Minister for Health Simon Harris and family trapped in home by protesters.

11-02-2019 11:01am

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I accept the recession happened

Once again who was in power when it happens and what caused it?

eh ? I make the exact same criticism of Fianna Fáil. Im Not interest in petty civil war catfighting.

What's really laughable to me (or rather, it would be if it weren't so serious), is that people are sh1tting themselves because of eleven protestors holding banners outside a Minister's home, acting like the sky is falling on Irish manners - and yet acting like I'm overreacting for calmly pointing out that Government policies have negatively impacted health outcomes and have even led to premature or unnecessary deaths.

I know what I'd prioritise as a cause for serious concern.

gmisk · 11-02-2019 11:02am

gandalf wrote: »

Let be honest here if the unions caught a wiff of a minister getting power to fire incompetents in their ranks they would be up in arms. Unfortunately all of our politicians are petrified of this.

TBH I think he should stand down he has lost all credibility but that doesn't mitigate that targeting his family home and his personal life is just wrong.

BTW him standing down will not cure the core problem of the cost overruns in the NCH, showing the nameless civil servants running the project in the background the rope and then using it if they don't manage the project properly will. Until we fire people for incompetence with no pension payoffs or allowing them "retire" we won't sort these problems out.

There is a reason why the minister for health job is referred to as a "poison chalice".
It is a basket case, who the hell would want it!
It contributed to the downfall of a lot of ministers.
e.g Mary Harney, James Reilly.

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 11:06am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

eh ? I make the exact same criticism of Fianna Fáil. Im Not interest in petty civil war catfighting.

What's really laughable to me (or rather, it would be if it weren't so serious), is that people are sh1tting themselves because of eleven protestors holding banners outside a Minister's home, acting like the sky is falling on Irish manners - and yet acting like you're overreacting for pointing out that Government policies have negatively impacted health outcomes and have even led to premature or unnecessary deaths.

I know what I'd prioritise as a cause for serious concern.

Well, until a party gets elected promising to half social welfare and double income taxes, every government will have policies that will negatively impact health outcomes.

For example, cervical cancer screening is not meant to be 100% effective, if you want it to be, it will cost ten times as much. Ditto every other scandal. Nothing that more money won't solve but that can only come from more income taxes and less social welfare.

Health policy is about risk/reward. It is not possible to make every treatment available, nor is it possible to continuously screen everyone for every condition. Faux outrage is possible at every turn, as our protest parties have become professional at, but it doesn't solve any problems.

Ush1 · 11-02-2019 11:07am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

eh ? I make the exact same criticism of Fianna Fáil. Im Not interest in petty civil war catfighting.

What's really laughable to me (or rather, it would be if it weren't so serious), is that people are sh1tting themselves because of eleven protestors holding banners outside a Minister's home, acting like the sky is falling on Irish manners - and yet acting like I'm overreacting for calmly pointing out that Government policies have negatively impacted health outcomes and have even led to premature or unnecessary deaths.

I know what I'd prioritise as a cause for serious concern.

So you're just throwing stones from the ditch? If you think you have the answers, why not run for government?

Wheeliebin30 · 11-02-2019 11:07am

GAA Beo wrote: »

The Dail records are available, get up to speed. Fine Gael were shouting from the rooftops during the Celtic Tiger spend spend more! Trying to rewrite history stating otherwise, they were the 2nd biggest party and had plenty of input into what happened. Only the biggest FG cheerleader would suggest otherwise, I'm well aware you are one of them.

Actually Bruton is on record on the dail of putting together an alternative budget in 2002 to try stop the ludicrous spending my FF and warning of a crash.

Anyway we will cave into the public sector again and be up **** creek in 5 years.

We never learn and people forget things very quickly.

Boggles · 11-02-2019 11:09am

gandalf wrote: »

Let be honest here if the unions caught a wiff of a minister getting power to fire incompetents in their ranks they would be up in arms. Unfortunately all of our politicians are petrified of this.

I doubt anyone would care if a bunch of well paid under performing senior managers started screaming wambulance.

Anyway it's Simon who has been telling anyone that will listen the past 18 months that's it's one of his key tools to sort out the HSE.

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 11:10am

GAA Beo wrote: »

The Dail records are available, get up to speed. Fine Gael were shouting from the rooftops during the Celtic Tiger spend spend more! Trying to rewrite history stating otherwise, they were the 2nd biggest party and had plenty of input into what happened. Only the biggest FG cheerleader would suggest otherwise, I'm well aware you are one of them.

Yes, the Dail records are available.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2007-12-05/30/

Here is Richard Bruton on Cowen's spending plans:

"He cannot see that the reason our public finances are in the diabolical state they are in is the sloppy, self-indulgent and wasteful way this Government has spent money."

"As a result of his behaviour, we have seen that the gains of the Celtic tiger have been frittered away. The tax bonanza has been spent but we do not have a world-class infrastructure, a world-class health service or efficiency in the public sector. The money has been spent but we have not delivered the change for which the country was crying out. We trail every league in service delivery. Whether in infrastructure, health or waiting times, we are at the bottom of the league."

You are making a fool of yourself now.

GAA Beo · 11-02-2019 11:10am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

eh ? I make the exact same criticism of Fianna Fáil. Im Not interest in petty civil war catfighting.

What's really laughable to me (or rather, it would be if it weren't so serious), is that people are sh1tting themselves because of eleven protestors holding banners outside a Minister's home, acting like the sky is falling on Irish manners - and yet acting like I'm overreacting for calmly pointing out that Government policies have negatively impacted health outcomes and have even led to premature or unnecessary deaths.

I know what I'd prioritise as a cause for serious concern.

How dare you bring common sense into this. The faux outrage from the Fine Gael puppets is nauseating. I'm sure they're having a wee giggle behind close doors at this.

Boggles · 11-02-2019 11:15am

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, the Dail records are available.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2007-12-05/30/

Here is Richard Bruton on Cowen's spending plans:

"He cannot see that the reason our public finances are in the diabolical state they are in is the sloppy, self-indulgent and wasteful way this Government has spent money."

"As a result of his behaviour, we have seen that the gains of the Celtic tiger have been frittered away. The tax bonanza has been spent but we do not have a world-class infrastructure, a world-class health service or efficiency in the public sector. The money has been spent but we have not delivered the change for which the country was crying out. We trail every league in service delivery. Whether in infrastructure, health or waiting times, we are at the bottom of the league."

You are making a fool of yourself now.

Talk is cheap.

Fire up FG's alternative budget submissions for those years.

If implemented we would still be in recession.

Ush1 · 11-02-2019 11:15am

GAA Beo wrote: »

Ah yes, any criticism of the precious Fine Gael, "why don't you run then smart arse". As if one Independent would have the say of the largest party in the state.

That's how democracy works. If you think you have enough support, why don't you start a new party?

Better to just whinge about people who are actually trying to change things.

sbsquarepants · 11-02-2019 11:23am

I'm not an FG supporter by any stretch, and even less so a Simon Harris fan, but this shower of twats outside his house, harassing his wife and baby is completely unacceptable.
If it was outside my house, I'd be outside cracking skulls with a baseball bat fairly pronto. Shower of arseholes!

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 11:25am

Boggles wrote: »

Talk is cheap.

Fire up FG's alternative budget submissions for those years.

If implemented we would still be in recession.

I presented the evidence that showed that FG and Labour criticised the FF budgets despite your friend GAA Beo claiming the opposite and I have showed that he doesn't have a clue about what he is talking about. If you think I am wrong, dig out the evidence and show me.

GAA Beo · 11-02-2019 11:27am

Boggles wrote: »

Talk is cheap.

Fire up FG's alternative budget submissions for those years.

If implemented we would still be in recession.

Exactly, the FG spinsters just rewriting history. It's actually something they are very good at.

Ush1 · 11-02-2019 11:28am

GAA Beo wrote: »

Fine Gael are trying to change things are they? Catch a grip :rolleyes:

I see you've defaulted back to option 2.

By the way, I don't agree with a lot of policies that Fine Gael have introduced but as the old saying goes, people get the government they deserve.

Boggles · 11-02-2019 11:29am

blanch152 wrote: »

despite your friend GAA Beo

Never met him, haven't clue who he/she is.

WTF are you talking about?

Listen you can paint history in whatever colour you chose, I have zero interest in getting involved in your delusion.

gandalf · 11-02-2019 11:39am

Ush1 wrote: »

That's how democracy works. If you think you have enough support, why don't you start a new party?

Better to just whinge about people who are actually trying to change things.

The problem is FG changed things superficially, after they got into power they had a massive opportunity to restructure and modify the whole PS using the recession and mistakes of the past as collateral. Instead they continued on with business as usual making a few minor changes.

Today the Health Service is in just as big a mess as it has every been, we have a new property boom (which I am aghast at given the devastation the last property crash caused), rents are worst than ever and there is no public accountability or responsibility in the PS.

They had the opportunity to sort things out but they took the path of least resistance and tbh looking at all of the political parties we have I suspect they would have all gone along the same path in general.

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 11:40am

Boggles wrote: »

Never met him, haven't clue who he/she is.

WTF are you talking about?

Listen you can paint history in whatever colour you chose, I have zero interest in getting involved in your delusion.

Boggles wrote: »

Talk is cheap.

Fire up FG's alternative budget submissions for those years.

If implemented we would still be in recession.

Wait a minute, I presented the Dail speeches that clearly show that FG opposed the FF budgets and that you and Gaa Beo are talking rubbish.

You suggest that FG's alternative budget submissions for those years show something different. Maybe you are aware of those, as I can't find them on google, maybe they don't exist, and you made it up.

meeeeh · 11-02-2019 11:43am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

eh ? I make the exact same criticism of Fianna Fáil. Im Not interest in petty civil war catfighting.

What's really laughable to me (or rather, it would be if it weren't so serious), is that people are sh1tting themselves because of eleven protestors holding banners outside a Minister's home, acting like the sky is falling on Irish manners - and yet acting like I'm overreacting for calmly pointing out that Government policies have negatively impacted health outcomes and have even led to premature or unnecessary deaths.

I know what I'd prioritise as a cause for serious concern.

Morons outside the door should be easily solved. Solving problems in health or the recession would be always hard. Austerity was no fun but I can't think what other options were there. Greece tried to do it differently and frankly I'm glad we are not Greece. What alternative policies do you think would be less painful for Ireland?

Auguste Comte · 11-02-2019 11:46am

Whatever about how corrupt/incompetent he and his party might be, and I tend to think its more the latter, a bunch of self appointed mouth pieces turning up outside the home of his partner and child is just pure scumbagery.

Nobody deserves protests outside their family home because someone disagrees with the way they do their job. It's a FAMILY home FFS.

Boggles · 11-02-2019 11:47am

blanch152 wrote: »

Maybe you are aware of those, as I can't find them on google, maybe they don't exist, and you made it up.

Sorry are you suggesting that FG did not prepare and publish alternative budget submissions, that would be a whole new level of lazy ineptness, wouldn't it?

Also I can't find something on Google = something didn't happen.

There is only one thing worse than arguing with a politician, it's arguing with that politicians minion.

Pointless.

Anyway, this thread is about the traumatized 3 week old baby.

Carry on.

Ush1 · 11-02-2019 11:50am

gandalf wrote: »

The problem is FG changed things superficially, after they got into power they had a massive opportunity to restructure and modify the whole PS using the recession and mistakes of the past as collateral. Instead they continued on with business as usual making a few minor changes.

Today the Health Service is in just as big a mess as it has every been, we have a new property boom (which I am aghast at given the devastation the last property crash caused), rents are worst than ever and there is no public accountability or responsibility in the PS.

They had the opportunity to sort things out but they took the path of least resistance and tbh looking at all of the political parties we have I suspect they would have all gone along the same path in general.

Agreed, but the reality is that most politicians in this country have limited power and even more limited tenure. High ranking public servants and HSE executives are the ones who are ALWAYS in the background.

You can have all the political will in the world but if you're up against a brick wall in terms of the administrative side I do have some sympathies for politicians in this country. Even with shortage of housing we still have huge amounts of NIMBYism which again, halts progress on many projects.

11-02-2019 11:51am

Boggles wrote: »

........

Pointless.

Anyway, this thread is about the traumatized 3 week old baby.

Carry on.

Couple of questions-

Are you male or female?
Do you have children?

Fiftyfilthy · 11-02-2019 11:55am

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Couple of questions-

Are you male or female?
Do you have children?

I have a child and if at 3 weeks old people were silently protesting outside, they would be completely oblivious. Fact

blanch152 · 11-02-2019 11:57am

Boggles wrote: »

Sorry are you suggesting that FG did not prepare and publish alternative budget submissions, that would be a whole new level of lazy ineptness, wouldn't it?

Also I can't find something on Google = something didn't happen.

There is only one thing worse than arguing with a politician, it's arguing with that politicians minion.

Pointless.

Anyway, this thread is about the traumatized 3 week old baby.

Carry on.

Alternative budget publications are a recent phenonemon. You are the one suggesting they existed fifteen years ago. If they did, produce them.

Calling names doesn't add to debate.

Boggles · 11-02-2019 11:57am

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Couple of questions-

Are you male or female?
Do you have children?

Am I being groomed?

:eek:

11-02-2019 11:59am

Boggles wrote: »

Am I being groomed?

:eek:

They’re pretty straightforward questions???

Floppybits · 11-02-2019 12:00pm

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

I have a child and if at 3 weeks old people were silently protesting outside, they would be completely oblivious. Fact

All these protesters have done is give FG spin doctors that chance to take some of the pressure of Harris and make him out to be a victim.

Sure you wouldn't put it past FG to stage this stunt themselves with their own supporters and blame republicans just to take the spot light away from their own incompetence.

Protesting outside a politicians house is wrong and so is using a 3 week old baby to take the heat off you.

11-02-2019 12:00pm

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

I have a child and if at 3 weeks old people were silently protesting outside, they would be completely oblivious. Fact

But would you be oblivious to people protesting outside?

11-02-2019 12:01pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, until a party gets elected promising to half social welfare and double income taxes, every government will have policies that will negatively impact health outcomes.

For example, cervical cancer screening is not meant to be 100% effective, if you want it to be, it will cost ten times as much. Ditto every other scandal. Nothing that more money won't solve but that can only come from more income taxes and less social welfare.

Health policy is about risk/reward. It is not possible to make every treatment available, nor is it possible to continuously screen everyone for every condition. Faux outrage is possible at every turn, as our protest parties have become professional at, but it doesn't solve any problems.

I'm not referring to the cervical smear issue, I'm talking about spending priorities within the Department of Health and the HSE - things like recruiting admin staff at a faster rate than front line staff, or the runaway budget for the National Children's Hospital. Given limited resources, such funding reduces patient interaction with professionals, either through lower staff numbers, or weaker availability of physical resources like medicines.

Nobody seriously thinks every life can be saved or prolonged. But politics is an economic game of allocating priorities, and many important hralthcare priorities will now be absorbed into a hole in the ground in Dublin 8, due to weak leadership and ineptitude. This was admitted by Simon Harris in a letter to the Minister For Public Expenditure last year, the contents of which is published in today's Irish Times. He said, the overspend "leaves little or no scope to undertake essential investment in diagnostic and medical, to commence the planning and design of future projects including bed capacity".

This idiocy is going to cost some people their health and shorten their lives. It was avoidable. I have nothing against Simon Harris personally, but I think he's an inept Minister who cannot be trusted with the Health budget.

gmisk · 11-02-2019 12:02pm

Floppybits wrote: »

All these protesters have done is give FG spin doctors that chance to take some of the pressure of Harris and make him out to be a victim.

Sure you wouldn't put it past FG to stage this stunt themselves with their own supporters and blame republicans just to take the spot light away from their own incompetence.

Protesting outside a politicians house is wrong and so is using a 3 week old baby to take the heat off you.

https://www.facebook.com/FINGALBATTALION
Come on now..... :rolleyes:

I don't even think you honestly believe that.
If you do you might consider joining the irish wing of info wars.

Minister for Health Simon Harris and family trapped in home by protesters.

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