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New SI released, changes to licencing upcoming.

1356

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Technology has already moved on again to make even this reduntant.
    For the love of all that's safe, please tell me you're not thinking of buying a bumpfire stock? Those things are one of the stupidest ideas I've ever come across.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    BTW, another point of note - no more barrel length restriction for .22lr handguns. Good news for Walther P22 owners.


    In better news for Walther P22 owners, we make better handguns now and you can buy one :P :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Deaf git


    This SI solves a problem for me and for that I'm happy.
    As for the rest of the Ministers statement, that will be lost among pre electioneering and budget and Christmas and God knows what.

    But will AGS administer this SI any better? Waiting 4 weeks now for a sub on a anschutz 1717 (NIB and orgasmic to look at).


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,934 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    ROTFLMAO!!! Sparks,I might be daft but I'm not that wealthy.Full auto and those kind of yokes are rich peoples playthings .308 at 75 euros for 50!!!
    Errr ....NO! Keeping in mind the famous story of Shotgun slugs here on our little group and the DOJ making them restricted after the last debacle in 08 and they had "never heard of them" and a pending Dail act on possibly CF SA.I'll refrain from mentioning what exactly is out there that makes this obsolete already,and The man" if he is reading here can go find out for himself.;)

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Hey, if it's not bumpfire Grizz, I'm fine with it. I like my .177 :P


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  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Deaf git


    Sparks wrote: »
    BTW, another point of note - no more barrel length restriction for .22lr handguns. Good news for Walther P22 owners.


    In better news for Walther P22 owners, we make better handguns now and you can buy one :P :D

    Have you your deposit ready?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,934 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Deaf git wrote: »
    This SI solves a problem for me and for that I'm happy.
    As for the rest of the Ministers statement, that will be lost among pre electioneering and budget and Christmas and God knows what.

    But will AGS administer this SI any better? Waiting 4 weeks now for a sub on a anschutz 1717 (NIB and orgasmic to look at).


    The Minister intends asking the Garda Inspectorate to review the administration of firearms licensing by An Garda Síochána, following the establishment and operation of the Firearms and Assessment Authority for a 12 month period.

    The Minister has noted the Joint Oireachtas Committee recommendation that the Garda Inspectorate carry out an independent review of the current firearms licensing regime.

    Given the changes now proposed, it is deemed more appropriate to review the administration of firearms licensing by An Garda Síochána when the new arrangements are in place for a 12 month period.


    Guess they mightnt have got that memo just yet!Might be why things have been done by the book at the moment.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    (iii) firearms which are designed for use with 0.22 inch long rifle
    rim fire percussion ammunition and use magazines that have
    been manufactured or modified prior to use so as to
    accommodate no more than five rounds of ammunition”
    .

    The key word there would be "modified" that could cover revolvers but since it refers only to "magazines" and not cylinders you could get a snaggy cop..... !
    But that doesn't say magazine and firearm modified to carry max 5 rds or whatever way you would state that.
    i.e. still that old chestnut about 1 in the spout and 5 in the mag. Or is it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Deaf git wrote: »
    Have you your deposit ready?

    I dunno Deaf, I think my little air pistol is a better .22lr pistol than the P22 :D
    But yeah... that SSP... damn, that would be tempting...


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,934 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Sparks wrote: »
    Hey, if it's not bumpfire Grizz, I'm fine with it. I like my .177 :P

    When you could use your thumb and a belt trouser loop or a boot lace and sling swivels and have the same effect.Why bother?:P

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    But that doesn't say magazine and firearm modified to carry max 5 rds or whatever way you would state that.
    i.e. still that old chestnut about 1 in the spout and 5 in the mag. Or is it?

    No, it sidesteps all that and just says the magazine has to be either manufactured or modified to hold only 5 rounds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    But that doesn't say magazine and firearm modified to carry max 5 rds or whatever way you would state that.
    i.e. still that old chestnut about 1 in the spout and 5 in the mag. Or is it?


    If you are shooting a string of six shots, unfortunately you will still need to have one up the spout. That hasn't changed.

    It would have made things so much better if they had increased the mag capacity to six. So so much better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,934 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    It could also have been a darn sight 100% worse too!!Yeah irratating alright but IF and WHEN this is all finally rolled out ,we do have the possibility of changing things around with the FCP,so long as no one throws their toys out of the pram again on both sides.In fairness,this looks like a pretty good package sofar.The Devil AFAICS is in the future details of what guns are "appropriate" to be liscensed.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    When you could use your thumb and a belt trouser loop or a boot lace and sling swivels and have the same effect.Why bother?:P

    Well, (a) I wouldn't 'cos I like the bit where I hit the target, not the bit where I fire the rifle; (b) because if that sort of thing took off, you'd see an even sharper crackdown and we'd see it applied to any S/A firearm, whether that be rifle, pistol or shotgun...


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭IrishTarget


    Will this now sort out the number of JRs and HC case to do with .22 pistols?

    Or is it a case on waiting on an other SI to sort it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    It could also have been a darn sight 100% worse too!!Yeah irratating alright but IF and WHEN this is all finally rolled out ,we do have the possibility of changing things around with the FCP,so long as no one throws their toys out of the pram again on both sides.In fairness,this looks like a pretty good package sofar.The Devil AFAICS is in the future details of what guns are "appropriate" to be liscensed.

    Yeah, I really hate being optimistic, but this actually doesn't look horrible at all. And even the bits in it that aren't all that great... well, they're pretty much solidly down to shooters rather than politicians which is a change, if not a pleasant one.

    I still want to see the details, but... yeah.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Will this now sort out the number of JRs and HC case to do with .22 pistols?
    Yes. This should short-circuit all of those. In practice if not in law specifically, because if you dropped your application and simultaneously resubmitted exactly the same one, it would no longer be held up over mag capacity concerns.


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭IrishTarget


    Sparks wrote: »
    Yes. This should short-circuit all of those. In practice if not in law specifically, because if you dropped your application and simultaneously resubmitted exactly the same one, it would no longer be held up over mag capacity concerns.

    So, all current JRs and HC cases should be granted in favor of the applicants then? In theory of course!! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    So, all current JRs and HC cases should be granted in favor of the applicants then? In theory of course!! :)

    I am not a barrister, this is not legal advice, but I would expect those cases to be dropped one way or another, and their applicants lives should now get a lot easier.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Sparks wrote: »
    I am not a barrister, this is not legal advice, but I would expect those cases to be dropped one way or another, and their applicants lives should now get a lot easier.

    You don't get to go for your costs then, do you?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    You don't get to go for your costs then, do you?
    Depends on how it ends, but I'd imagine not.

    On the other hand, your costs are lower because you didn't get into the courtroom yet, which is where the astronomical sums rack up; and you're skipping that whole bit where you could lose because of some weird sidebar.

    No such thing as a sure thing in a court, it's an adversarial system run by people!


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭turismo2142


    The issue is moot but they will no doubt still have a hearing as to costs which will involve some manner of consideration of the facts.

    There was the leave stage, the costs of which will at least have to be considered.

    No doubt they'll all be settled in some reduced way from a costs perspective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭gunhappy_ie


    Sparks wrote: »
    I am not a barrister, this is not legal advice, but I would expect those cases to be dropped one way or another, and their applicants lives should now get a lot easier.

    "But your Honor Sparks told me ......." :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    "But your Honor Sparks told me ......." :P

    You would be unpleasantly surprised at how many more people than just me worry about that not being a joke :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭IrishTarget


    Sparks wrote: »
    I am not a barrister, this is not legal advice, but I would expect those cases to be dropped one way or another, and their applicants lives should now get a lot easier.


    Of course and thanks for info.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Press release out:
    http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Minister_Fitzgerald_announces_changes_to_Firearms_Licensing
    Minister Fitzgerald announces changes to Firearms Licensing

    · Proposal to establish new Firearms Assessment and Appeals Authority
    · Immediate cap on licensing of any new centre-fire semi-automatic
    rifles
    · Minister signs new Statutory Instrument re-defining non-restricted
    handguns
    · An Garda Síochána to establish centralised licensing system for
    restricted firearms
    · Garda Inspectorate to review the administration of firearms licensing
    · Re-establishment of Firearms Consultative Panel
    · No changes to the licensing of shotguns and the vast majority of
    rifles which make up 99% of licensed firearms in Ireland.

    18 September, 2015

    Minister Fitzgerald determined to prevent any proliferation of handgun
    availability in Ireland while ensuring that target-shooting can continue in
    a regulated manner

    Frances Fitzgerald TD, Minister for Justice and Equality has today
    announced a series of changes to the licensing of firearms in Ireland.

    This follows widespread consultation with key stakeholders and hearings by
    the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality and Defence on a report
    from a Joint Garda Síochána / Department of Justice and Equality Working
    Group published in November 2014.

    The Minister thanked the Oireachtas Committee for their detailed
    deliberations on this matter and she further thanked An Garda Siochana and
    stakeholders including bodies representing rural and sporting interests for
    their proactive engagement during the Minister’s consultations.

    Minister Fitzgerald stated: “It is clear that there are different,
    genuinely held views as to the approach which should be taken to the
    licensing of firearms in Ireland, particularly in relation to handguns.”

    “I share the concerns of An Garda Síochána in relation to public safety and
    I am determined to prevent any proliferation of handgun availability in
    Ireland. However, I also acknowledge the dedication and responsibility of
    the owners of legally held firearms.


    “I appreciate that certain measures must be taken in the context of the
    current renewal cycle for firearms. Accordingly I am today announcing a
    series of proposals which will address issues in the short term but also
    maps out the longer term future for a licensing system which balances the
    rights of those who wish to pursue their interests with public safety,
    which has to be the paramount consideration.”



    Minister Fitzgerald therefore decided on the following series of measures:

    Establishment of a new Firearms Assessment and Appeals Authority
    The Minister intends to make fundamental long term reforms of firearms
    licensing by establishing a new Firearms Assessment and Appeals Authority.

    The Minister has welcomed the Joint Oireachtas Committee recommendations in relation to the establishment of a national firearms control and advisory
    licensing authority and an independent appeals process in relation to
    decisions of An Garda Síochána.

    The primary function of the Authority will be to determine, on the basis of
    an objective assessment of all the issues, with safety of the public being
    paramount, whether particular forms of firearms may be licensed in the
    State, whether there should be any limit on the number of such firearms and
    what safety conditions might properly be applied to their licensing. The
    functions of the Authority will be subject to further consultation in
    advance of the preparation of the necessary enabling legislation, which
    will be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by the Joint Oireachtas
    Committee.

    Individual licensing decisions will continue to be made by members of An
    Garda Síochána in the light of the determinations made by the Authority but
    it is intended that the Authority will adjudicate on appeals from decisions
    by An Garda Síochána. This will offer an alternative to the current system
    of court appeals.

    Immediate cap on licensing of any new centre-fire semi-automatic rifles
    The Minister intends to introduce an immediate temporary cap on the
    licensing of any new centre-fire semi-automatic rifles pending the
    establishment and determination of the Authority.

    Legislation will provide for the revocation of any licenses issued between
    today (18 September 2015) and the enactment of the legislation and it is intended that anyone applying for licenses of this nature will be informed of that fact.

    New Statutory Instrument re-defining non-restricted handguns
    The Minister has this week signed a new Statutory Instrument re-defining
    what constitutes a non-restricted handgun. This takes account of the Joint
    Oireachtas Committee recommendation in relation to the need to introduce
    secondary legislation in advance of the renewal of many firearms at this
    time.

    The purpose of this legislation is to ensure that, while the Minister, of
    course, cannot interfere with individual licensing decisions, persons who
    currently hold licenses for handguns will be able to reapply for a license
    in the current licensing round. This legislation will clarify for An Garda
    Síochána what firearms may be considered by them for licensing.

    The Minister intends to monitor the number of 0.22 inch rim fire calibre
    handguns being licensed. In line with her commitment to prevent any
    proliferation of handgun availability in Ireland, the Minister today
    announced that if there is a significant increase in the number of
    applications for new certificates or import licence applications for these
    handguns then she will introduce priority legislation for a future cap.

    The current arrangements introduced in 2008 whereby no new licences will be issued for centre fire handguns will remain in place.

    Gardai to establish centralised licensing system for restricted firearms
    The Minister has welcomed the Garda Commissioner's intention to establish a
    centralised licensing system for restricted firearms, pending the
    establishment and determination of an independent body to determine what
    firearms should be licensable.

    Garda Inspectorate to review the administration of firearms licensing
    The Minister intends asking the Garda Inspectorate to review the
    administration of firearms licensing by An Garda Síochána, following the
    establishment and operation of the Firearms Assessment and Appeals
    Authority.

    The Minister has noted the Joint Oireachtas Committee recommendation that
    the Garda Inspectorate carry out an independent review of the current
    firearms licensing regime. Given the changes now proposed, it is deemed
    more appropriate to review the administration of firearms licensing by An
    Garda Síochána when the new arrangements are well in place i.e. 12 months
    after the establishment and operation of the Authority.

    Re-establishment of Firearms Consultative Panel
    The Minister intends to re-establish the Firearms Consultative Panel to
    examine general issues of common concern which could include issues such as
    the establishment of a ballistic record of certain firearms, updated
    storage conditions for firearms and the reloading of ammunition.




    There will be no changes to the licensing of shotguns and rifles which make
    up 99% of licensed firearms in Ireland.

    Minister Fitzgerald stated: “These proposals are aimed at balancing public
    safety and the interests of licensed firearms holders. The new Authority
    will be best placed to make an objective and independent assessment as to
    whether we continue to allow certain firearms to be licensed and result in
    a more transparent licensing system. In the meantime all persons who
    currently hold licences for 0.22 inch rim fire calibre handguns can apply
    to have those licences renewed.”


    Individual firearms licensing decisions have been and continue to be
    subject to judicial review. The findings of the Courts in relation to the
    law on firearms clearly can have implications for the implementation of
    proposals in this area.Minister Fitzgerald announces changes to Firearms Licensing

    Ends


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,323 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Good to see the graduated licencing crap that was put forward was canned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    There's a really good open door right there for us now if we would just walk through it to doing things in a sensible manner with the DoJ & AGS instead of butting heads and pounding tables constantly. We might even be able to save/bring back S/A CF rifles and pistols, though not in the short-term.


  • Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭dc99


    Its looks like it is a reasonable and balanced approace to 'sort' things out regarding the .22 hand guns - to me.

    However, you all seem to be focusing on the 5 mag part and modified to take only -re-read the first bit, it says DESIGNED for use with .22lr ammo...(Paraphrasing a bit :-) )

    I think this still means that the "olympic type" argument is not gonna be used, but the 'that was designed for 9mm combat or police work, all you've done is changed the barrell to .22lr.....' may still apply. even though the guts may be completely different.

    Like the M&P 22 - would love one - and according to the bumf from the manufacture - its designed for those wanting to shoot cheaply (.22lr) or my real favorite the walther PPK that is now out in .22lr. - would love that but can I get a licence for it?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Wouldn't hold up dc99, not in the case of things like the PPK in .22lr because the "designed for" applies to the kind of ammunition it is designed to take, not the use the pistol might be intended for in the mind of some random Garda Superintendent.

    You might have an issue with something like a 9mm pistol with a conversion kit; except that you'd never have licenced that in the first place if it wasn't a complete replacement for internal parts (if it was just a sleeve-type kit).

    It's not perfect; it could have been increased to 6, it could have been written to include revolvers more carefully, and so on; but given what we were all told to expect by the sky-is-falling mob, this is one of the best outcomes we could have hoped for for .22lr pistols. I mean, they've dropped the barrel length requirement, dropped the "designed for Olympics" stuff, and made it explicit that modifying mags is fine.


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