. These budgets are impossible to compete with. And we can't hold out forever. Even if we could, and did, what would it matter. The Pro12 would be a shambles because the other sides in it would be playing teams that are all but development squads for the English and French clubs. Your outright refusal to see the reality that has already started to take shape is pretty staggering.

    If the English and French clubs are doing well financially out of their own league they should be applauded for it. It certainly wasn't true of the English for a long time but I never heard anyone from here suggesting they should get more money out of Europe in those days, how bizarre...

    The answer is to fix the Pro 12's weaknesses. Not hide behind them. There is no reason the Pro 12 can't be financially competitive with those leagues and I anticipate the TV money available to Pro 12 teams will increase in the near future. The Welsh need to sort their own problems structurally, and as soon as they do everyone will reap the benefits.


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    #1361
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    I'll admit to not reading up on the qualifications outside of the basics and this has probably been covered but does the playoff result in the Rabo affect the qualification or is it taken off the final league table?

    I'm not sure tbh, although it won't actually affect who qualifies, just the winner of the league gets kept apart from the English and French champions.


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    #1362
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    If the English and French clubs are doing well financially out of their own league they should be applauded for it. It certainly wasn't true of the English for a long time but I never heard anyone from here suggesting they should get more money out of Europe in those days, how bizarre...

    The answer is to fix the Pro 12's weaknesses. Not hide behind them. There is no reason the Pro 12 can't be financially competitive with those leagues and I anticipate the TV money available to Pro 12 teams will increase in the near future. The Welsh need to sort their own problems structurally, and as soon as they do everyone will reap the benefits.

    That's just not going to happen for a number of reasons.

    1. The market for the game in the Pro12 countries just isn't as high as in France or England. Rugby is very much a minority sport in Scotland and Italy with the Welsh turning away from it in favour of soccer more and more. Add to that all the AW league carry on lately which announced to the world that the Welsh don't rate the league (an already well publicised issue).

    2. The market is not a single consolidated market. This further limits the level of investment sponsors are willing to make in it. 4 (or at least 3) fairly distinct and relatively small markets, one with a totally different language, doesn't compare to the markets in England or France.

    3. The absence of top level players in 3 of the countries due to the exodus to France and England further reduces both the market and the appeal to sponsors.

    I said a while back that I wouldn't have had a problem with a rebalancing of finances had the Pro12 countries been given more of an opportunity to develop their commercial product. But the signing of so many Pro12 players into France and England plus this move means that it can't and won't happen now.

    If you can make a rational and reasonable case as to how it could then by all means please do, but don't just fire back platitudes or empty sound bites.


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    #1363
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    The play-off for the 20th spot in next year's competition will be held over two legs on 17th and 24th May. Very likely to be Wasps vs Stade Francais


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    #1364
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    former legend wrote: »
    I'm not sure tbh, although it won't actually affect who qualifies, just the winner of the league gets kept apart from the English and French champions.

    I imagine it would be the final table although it wouldn't really matter which order the top 4 were looked at


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    #1365
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I imagine it would be the final table although it wouldn't really matter which order the top 4 were looked at

    Iirc is there not some situation where it could matter. Like if the top 4 were all Irish teams it would matter I think.


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    #1366
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Iirc is there not some situation where it could matter. Like if the top 4 were all Irish teams it would matter I think.

    No, if the top 4 were all Irish then all would qualify.


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    #1367
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Iirc is there not some situation where it could matter. Like if the top 4 were all Irish teams it would matter I think.

    no there are 7 spots and the system is such that all the top 4 would qualify regardless of order


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    #1368
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Riskymove wrote: »
    no there are 7 spots and the system is such that all the top 4 would qualify regardless of order

    There are 6 automatic spots and 2 playoff spots. One spot guarranteed for each nation. So one of them would be in that playoff spot


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    #1369
    legendary.xix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭legendary.xix


    The Pro 12 has 7 spots. 4 for top from each country and then the next best 3 based on Pro 12 table. The top 5 in that case are guaranteed to qualify.


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    #1370
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    legendary.xix wrote: »
    The Pro 12 has 7 spots. 4 for top from each country and then the next best 3 based on Pro 12 table. The top 5 in that case are guaranteed to qualify.

    Oh yes, it's 8th and 9th from the Pro 12 in the playoffs, not 7th and 8th, my maths is way off. That's grand so!


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    #1371
    Winters
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    There has been a good deal of airtime on the subject on Newstalk's OTB Rugby and Second Captains. Gerry Thorney mostly with Jackman and Keith Wood contributing too. Gerry paints a concerning picture and I can't say I disagree with him. Very worried for the future of the sport as a whole and in Ireland.


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    #1372
    RoyalCelt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,599 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Winters wrote: »
    There has been a good deal of airtime on the subject on Newstalk's OTB Rugby and Second Captains. Gerry Thorney mostly with Jackman and Keith Wood contributing too. Gerry paints a concerning picture and I can't say I disagree with him. Very worried for the future of the sport as a whole and in Ireland.

    Can i ask who would qualify on the current Rabo standings and are Connaught likely to qualify for next years Champions Cup?

    Also is it true less male adults play the sport now compared to 10 years ago. Heard Hook say this a few weeks ago on TV...


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    #1373
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,696 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    RoyalCelt wrote: »
    Can i ask who would qualify on the current Rabo standings and are Connaught likely to qualify for next years Champions Cup?

    Also is it true less male adults play the sport now compared to 10 years ago. Heard Hook say this a few weeks ago on TV...

    From the Rabo at the moment it'd be Leinster, Glasgow, Ospreys, Treviso, Munster, Ulster and Scarlets. Connacht won't this season.


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    #1374
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,886 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    RoyalCelt wrote: »
    Can i ask who would qualify on the current Rabo standings and are Connaught likely to qualify for next years Champions Cup?

    Also is it true less male adults play the sport now compared to 10 years ago. Heard Hook say this a few weeks ago on TV...

    If the Pro12 finished now, Leinster, Glasgow, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Scarlets and Treviso would go into the RCC, as Edinburgh would be displaced by the condition for a minimum one team from each country. Connacht would need to finish 6th, which is now impossible, as if they finished 7th they would become the team to be displaced by Treviso, so no they cannot qualify.

    I wouldnt pay much attention to anything George Hook says, if participation levels interest you I would suggest researching it.


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    #1375
    RoyalCelt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,599 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    If the Pro12 finished now, Leinster, Glasgow, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Scarlets and Treviso would go into the RCC, as Edinburgh would be displaced by the condition for a minimum one team from each country. Connacht would need to finish 6th, which is now impossible, as if they finished 7th they would become the team to be displaced by Treviso, so no they cannot qualify.

    I wouldnt pay much attention to anything George Hook says, if participation levels interest you I would suggest researching it.

    I know yeah it's just I was surprised considering Rugby has exploded in the last 10 years. Just would have thought the player increase would have come from men and not increased woman/kids playing it.


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    #1376
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Zebre now.


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    #1377
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,696 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Zebre now.

    Treviso with a game in hand tho. Very hard to call which one of them will go through.


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    #1378
    croket
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭croket


    Steviemak wrote: »

    As far as i see it Rugby is effectively dead in Europe outside of the 6 nations. Do the French and English clubs care about this?? Do the Unions IRB etc ? Who knows.

    Rugby is far to be dead outside 6 nations :

    An example :
    The romanian league is now full pro with full capped players from NZ, Fiji, Tonga, Namibia... and players from Currie Cup, ITM Cup, Pacific Islanders or Europe.

    Current champion Timisoara plays home games in a 33K seats stadium in a great atmosphere, coached by a south african and a kiwi.
    Please look this short video of their last home game : youtube.com/watch?v=mhx-yFB-bUw (I think you will be impressed by atmosphere, stadium and style of play)
    Timisoara just signed a partnership with Saracens RFC
    Another club, U Cluj plays home games in the Cluj Arena (30K seats, rated 5* by UEFA)
    Timisoara's budget is approx 2.5M€, Farul Constanta 3M€

    Take a look of results/squads from Romanian Super Liga on itsrugby



    Also in Russia, the current champion, Krasny Yar (coached by Josh Taumalolo) count 5 kiwis in the squad, 4 with a Super Rugby experience (5th played in ITM Cup), they also recently signed Vasily Artemyev from Northampton, Lituania's captain Karolis Navickas from Bordeaux (Top14) and Viktor Gresev from London Waps. approx 10 guys from the current Russian national team are playing for Krasny Yar, and 5 from Moldova national team.
    Krasny Yar's budget is about 4.5M€, Enisey-STM (who finished second last year) about 4M€
    VVA Monino signed a partnership with Saracens

    Romanian and Russian league are both full professional!


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    #1379
    its_phil
    Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭its_phil


    RoyalCelt wrote: »
    I know yeah it's just I was surprised considering Rugby has exploded in the last 10 years. Just would have thought the player increase would have come from men and not increased woman/kids playing it.

    It's a tough sport to start playing at a late age in adulthood. If people are getting into tag I do see that as a success, because they start learning the basic skills and want their children to start playing.

    The increase in kids is the most important one and hopefully the dividends will be there to see in a decade or more time


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    #1380
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    its_phil wrote: »
    It's a tough sport to start playing at a late age in adulthood. If people are getting into tag I do see that as a success, because they start learning the basic skills and want their children to start playing.

    The increase in kids is the most important one and hopefully the dividends will be there to see in a decade or more time

    It is academic to me at this stage as all my kids are long gone but do any parents of young kids have any concerns at how the game has developed .

    In the olden times a scrum was like a group hug whereas now it is like a collision of Pampas bulls.


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    #1381
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    marienbad wrote: »
    It is academic to me at this stage as all my kids are long gone but do any parents of young kids have any concerns at how the game has developed .

    In the olden times a scrum was like a group hug whereas now it is like a collision of Pampas bulls.
    New rules mean it's basically a hug again now. Much safer


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