New SI released, changes to licencing upcoming.

pm. · 19-09-2015 11:07am

No mention of semi auto shotguns that I can see are they back in the clear?

Sparks · 19-09-2015 11:13am

pm. wrote: »

No mention of semi auto shotguns that I can see are they back in the clear?

Yes.

Limerick Sovereigns · 19-09-2015 11:27am

I've been holding off on buying a .22 pistol until some clarity emerged. I'm sure that there are others like me.

Will our new applications be portrayed as a "surge" in pistol ownership and used as grounds to trigger this proviso in the announcement?

"The Minister intends to monitor the number of 0.22 inch rim fire calibre
handguns being licensed. In line with her commitment to prevent any
proliferation of handgun availability in Ireland, the Minister today
announced that if there is a significant increase in the number of
applications for new certificates or import licence applications for these
handguns then she will introduce priority legislation for a future cap."

Sparks · 19-09-2015 11:32am

Will our new applications be portrayed as a "surge" in pistol ownership and used as grounds to trigger this proviso in the announcement?

Nobody knows, but that's the reason why we want the FCP restarted. Minister comes to table, asks "Is this 23 new licences a spike?" and someone who actually knows the facts says "er, no. There were less than a thousand licences. If we see 500 more in the first year, you could call it a spike, but you'd want to watch it for longer than the first six months to make sure you're not catching genuine shooters who were waiting on clarification in the licencing".

As opposed to now, when she effectively would ask Garda Ballistics.

Witcher · 19-09-2015 11:46am

Irish Examiner;

Fitzgerald also said she would monitor the number of
0.22 inch rim-fire calibre handguns....
This model of handgun is relatively low-powered and
intended mainly for pest control...

Someone must have been on Wikipedia.

Melodeon · 19-09-2015 11:48am

Strider wrote: »

Irish Examiner;

Someone must have been on Wikipedia.

Grand picture of an AK there too:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/new-rules-to-restrict-firearm-ownership-354740.html

Edited to add:
Here it is in case they take it down, notice the filename :rolleyes:

Sparks · 19-09-2015 12:04pm

/sigh

Sparks · 19-09-2015 12:06pm

*ha* And the comments are disabled right off the bat too

Grizzly 45 · 19-09-2015 12:27pm

From their Face book page

The NASRPC acknowledge that the Minister for Justice, Frances Fitzgerald TD, was the first Minister for Justice to engage with the shooting community, visit a range and initiate a Joint Justice Committee review. This fair and reasonable approach was welcomed and was in stark contrast to the approach adopted by others in the past.
That said, while the NASRPC appreciate the value of the one point clarified by today’s SI and the positive intent behind the Ministers roadmap for change we are disappointed that the opportunity was not taken to increase 0.22lr short firearm magazine capacities to six rounds, as requested, and that the opportunity was not taken to remove the many other reasons used to prevent the issue of new licenses or the renewal of existing licenses to legitimate shooting sports participants.
Furthermore, the Ministers roadmap has to survive a general election and potentially a new Minister.

Witcher · 19-09-2015 12:58pm

Such a pity about the cap on the CF S/A's, M1 Carbine gallery rifle was only starting to take off.

Sparks · 19-09-2015 1:10pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

From their Face book page

Oh for ****s sakes.

The phrase "shut up and get to work to improve things and safeguard things instead of slagging off the first breath of a chance to improve things that we've gotten in the last decade" comes to mind.

Grizzly 45 · 19-09-2015 1:26pm

Strider wrote: »

Such a pity about the cap on the CF S/A's, M1 Carbine gallery rifle was only starting to take off.

This part isnt over by a long shot[excuse the pun] or this possible temp cap on .22 pistols.Reason...There are now a good few gun dealers sitting on stocks of SA CF rifles either in their shops or in whole saler depots on the Continent.Specifically ww2 vintage clasics like the M1 garand and M1 carbine.They are not as cheap as chips on the Continent as they used to be,it is a significant tie up of some dealers finances storing them in whole salers.So what are they going to do with them?Sell them at a loss back in the Continent?You cant sell them to the Uk or NI due to the SA ban.The US wont allow import of them.You can thank O'Bama for that,with him refusing to allow surplus Koren war vintage Garands to be re imported to the US from Korea.Others are sitting here in dealerships in the same prediciment because of people not wanting to fight the court cases and selling them to dealers in trade ins.
There was recomendations in the interim report that CF SA of 1950s vintage should be excluded for this very reason,and this could still be on the cards,IF we get the FCP up and running and/or the dealers make enough noise about this too.

Grizzly 45 · 19-09-2015 1:43pm

Sparks wrote: »

Oh for ****s sakes.

The phrase "shut up and get to work to improve things and safeguard things instead of slagging off the first breath of a chance to improve things that we've gotten in the last decade" comes to mind.

Unfortuneatly,I have to agree with you on this one..5 shot mags or 6 shot cylinders...FS try NO handguns at all!We could have lost a heck of alot more yesterday and have been kerb stomped with legislation that woud have affected us ALL very badly.

However ,this isnt over at all.It will Behoove us ALL to play this carefully with the .22 applications.And TBH this is one thing our organisations had better get in gear in and ask the PTB for some figures as to what thy would consider a "alarming spike" in applications.It just might come to the point that we will have to self police this and simply say that each club can only accept a quota of new handgun only applications a year per club.We are still in a lifeboat people and we might have to ration our water[applications] for the benefit of the sport surviving overall.Lets for once LEARN from our mistakes with the CF handguns.There was a mass application that scared the bejasus out of the PTB and well the rest is history...

Deaf git · 19-09-2015 6:38pm

Check out the very last sentence of the press release. It refers to the effect of court cases on the new arrangements. Yesterdays announcement could be taken as the Minister offering a conditional ceasefire, are court cases taken by individuals going to be considered a hostile act by the shooting community generally?

Traumadoc · 20-09-2015 11:50am

Actually I would fear a centralized firearms appeal process unless it could be challenged legally.

The courts have generally been favorable to our appeals , I would fear the makeup of such a body could be managed in such a way that all appeals could be refused.

It will be interesting to see the makeup of such a body.

Sparks · 20-09-2015 11:53am

That's a risk (like we've said before) but the courts option is still available (and can't be taken away, that's far more fundamental than the Firearms Act).

Cass · 20-09-2015 11:53am

Is it not meant to be pre-DC arbitration? IOW go through this process before going to court, and if that fails court is still a legal option? Of course you can still skip this stage and go straight to court.

Grizzly 45 · 20-09-2015 3:29pm

“The Minister for Justice & Equality, France Fitzgerald TD, published last Friday, September the 18th, a new S.I. governing the licensing of target handguns together with announcing planned new arrangements for the administration of the firearms licensing system, and we now publish those arrangements on the Sports Coalition Website. These announcements come in response to the report and recommendations of the joint review carried out by the Department of Justice and An Garda Siochana this time last year and the response and campaign to that report by the Sports Coalition. Of significance is the fact that all of the arrangements which the Minister has announced were sought by the Sports Coalition. Suffice to say that all firearms currently licensed are safe and there are no proposals to ban anything. Of particular significance for game shooting people is the fact that the proposal to ban certain semi-automatic shotguns is dropped as are the proposals to give An Garda Siochana new powers to refuse firearms licence applications for any firearm.

I wish to express my sincere gratitude to my colleagues in the Sports Coalition for their support and work over the past year. I also wish to thank the many thousands of individual shooting people who contributed actively to our campaign by lobbying their local public representatives. My appreciation also goes to those members of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice & Equality and particularly its Chairman, David Stanton T.D., for their measured consideration and contributions to resolving what had become a difficult and complicated issue. I also wish to acknowledge the positive and pragmatic approach adopted by Minister Fitzgerald in arriving at her decision. Her planned proposals will in time make a very positive contribution to removing the acromonious and adverserial approach which has categorised firearms licensing in this Country over the past ten years while at the same time taking full account of public safety concerns. It therefore goes without saying that the Sports Coalition welcomes and fully endorses the Ministers announcement. Lastly, I wish to pay tribute to William Egan, Solicitor, who has been a fearless defender of shooting sports for the past twenty years His achievements are unrivalled anywhere in this area. He has provided free legal advice to the Sports Coalition since it was formed which has proved invaluable in our campaign. There are other individuals who are deserving of our gratitude and suffice to say I will be communicating that to those people personally.

Desmond Crofton
National Director – NARGC
&
Spokesperson for the Sports Coalition

turismo2142 · 20-09-2015 11:03pm

Sparks wrote: »

That's a risk (like we've said before) but the courts option is still available (and can't be taken away, that's far more fundamental than the Firearms Act).

Just to clarify; The district court appeal option could theoretically/conceivably be taken away although I doubt that'll ever happen but judicial review (in the high court) will always remain.

Grizzly 45 · 20-09-2015 11:53pm

Would mean having to revamp,yet again the 08/09 act to remove the DC appeal?

Sparks · 21-09-2015 12:11am

Yup, but it could be done if the motivation was there. The JR avenue can't ever be removed though.

Sparks · 21-09-2015 10:57am

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/09/21/their-aim-is-true/

BoatMad · 21-09-2015 4:26pm

sounds good to me, the FCP can only be a good thing if managed properly, we need to remove confrontation with the AGS . no good ever came from it

Traumadoc · 21-09-2015 4:44pm

BoatMad wrote: »

sounds good to me, the FCP can only be a good thing if managed properly, we need to remove confrontation with the AGS . no good ever came from it

I would disagree, if it were not for challenging the Guards, we would not have any pistols, or anything bigger than .22

BoatMad · 21-09-2015 4:48pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

I would disagree, if it were not for challenging the Guards, we would not have any pistols, or anything bigger than .22

sorry , I beg to disagree, the primary change was as a result of a legal challenge against the state. The subsequent challenges against the AGS have proven counter productive

Sparks · 21-09-2015 4:49pm

And to remind you both, we were offered pistols back in the late 90s and turned them down. The legal stuff could have been avoided from a long way back.

gunhappy_ie · 21-09-2015 4:55pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

I would disagree, if it were not for challenging the Guards, we would not have any pistols, or anything bigger than .22

Im not going to speak for Boat Mad but I will say for myself I wouldn't have thought that was the point.

I have to say that some members of representative associations weren't completely respectful in dealing politicians on this. Fair enough they were dealing with AGS who IMO are completely untrustworthy/incompetent but their frustration about the matter but it did not paint a nice picture for the shooting community.

Challenging AGS in the courts is a completely different matter !

Traumadoc · 21-09-2015 4:59pm

BoatMad wrote: »

sorry , I beg to disagree, the primary change was as a result of a legal challenge against the state. The subsequent challenges against the AGS have proven counter productive

No, the primary change was the temporary custody and retention of firearms in 1972.
The guards would have been more than happy to keep it that way and have been trying to get it back that way ever since.
Witness the falsehoods put out in the media about toys being stolen firearms, if it were not for a few brave and committed individuals who were prepared to challenge the Guards , we would have lost all pistols and all semi-auto shotguns.

BoatMad · 21-09-2015 5:01pm

I have to say that some members of representative associations weren't completely respectful in dealing politicians on this. Fair enough they were dealing with AGS who IMO are completely untrustworthy/incompetent but their frustration about the matter but it did not paint a nice picture for the shooting community.

I have no wish to derail this thread, but this type of generalisation "AGS who IMO are completely untrustworthy/incompetent" is at the kernel of the matter. Im sure , like all societies , there are bad apples in the AGS, but to paint the police force of the state as "completely untrustworthy/incompetent" is no way to advance licensing issues.

sitting round the table , debating and arguing is far superior that trying to sue various parts of the Guards in the courts ,m we have to get away from loudspeaker politics in this regard.

( and I know you were actually agreeing with me in a way )

BoatMad · 21-09-2015 5:02pm

No, the primary change was the temporary custody and retention of firearms in 1972.

err that was a challenge against the state not the AGS, that what I said

BoatMad · 21-09-2015 5:08pm

The guards would have been more than happy to keep it that way and have been trying to get it back that way ever since.

actually its been the shouting and roaring of the various sporting bodies that have equally done us harm. I dont not expect the Gardai to be agnostic on firearms, no more then they are on road safety. Hence they will from time to time promote certain ideas, ideas we may not like.

What we have now is at least a clear consultative route to " challange" any such initiatives in the future. we can be sure the AGS will continuously keep the pressure on, Ive no issue with them in that , what we must do is be organised to present our case, not start screaming amongst ourselves or labelling all guards as " incompetent " etc

Traumadoc · 21-09-2015 5:21pm

BoatMad wrote: »

err that was a challenge against the state not the AGS, that what I said

I thought it was the Guards who refused to re-license the firearms hence they continued to remain in garda custody.

Was it senior gardai that altered application documents after the fact that the pistol licenses had been refused and were subject to court challenge?

What ever happened to that?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/calls-for-probe-after-top-garda-altered-gun-licence-forms-26814213.html

Sparks · 21-09-2015 5:27pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

I thought it was the Guards who refused to re-license the firearms hence they continued to remain in garda custody.

Two separate policies, challenged in two separate Supreme Court cases. Both ruled to have been illegal.

Sparks · 21-09-2015 5:28pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

What ever happened to that?

We* settled the case and part of the settlement was an agreement that no wrongdoing had taken place.

*"we" meaning those taking the cases on everyone's behalf, even those who though it was a terrible idea from soup to nuts.

bravestar · 21-09-2015 6:13pm

Reading some of the posts here, you would swear we just got fed another sh!t sandwich. We should be happy how things are going and discussing how best to keep the good vibes alive, rather than bickering over history.

Sincerely yours,

Someone who is completely untrustworthy and/ or incompetent.

Grizzly 45 · 21-09-2015 7:02pm

I think we are now going into the "trust, but verify" stage of things.But as said this all has to survive a Gen election and if Frannie is voted back in by some chanceðŸ˜„.Whats the chances she will be still in the same job,Our dear leader has said he is retiring and Frannie has an eye on the ultra most high poobah job in FG.
Will this become another DoJ door stopper or wonky desk leg support like the TCO for another few decades?Or can it be hustled with us asking via the FCP?Or will this be another Xmas rush it thru bill before the holidays this Xmas?
We are still in intresting times .

Deaf git · 21-09-2015 7:07pm

Someone who is completely untrustworthy and/ or incompetent.

[/quote]

In any group of 13000 ish people there will be a percentage who fall into this category. There will be further percentages of bone lazy, nuts, bullies and general headcases as there are throughout other branches of the public service and society in general. These categories colour public perception of the rest that just get on with their job.
So don't take it personally.

Grizzly 45 · 21-09-2015 7:25pm

Deaf git wrote: »

Someone who is completely untrustworthy and/ or incompetent.

In any group of 13000 ish people there will be a percentage who fall into this category. There will be further percentages of bone lazy, nuts, bullies and general headcases as there are throughout other branches of the public service and society in general. These categories colour public perception of the rest that just get on with their job.
So don't take it personally.[/quote]

And usually wayy up the pay grade than the pavement pounders.No such thing as bad men only bad officers who lead them.

bravestar · 21-09-2015 11:01pm

Deaf git wrote: »

Someone who is completely untrustworthy and/ or incompetent.

In any group of 13000 ish people there will be a percentage who fall into this category. There will be further percentages of bone lazy, nuts, bullies and general headcases as there are throughout other branches of the public service and society in general. These categories colour public perception of the rest that just get on with their job.
So don't take it personally.[/quote]

I don't, hence the smile

just some light hearted fun at a silly assertion.

Cass · 22-09-2015 10:08am

It's almost laughable that a few people i've spoken of the last few days have said how this is a disgrace, we've been sold out, and how they'll never "help" again if something else comes along even though most if not all of what has happened was proposed by the SC:

Grizzly quoting the SC statement wrote:

Of significance is the fact that all of the arrangements which the Minister has announced were sought by the Sports Coalition.

I'm not getting into all the crap we went through over the last 18 months again as it's covered in the other thread, but how in the name of God can people be surprised at what was done if the end result is exactly what was sought (by some)? Did not they not realise this was what was being asked for?

BoatMad · 22-09-2015 10:43am

I'm not getting into all the crap we went through over the last 18 months again as it's covered in the other thread, but how in the name of God can people be surprised at what was done if the end result is exactly what was sought (by some)? Did not they not realise this was what was being asked for?

personally I think we did well, given where this process started. The AGS in effect wasn't believed by the Minister and some of the more wacko ideas got shot down

Cass · 22-09-2015 11:13am

As a pistol and semi auto owner i can say it's not as bad as i thought it might have been. I'm not "happy", but i'm not upset or angered. As you said considering where we started from and what may have happened it's about the best we could have hoped for.

To the vast majority it changes nothing. To others it means they cannot apply for something (or more accurately can but may loose it) they never had. To those suffering through DC cases to keep or get back their .22 pistols it's a help. My concern would be what may come in the future (as each new Act has never been overly kind to us) but that is a worry for another day as we may have a different Minster or the same with a different agenda.

BoatMad · 22-09-2015 11:46am

presumably it puts an end to the : bull-pup " nonsense like the ruger etc , it certainly as far as I can see allows a very wide range of 0.22lr handguns to be licensed

Sparks · 22-09-2015 11:51am

No, the bullpup definition still stands (it's part of the Act and can't be changed by SI), but the actual pistol itself is fine (but then that particular one always was - other pistols like the GSGs were running into problems and this should fix that).

Grizzly 45 · 22-09-2015 6:02pm

Thing that i find hilarious about this is now suddenly people who had never a desire to own a semi auto and were actually bad mouthing them,then saying whats the point in applying for one shure they will be gone ,even the lisensed ones..Are now suddenly bitching and moaning about wanting one!!!...And its not fair that others have them and shure if people hadnt fought those court cases we would have been grand...
Effin bloody hyprocrites!!
Why didnt you get off your holes when they were available, buy a cheapish one ,and have liscensed it and maybe taken a DC day out which you would have proably won anyway and had one instead of being another master of Whinese?
Im far from happy on that issue of the sa cf too.But then again they are less than CF handguns and the thing is there is no restriction afaics on being to substitute liscense for those in store or with others here like there is on the CF handguns.If and when we get the FCP up there is still hope that we can argue the cause for them and the central register of restricted firearms by ags.Wonder why that was set up ?Because of the sheer stubbornness of CS not dealing with this fairly.
Its not all doom& gloom on this issue yet.

Deaf git · 23-09-2015 1:18am

Some people are only happy when they have something to bitch about...and when they don't they still bitch.

gunhappy_ie · 25-09-2015 3:58am

Deaf git wrote: »

Some people are only happy when they have something to bitch about...and when they don't they still bitch.

You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time !

Deaf git · 30-09-2015 2:14pm

I wonder when we will see an amended Commissioner's Guidelines that reflects S391/15?

BoatMad · 30-09-2015 2:27pm

Deaf git wrote: »

I wonder when we will see an amended Commissioner's Guidelines that reflects S391/15?

I doubt we will see any , The specific 0.22lr pistol recommendations in the appendix have been withdrawn and there no need to re-instate that as the SI does that.

Deaf git · 30-09-2015 7:27pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I doubt we will see any , The specific 0.22lr pistol recommendations in the appendix have been withdrawn and there no need to re-instate that as the SI does that.

There are sections on the Restricted/Unrestricted (page 9) and Suitable Firearms (page 23 I think) that are now out of kilter with SI391. I'm surprised it hasn't been updated. It was amended last November and there was no new legislation at the time.
Much has been written on these pages about the complexity of the legislation, guidelines are very useful for all involved.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

New SI released, changes to licencing upcoming.

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