All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

PintOfView · 20-04-2021 12:34pm

eddie73 wrote: »

Big deal if he has a patreon page or PayPal page. The material is free anyway. Donations are not mandatory. He is not alone with a PayPal widget on his page. I don't know this with any accuracy, but he has been around for a long time before covid, so these widgets and subscriptions are more than likely not new.

Debating the material as opposed to the person is what we should be doing. I can include a screenshot of the video if you are not on facebook. This is the problem with de-platforming off youtube. A useful debate suddenly becomes left field and out of bounds.

Are you able to put up a short list of his main bullet points, or a screen shot as you suggest?

eddie73 · 20-04-2021 12:59pm

Thanks!

There is no option for screen shots here unfortunately, only links to images that are already online.

Main points....
References Patrick Oconnor coroner who stated concerns over accuracies in covid death records. Here is the story.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayo-coroner-questions-nphets-figures-for-covid-deaths-40326117.html

Next, he compares 2017 to 2020. Nov 2017 has over 500 excess deaths to Nov 2020.
2020 has but June - Sept of 2017 has more deaths again, to the degree that 2017 has more total deaths than 2020.

Cummins justifies the use of rip.ie stats by comparing the CSO figures concurrently to the rip.ie figures, on a line graph. They are virtually identical.

King Mob · 20-04-2021 1:08pm

eddie73 wrote: »

Thanks!

There is no option for screen shots here unfortunately, only links to images that are already online.

Main points....
References Patrick Oconnor coroner who stated concerns over accuracies in covid death records. Here is the story.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayo-coroner-questions-nphets-figures-for-covid-deaths-40326117.html

Next, he compares 2017 to 2020. Nov 2017 has over 500 excess deaths to Nov 2020.
2020 has but June - Sept of 2017 has more deaths again, to the degree that 2017 has more total deaths than 2020.

Cummins justifies the use of rip.ie stats by comparing the CSO figures concurrently to the rip.ie figures, on a line graph. They are virtually identical.

So what is the claim exactly?
That no one is dying from covid?

robinph · 20-04-2021 1:14pm

eddie73 wrote: »

Thanks!

There is no option for screen shots here unfortunately, only links to images that are already online.

Main points....
References Patrick Oconnor coroner who stated concerns over accuracies in covid death records. Here is the story.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayo-coroner-questions-nphets-figures-for-covid-deaths-40326117.html

Next, he compares 2017 to 2020. Nov 2017 has over 500 excess deaths to Nov 2020.
2020 has but June - Sept of 2017 has more deaths again, to the degree that 2017 has more total deaths than 2020.

Cummins justifies the use of rip.ie stats by comparing the CSO figures concurrently to the rip.ie figures, on a line graph. They are virtually identical.

So he picked a specific year with unusually high flu deaths and compared it to just one month within a year of social distancing, mask wearing, entertainment venues shut, holidays cancelled etc... What exactly is that meant to prove?

Just shows that 2017 was a bad year for the flu, and we were in the middle of dealing with a pandemic during 2020.

eddie73 · 20-04-2021 1:24pm

robinph wrote: »

So he picked a specific year with unusually high flu deaths and compared it to just one month within a year of social distancing, mask wearing, entertainment venues shut, holidays cancelled etc... What exactly is that meant to prove?

Just shows that 2017 was a bad year for the flu, and we were in the middle of dealing with a pandemic during 2020.

Thanks for your answer. I suppose, and can only guess that he picked 2017 exactly for that reason, to compare a bad flu year with a year that we are dealing with covid 19, to give it perspective. I will look at 2018 and 2019 myself. There is no point in leaving it to others to do this, or speculating on those years unless you find your own evidence. rip.ie seems to be more than adequate for this purpose.

eddie73 · 20-04-2021 1:26pm

robinph wrote: »

So he picked a specific year with unusually high flu deaths and compared it to just one month within a year of social distancing, mask wearing, entertainment venues shut, holidays cancelled etc... What exactly is that meant to prove?

Just shows that 2017 was a bad year for the flu, and we were in the middle of dealing with a pandemic during 2020.

No, he compares all months.

Dohnjoe · 20-04-2021 1:46pm

Lockdown measures being further reduced across the UK, for those that have been claiming all this will be permanent, what's their explanation for that?

astrofool · 20-04-2021 1:49pm

eddie73 wrote: »

Thanks for your answer. I suppose, and can only guess that he picked 2017 exactly for that reason, to compare a bad flu year with a year that we are dealing with covid 19, to give it perspective. I will look at 2018 and 2019 myself. There is no point in leaving it to others to do this, or speculating on those years unless you find your own evidence. rip.ie seems to be more than adequate for this purpose.

Just on this type of thinking, as clearly the CSO report isn't out yet so nothing official is available (and the numbers for the officially available months of 2020 are above the death count of the previous year).

Because we had lockdown and social distancing, the number of deaths last year will be different to other years, the lockdowns reduced COVID deaths significantly, but also accidental deaths and other deaths from communicative diseases. The answer isn't that we could have opened up a bit more and had a "normal" amount of deaths last year, the problem with an infectious disease is that opening up a bit can lead to a lot of excess deaths as we saw with just a few weeks at Christmas (and these deaths won't be reported on until the 2021 stats come out leading to lots of people frothing at the mouth that December 2020 was below normal for deaths I'm sure).

PintOfView · 20-04-2021 2:01pm

eddie73 wrote: »

Thanks!

There is no option for screen shots here unfortunately, only links to images that are already online.

Main points....
References Patrick Oconnor coroner who stated concerns over accuracies in covid death records. Here is the story.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayo-coroner-questions-nphets-figures-for-covid-deaths-40326117.html

Next, he compares 2017 to 2020. Nov 2017 has over 500 excess deaths to Nov 2020.
2020 has but June - Sept of 2017 has more deaths again, to the degree that 2017 has more total deaths than 2020.

Cummins justifies the use of rip.ie stats by comparing the CSO figures concurrently to the rip.ie figures, on a line graph. They are virtually identical.

Ok, I had seen that a coroner had questioned the accuracy of with covid vs of covid deaths, etc.
I think there will always be a blurred line between with covid, vs of covid.
So excess deaths are probably a better gauge of what's happening.

I'd have to see Ivor Cummins' numbers in more detail to comment on them.

However, see these ...
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/fb/b-mpds/measuringmortalityusingpublicdatasources2019-2020/
https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-ireland-excess-deaths-covid-19-5376262-Mar2021/

From the CSO link,
April 2020 = 3,500 deaths,
Avg for April over prev 4 years was 2,500

It's seems pretty clear the extra 1,000 deaths in April 2020 had to be due to Covid.
However monthly deaths returned quickly to normal for the rest of the year
So the yearly excess deaths might not be too much above normal
(Dec infections wouldn't have resulted in deaths till Jan, and I'd expect to see a bit jump in Jan when the numbers are available)

So the next thing is what conclusion can we draw from that?

If we didn't have a lockdown, and social distancing, and the other measures, etc.,
it would have suggested the virus wasn't too serious.

However we did have a lockdown, and all the other restrictions,
so that make it difficult to say what 'would' have happened if we didn't lock down, etc.

One thing we can do here is to look at the experience in other countries.
A convenient one to look at is the CDC web site in the US https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
That page has a graph that shows weekly deaths from all causes for the past 4 years.

See below for a screen shot of that graph.
The orange line is the threshold for excess deaths.
You can see that from April 2020 to April 2021 they've had a lot more deaths than normal.
And that's even with lockdowns (perhaps not everywhere, and not observed as much as here, etc)

So, just from that graph it's fair to say that we were justified in at least having respect for this virus,
and very likely our restrictions saved a lot of lives.

I'm not sure what Ivor Cummins' conclusions were, but do they tally with this picture?

Note on the graph, deaths can take a couple of months to get registered
(so it may have improved in the past few weeks, but not as dramatically as the graph suggests)

eddie73 · 20-04-2021 2:32pm

PintOfView wrote: »

Ok, I had seen that a coroner had questioned the accuracy of with covid vs of covid deaths, etc.
I think there will always be a blurred line between with covid, vs of covid.
So excess deaths are probably a better gauge of what's happening.

I'd have to see Ivor Cummins' numbers in more detail to comment on them.

However, see these ...
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/fb/b-mpds/measuringmortalityusingpublicdatasources2019-2020/
https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-ireland-excess-deaths-covid-19-5376262-Mar2021/

From the CSO link,
April 2020 = 3,500 deaths,
Avg for April over prev 4 years was 2,500

It's seems pretty clear the extra 1,000 deaths in April 2020 had to be due to Covid.
However monthly deaths returned quickly to normal for the rest of the year
So the yearly excess deaths might not be too much above normal
(Dec infections wouldn't have resulted in deaths till Jan, and I'd expect to see a bit jump in Jan when the numbers are available)

So the next thing is what conclusion can we draw from that?

If we didn't have a lockdown, and social distancing, and the other measures, etc.,
it would have suggested the virus wasn't too serious.

However we did have a lockdown, and all the other restrictions,
so that make it difficult to say what 'would' have happened if we didn't lock down, etc.

One thing we can do here is to look at the experience in other countries.
A convenient one to look at is the CDC web site in the US https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
That page has a graph that shows weekly deaths from all causes for the past 4 years.

See below for a screen shot of that graph.
The orange line is the threshold for excess deaths.
You can see that from April 2020 to April 2021 they've had a lot more deaths than normal.
And that's even with lockdowns (perhaps not everywhere, and not observed as much as here, etc)

So, just from that graph it's fair to say that we were justified in at least having respect for this virus,
and very likely our restrictions saved a lot of lives.

I'm not sure what Ivor Cummins' conclusions were, but do they tally with this picture?

Note on the graph, deaths can take a couple of months to get registered
(so it may have improved in the past few weeks, but not as dramatically as the graph suggests)

Excellent info thank you!

I think we know what Ivor Cummins believes. He is not covert in his opinions.

I have looked at rip.ie as a source and noticed deaths in January of this year are very high. Feb is likewise high but not as bad. Nov and Dec of 2020 relative to preceding years are almost at parity. He doesn't make reference to this. Maybe for another time, but I would have preferred if these months were included.

patnor1011 · 20-04-2021 7:44pm

PintOfView wrote: »

Ok, I had seen that a coroner had questioned the accuracy of with covid vs of covid deaths, etc.
I think there will always be a blurred line between with covid, vs of covid.
So excess deaths are probably a better gauge of what's happening.

I'd have to see Ivor Cummins' numbers in more detail to comment on them.

However, see these ...
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/fb/b-mpds/measuringmortalityusingpublicdatasources2019-2020/
https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-ireland-excess-deaths-covid-19-5376262-Mar2021/

From the CSO link,
April 2020 = 3,500 deaths,
Avg for April over prev 4 years was 2,500

It's seems pretty clear the extra 1,000 deaths in April 2020 had to be due to Covid.
However monthly deaths returned quickly to normal for the rest of the year
So the yearly excess deaths might not be too much above normal
(Dec infections wouldn't have resulted in deaths till Jan, and I'd expect to see a bit jump in Jan when the numbers are available)

So the next thing is what conclusion can we draw from that?

If we didn't have a lockdown, and social distancing, and the other measures, etc.,
it would have suggested the virus wasn't too serious.

However we did have a lockdown, and all the other restrictions,
so that make it difficult to say what 'would' have happened if we didn't lock down, etc.

One thing we can do here is to look at the experience in other countries.
A convenient one to look at is the CDC web site in the US https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
That page has a graph that shows weekly deaths from all causes for the past 4 years.

See below for a screen shot of that graph.
The orange line is the threshold for excess deaths.
You can see that from April 2020 to April 2021 they've had a lot more deaths than normal.
And that's even with lockdowns (perhaps not everywhere, and not observed as much as here, etc)

So, just from that graph it's fair to say that we were justified in at least having respect for this virus,
and very likely our restrictions saved a lot of lives.

I'm not sure what Ivor Cummins' conclusions were, but do they tally with this picture?

Note on the graph, deaths can take a couple of months to get registered
(so it may have improved in the past few weeks, but not as dramatically as the graph suggests)

Lockdowns have nothing to do with this. Excess in April was simply due to emptying hospitals and shipping vulnerable people to nursing houses where care was simply put not the same they would get in hospitals.
Lockdowns and their effectivity is holy grail for people who live in a fantasy "what if" land. Real examples of how they work or rather not work can be seen in real life like for example like nobody can explain funny fact that states in the USA with the most lockdown had the most deaths compared to states with very little of restrictions if any. There are states mainly in what we call developing nations with barely functioning health system and pretty much zero lockdowns or restrictions and strangely enough there is no end of the times or some mass covid extinction event going on.

PintOfView · 20-04-2021 8:16pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Lockdowns have nothing to do with this. Excess in April was simply due to emptying hospitals and shipping vulnerable people to nursing houses where care was simply put not the same they would get in hospitals.
Lockdowns and their effectivity is holy grail for people who live in a fantasy "what if" land. Real examples of how they work or rather not work can be seen in real life like for example like nobody can explain funny fact that states in the USA with the most lockdown had the most deaths compared to states with very little of restrictions if any. There are states mainly in what we call developing nations with barely functioning health system and pretty much zero lockdowns or restrictions and strangely enough there is no end of the times or some mass covid extinction event going on.

I can't see how just shipping people from hospitals to nursing homes caused them to die.
Surely they would have picked people who were judged not to need continuing hospital care.
Are you saying Covid had nothing to do with it?
What makes you believe what you say?

As regards lockdowns not working.
You're saying that states in the US with the most lockdowns had the most deaths,
compared to states with very little restrictions.

Fair enough, but that's easy to say, even if it wasn't true. Can you give me a few examples?
so, a few states with lockdowns and lots of deaths,
and states with no restrictions and low deaths?

Dohnjoe · 20-04-2021 8:19pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Lockdowns have nothing to do with this. Excess in April was simply due to emptying hospitals and shipping vulnerable people to nursing houses where care was simply put not the same they would get in hospitals.
Lockdowns and their effectivity is holy grail for people who live in a fantasy "what if" land. Real examples of how they work or rather not work can be seen in real life like for example like nobody can explain funny fact that states in the USA with the most lockdown had the most deaths compared to states with very little of restrictions if any. There are states mainly in what we call developing nations with barely functioning health system and pretty much zero lockdowns or restrictions and strangely enough there is no end of the times or some mass covid extinction event going on.

Bizarre views.

It's a highly infectious disease, it spreads when people are in close contact. Reducing that contact reduces the spread. It's not rocket science.

eddie73 · 20-04-2021 8:34pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Lockdowns have nothing to do with this. Excess in April was simply due to emptying hospitals and shipping vulnerable people to nursing houses where care was simply put not the same they would get in hospitals.
Lockdowns and their effectivity is holy grail for people who live in a fantasy "what if" land. Real examples of how they work or rather not work can be seen in real life like for example like nobody can explain funny fact that states in the USA with the most lockdown had the most deaths compared to states with very little of restrictions if any. There are states mainly in what we call developing nations with barely functioning health system and pretty much zero lockdowns or restrictions and strangely enough there is no end of the times or some mass covid extinction event going on.

The graph you are reacting to is a global graph rather than an Irish one, so the point of emptying the hospitals in April and sending them to nursing homes is not applicable, unless they did this globally. States with most deaths in the usa were the most densely populated states so the efficacy of lockdowns/no lockdowns would have to be examined a bit more closely. Where are these countries in question?

Pinch Flat · 20-04-2021 8:36pm

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1209560/

Of course the kildare coroner would disagree with no increase in deaths. But hey MSM so he's probably paid by Bill gates/ George Soros/ big Pharma

Dohnjoe · 20-04-2021 9:59pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1209560/

Of course the kildare coroner would disagree with no increase in deaths. But hey MSM so he's probably paid by Bill gates/ George Soros/ big Pharma

Conspiracy theorists and Covid deniers have been attempting to round down death figures since the start. Which is really grim stuff when you think about it. No different from Holocaust deniers.

eddie73 · 21-04-2021 10:03am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Conspiracy theorists and Covid deniers have been attempting to round down death figures since the start. Which is really grim stuff when you think about it. No different from Holocaust deniers.

I wouldn't go that far. There are many people with healthy skepticism about covid while there are many others who will jump on any conspiracy train for the hell of it without thinking out their arguments.
Patrick O'Connor is a trained coroner. I wouldn't call him a conspiracy theorist in the literal sense of the word. All he is calling for is a debate on the recording of deaths, which co morbidity is a major factor.

Good things to come out of this sort of skepticism would be highlighting the need for people to tackle their obesity, blood sugar levels, hyper tension levels and cancer predictors. If people were told that correcting these issues would massively increase their chances of dealing with covid without going to hospital, it is win win for the world. But as it stands, we are in a false dilemma about how we should tackle this. The only game in town is social distancing and vaccination. Social distancing and mask wearing is not going to prevent the spread of covid especially when economies start to limp back into action. The vaccine dilemma is only starting. This is especially true when you consider 2 staff members have tested positive for covid having received both vaccines. Where does this sort of stat lead us? More vaccines, more vaccines, variants, more vaccines?

I dont see an end to this. The only way is to take personal responsibility of your own health as much as you can, so when you do end up ill, you have given yourself a much much better chance of getting through a list of illnesses, as opposed to being helpless and reliant exclusively on the health services.

Dohnjoe · 21-04-2021 11:40am

eddie73 wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far. There are many people with healthy skepticism about covid while there are many others who will jump on any conspiracy train for the hell of it without thinking out their arguments.
Patrick O'Connor is a trained coroner. I wouldn't call him a conspiracy theorist in the literal sense of the word. All he is calling for is a debate on the recording of deaths, which co morbidity is a major factor.

I am not referring to the coroner, I am referring to conspiracy theorists and Covid deniers, those on this forum, who have been attacking the global death figures since the beginning in order to reduce them, to fit a contrived narrative. That's not healthy skepticism, it's denial. Very similar to history revisionism and denial.

Dohnjoe · 21-04-2021 1:06pm

So Ted Nugent, who previously called Covid-19 a "scam", has tested positive
https://abc7.com/ted-nugent-covid-statement-facebook-has/10531394/

The article also highlights the usual correlations

Nugent, a supporter of ex-President Donald Trump, previously called the pandemic a scam and has railed against public health restrictions. He has repeated a narrative pushed by conservative media and disputed by health experts that suggests the official death count from the coronavirus is inflated.

A poll by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research in late March found that 36% of Republicans said they will probably or definitely not get vaccinated, compared with 12% of Democrats. The seven-day national average of cases remains over 60,000 new infections per day.

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 2:18pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

So Ted Nugent, who previously called Covid-19 a "scam", has tested positive
https://abc7.com/ted-nugent-covid-statement-facebook-has/10531394/

The article also highlights the usual correlations

This is ridiculous. Being tested positive and getting ill are 2 very different scenarios particularly with covid where well over half of "cases" or "tested positive" never develop a single symptom never mind any illness.
That is what tests most of the time show us - detected fragments of corona viruses or built up antibodies from past infections. It is well over a year and by the end of this one pretty much everyone will be "tested positive" at some stage.

Talking about covid deniers and comparing people with different opinion to holocaust denier is complete crazy stuff. It is flat out kindergarten stuff.
You go in so much extreme that some people may call you covid fanatic. Extremes on both sides are usually populated by people with generally very low IQ.

People can cite studies or newspaper articles we do have saying in a sense that paper never complains about what is printed on it but real life do have its own experiences which many times differ from what people think that it is happening.

People can either sit at home scared waiting for end of the world which is not coming any time soon anyway or just carry on. Simple look out of a window indicate how the situation is changing and quite rapidly. The only thing locked down at this moment is economy, most of the people moved on.

The Nal · 21-04-2021 2:21pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

This is ridiculous. Being tested positive and getting ill are 2 very different scenarios particularly with covid where well over half of "cases" or "tested positive" never develop a single symptom never mind any illness.

Did you read what Ted Nugent said?

"I thought I was dying".

"I literally could hardly crawl out of bed the last few days"

King Mob · 21-04-2021 2:25pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Talking about covid deniers and comparing people with different opinion to holocaust denier is complete crazy stuff. It is flat out kindergarten stuff.
You go in so much extreme that some people may call you covid fanatic. Extremes on both sides are usually populated by people with generally very low IQ.

Over 3 million people have died due to covid.
People on this thread have claimed that covid isn't real among other claims that the number is being inflated for various nefarious reasons they can't detail or explain.

These are the same tactics and arguments used by holocaust deniers unfortunately.

If you don't like the apt comparison, maybe stop using the same tactics?

patnor1011 wrote: »

People can cite studies or newspaper articles we do have saying in a sense that paper never complains about what is printed on it but real life do have its own experiences which many times differ from what people think that it is happening.

This is borderline incoherent. However, you seem to be saying that all studies are invalid.
Why do you believe this?
Are the scientists behind the studies just stupid? Or are they part of a conspiracy?

Dohnjoe · 21-04-2021 2:36pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Talking about covid deniers and comparing people with different opinion to holocaust denier is complete crazy stuff. It is flat out kindergarten stuff.
You go in so much extreme that some people may call you covid fanatic. Extremes on both sides are usually populated by people with generally very low IQ.

They use the same techniques.

Deniers attack and distort information in order to create doubt. This thread has been full of Covid deniers doing nothing but that. They try to cast doubt on the figures in order to attempt to revise them downward. This is because they have beliefs that the pandemic is "fake" and that the deaths are "overblown", the figures "fudged", in order to scare/control the populace, yadda yadda. Using the exact same techniques as other groups who deny death figures to fit a twisted agenda.

As soon they are asked for real figures (and they've been repeatedly asked in this and other threads) they can never provide any, they can't provide their methodology, nothing.

King Mob · 21-04-2021 2:51pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They use the same techniques.

Deniers attack and distort information in order to create doubt. This thread has been full of Covid deniers doing nothing but that. They try to cast doubt on the figures in order to attempt to revise them downward. This is because they have beliefs that the pandemic is "fake" and that the deaths are "overblown", the figures "fudged", in order to scare/control the populace, yadda yadda. Using the exact same techniques as other groups who deny death figures to fit a twisted agenda.

As soon they are asked for real figures (and they've been repeatedly asked in this and other threads) they can never provide any, they can't provide their methodology, nothing.

"We're not saying all the deaths are fake, just the numbers are being exaggerated by the conspiracy."
"We'd show evidence, but all the real research is being suppressed."
"Here's a random quote out of context that I interpret to support the conspiracy theory."
"Here's some rando who is/claims to be an expert who claims something wild with no evidence."

PintOfView · 21-04-2021 5:29pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Lockdowns have nothing to do with this. Excess in April was simply due to emptying hospitals and shipping vulnerable people to nursing houses where care was simply put not the same they would get in hospitals.
Lockdowns and their effectivity is holy grail for people who live in a fantasy "what if" land. Real examples of how they work or rather not work can be seen in real life like for example like nobody can explain funny fact that states in the USA with the most lockdown had the most deaths compared to states with very little of restrictions if any. There are states mainly in what we call developing nations with barely functioning health system and pretty much zero lockdowns or restrictions and strangely enough there is no end of the times or some mass covid extinction event going on.

PintOfView wrote: »

I can't see how just shipping people from hospitals to nursing homes caused them to die.
Surely they would have picked people who were judged not to need continuing hospital care.
Are you saying Covid had nothing to do with it?
What makes you believe what you say?

As regards lockdowns not working.
You're saying that states in the US with the most lockdowns had the most deaths,
compared to states with very little restrictions.

Fair enough, but that's easy to say, even if it wasn't true. Can you give me a few examples?
so, a few states with lockdowns and lots of deaths,
and states with no restrictions and low deaths?

You haven't given any examples to justify your recent post.

Are you interested in getting to the truth/reality of the situation?
Or are you content to push second hand ideas which you can't justify?

Can I assume from your silence that you are not able to back up your assertions?

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 8:07pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They use the same techniques.

Deniers attack and distort information in order to create doubt. This thread has been full of Covid deniers doing nothing but that. They try to cast doubt on the figures in order to attempt to revise them downward. This is because they have beliefs that the pandemic is "fake" and that the deaths are "overblown", the figures "fudged", in order to scare/control the populace, yadda yadda. Using the exact same techniques as other groups who deny death figures to fit a twisted agenda.

As soon they are asked for real figures (and they've been repeatedly asked in this and other threads) they can never provide any, they can't provide their methodology, nothing.

You talk about distortion when it may be revision or new facts come to consideration. You seems to think that what you hear now is a gospel and never change because you know, science... studies... predictions...
Do you remember how we were bombarded with info how virus survive such and such time on here or there, people were afraid to handle cash, take groceries or god forbid brush against someone. Some people still believe that and walk around in rubber gloves that kind you use when cleaning oven.
According to CDC report from last week chance to get covid from contaminated surface is 1 in 10,000 which is pretty much nothing.
We still learn new stuff but some people refuse to accept new findings and cling on craziness.
Even Fauci cant explain difference between deaths in California which is one of the most restricted US states with those in Florida which has preciously little to none restrictions.

Well, I said it many times. I have nothing against you wearing mask, refusing to move out of your own house and eagerly awaiting some vaccine or all of them. Do what you feel you should do.
I do not suffer from doomsday pandemic scare and live my life as full as I can. As another poster mentioned your outlook is pretty much equal to your lifestyle choices not just with covid but many other more deadlier stuff.

Fighting Tao · 21-04-2021 8:08pm

It’s actually quite funny. People on this thread would do anything to avoid sitting with a known covid positive person, yet everything is a conspiracy &#55357;&#56834;

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 8:28pm

PintOfView wrote: »

You haven't given any examples to justify your recent post.

Are you interested in getting to the truth/reality of the situation?
Or are you content to push second hand ideas which you can't justify?

Can I assume from your silence that you are not able to back up your assertions?

Forgive me for not realizing you are Justifying Authority. Pretty much every country with a lot of deaths in recent past had the most of them precisely in nursing houses. I am not going to debate level of care in nursing house and hospital - they simply are not on the same level and everyone knows that.

Plenty of examples all around the world. I will give you better one. Since I work in a place which dealt with "outbreak" where 20% of residents tested positive first time and about the same second time few months after, I do have pretty much firsthand experience with this deadly pandemic. So much actually that despite being in one of the most vulnerable category I politely refused AZ vaccine which was offered to me about 3 weeks ago. I figured that since there are people who are so scared that they barely can function they will be one place ahead.

Dohnjoe · 21-04-2021 8:35pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Forgive me for not realizing you are Justifying Authority. Pretty much every country with a lot of deaths in recent past had the most of them precisely in nursing houses. I am not going to debate level of care in nursing house and hospital - they simply are not on the same level and everyone knows that.

Plenty of examples all around the world. I will give you better one. Since I work in a place which dealt with "outbreak" where 20% of residents tested positive first time and about the same second time few months after, I do have pretty much firsthand experience with this deadly pandemic. So much actually that despite being in one of the most vulnerable category I politely refused AZ vaccine which was offered to me about 3 weeks ago. I figured that since there are people who are so scared that they barely can function they will be one place ahead.

A lot of anecdotal stuff going on here.

Approx. 3 million people have died globally as a result of Covid 19, according to you, is that correct or not? (a yes/no will do)

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 8:43pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

It’s actually quite funny. People on this thread would do anything to avoid sitting with a known covid positive person, yet everything is a conspiracy ��

Funny indeed. Both extremes in plain view. Everyone so sure about their info being the holiest truth out there it feels like a waste of time to even try to debate something.
Since some people literally have nothing else to do but to sit on internet and soak in every crazy thing they like it is hard to engage. If you do not conform to their view in full you suddenly become holocaust denier.

Lol world did not cease to exist and will not do so any time soon. And certainly not because of this "deadly pandemic which if not restricted would spread like wildfire with people dropping dead on the streets" (that is my favorite one)

PintOfView · 21-04-2021 8:47pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Forgive me for not realizing you are Justifying Authority.

If you think I am simply justifying authority then you have jumped to the wrong conclusion.
I try to get to the objective reality of the situation, nothing more.
You may wish to recalibrate how you attribute supposed motives to other people!

patnor1011 wrote: »

Pretty much every country with a lot of deaths in recent past had the most of them precisely in nursing houses. I am not going to debate level of care in nursing house and hospital - they simply are not on the same level and everyone knows that.

Plenty of examples all around the world. I will give you better one. Since I work in a place which dealt with "outbreak" where 20% of residents tested positive first time and about the same second time few months after, I do have pretty much firsthand experience with this deadly pandemic. So much actually that despite being in one of the most vulnerable category I politely refused AZ vaccine which was offered to me about 3 weeks ago. I figured that since there are people who are so scared that they barely can function they will be one place ahead.

I won't argue with you about nursing homes as you have experience of them and I don't.

However what I will argue with you about are the statements and claims you made in an earlier post,
and for which you have provided no backup information so far.

If you are genuinely interested in the objective truth you should be able to either:
a) provide references that back up your claims that the most restrictive states
in the US had the highest deaths, while the least restrictive had the lowest. or
b) if you have checked it out, and found you are mistaken, be gracious enough to admit it.

In a sea of misinformation it is not unreasonable for you to fact check me, and vice versa,
and we all need to be working off reality in order to make sound decisions.

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 8:55pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

A lot of anecdotal stuff going on here.

Approx. 3 million people have died globally as a result of Covid 19, according to you, is that correct or not? (a yes/no will do)

Lol nothing anecdotal being frontline worker I can assure you. Longer hours and more to do than before.

And do you think that this is some extraordinary number?
About 60 million people die every year, 3 out of 60 is nothing to be afraid of.

Now if you had a crystal ball perhaps you could tell me how many of those 3 million would die if no covid came and they got just a flu for example or how many of these people had serious other life threatening diseases. You cant since it stopped to be reported precisely because covid is only one of usually 2-3 other ailments which caused majority of them to die.

Dohnjoe · 21-04-2021 8:58pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

And do you think that this is some extraordinary number?
About 60 million people die every year, 3 out of 60 is nothing to be afraid of.

Now if you had a crystal ball perhaps you could tell me how many of those 3 million would die if no covid came and they got just a flu for example or how many of these people had serious other life threatening diseases. You cant since it stopped to be reported precisely because covid is only one of usually 2-3 other ailments which caused majority of them to die.

It's a straightforward question, to ask again, approx. 3 million people have died globally as a result of Covid 19, according to you, is that correct or not? (a yes/no will do)

If no, then how many have died as a result according to you?

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 9:10pm

PintOfView wrote: »

If you think I am simply justifying authority then you have jumped to the wrong conclusion.
I try to get to the objective reality of the situation, nothing more.
You may wish to recalibrate how you attribute supposed motives to other people!

I won't argue with you about nursing homes as you have experience of them and I don't.

However what I will argue with you about are the statements and claims you made in an earlier post,
and for which you have provided no backup information so far.

If you are genuinely interested in the objective truth you should be able to either:
a) provide references that back up your claims that the most restrictive states
in the US had the highest deaths, while the least restrictive had the lowest. or
b) if you have checked it out, and found you are mistaken, be gracious enough to admit it.

In a sea of misinformation it is not unreasonable for you to fact check me, and vice versa,
and we all need to be working off reality in order to make sound decisions.

I do not know. I apologize if I offended you, seems you want to find your objective truth crunching some numbers you find on internet and I just live it day in day out.
I should have go on PUP as it was suggested to me and take a year of paid holiday earning couple hundred less but enjoying back garden and my hobbies perhaps even become self-taught pandemic expert like most of posters here.
After first few weeks of this I realized what this is and I know I would go crazy if I tried so I just keep going as if nothing is happening because... pretty much nothing is happening anyway.

Timberrrrrrrr · 21-04-2021 9:13pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Lol nothing anecdotal being frontline worker I can assure you. Longer hours and more to do than before.

And do you think that this is some extraordinary number?
About 60 million people die every year, 3 out of 60 is nothing to be afraid of.

Now if you had a crystal ball perhaps you could tell me how many of those 3 million would die if no covid came and they got just a flu for example or how many of these people had serious other life threatening diseases. You cant since it stopped to be reported precisely because covid is only one of usually 2-3 other ailments which caused majority of them to die.

If I offered you a sweet from a bag of 60 and told you that 3 of them are poison and would kill you would you happily dip in and take a sweet?

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 9:30pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

If I offered you a sweet from a bag of 60 and told you that 3 of them are poison and would kill you would you happily dip in and take a sweet?

Apples and oranges.
You seems to forget people live and people die.
60 died last year and 3 of them with covid.
18 died from cardiovascular diseases.
10 from cancer
Around 9 die from hunger and hunger related diseases. That to me is way scarier than covid.

So even if current estimate of 3 is correct that number is nothing to be scared about. You do have far bigger chance to die from cancer than with covid. And if you get a cancer then covid may very well be the thing that push you through the edge. Or flu, or just plain old cold.

Timberrrrrrrr · 21-04-2021 9:34pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Apples and oranges.
You seems to forget people live and people die.
60 died last year and 3 of them with covid.
18 died from cardiovascular diseases.
10 from cancer
Around 9 die from hunger and hunger related diseases. That to me is way scarier than covid.

So you won't answer the question?

So even if current estimate of 3 is correct that number is nothing to be scared about. You do have far bigger chance to die from cancer than with covid. And if you get a cancer then covid may very well be the thing that push you through the edge. Or flu, or just plain old cold.

Yes I could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow, but if I walk into a shop/restaurant/bar there is zero chance of me passing that cancer on to others.

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 9:34pm

LOL my wife says I am pessimist but the amount of fearmongering which goes on here is way too much even for me.

Dohnjoe · 21-04-2021 9:43pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Apples and oranges.
You seems to forget people live and people die.
60 died last year and 3 of them with covid.
18 died from cardiovascular diseases.
10 from cancer
Around 9 die from hunger and hunger related diseases. That to me is way scarier than covid.

So even if current estimate of 3 is correct that number is nothing to be scared about. You do have far bigger chance to die from cancer than with covid. And if you get a cancer then covid may very well be the thing that push you through the edge. Or flu, or just plain old cold.

Cancer is not an infectious disease.

LOL my wife says I am pessimist but the amount of fearmongering which goes on here is way too much even for me.

How many avoidable deaths would vaguely start to concern you? 100 million?

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 9:46pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So you won't answer the question?

Because your question is pretty illogical. Pure kindergarten stuff.
There would be 7860M sweets in a bag and 60M of them will be poison out of which 3M will be covid. And sooner or later every one will have to pick one.
Or do you think you are immortal?

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yes I could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow, but if I walk into a shop/restaurant/bar there is zero chance of me passing that cancer on to others.

Buddy, you and me and everyone else do have hundreds of trillions of viruses bacteria or funghi in our bodies and it is estimated that even healthy person harbor an average of 5 deadly viruses to which they may be immune but others are not.
So yes, when you walk into shop/restaurant/bar you are passing something onto someone else. Every. Single. Time.

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 10:01pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Cancer is not an infectious disease.

Incomparable death rate. Cancer is far deadlier than covid.
You need to realize that covid is nothing compared to many other infectious diseases.
Ever heard of tuberculosis? That one alone kill 1 in 10.
HIV? Hepatitis? All of them pretty much death sentences with only some prolonging life but suffering from it till you die.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

How many avoidable deaths would vaguely start to concern you? 100 million?

That is little incoherent. You are the one who is obsessed with deaths. I am at a peace with a fact that people live and people die. You seems to think that you can avoid death which is a little strange.

Dohnjoe · 21-04-2021 10:09pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

Incomparable death rate. Cancer is far deadlier than covid.
You need to realize that covid is nothing compared to many other infectious diseases.
Ever heard of tuberculosis? That one alone kill 1 in 10.
HIV? Hepatitis? All of them pretty much death sentences with only some prolonging life but suffering from it till you die.

It isn't a competition.

The key threat from Covid is not just deaths, but overwhelming domestic health services.

You seems to think that you can avoid death which is a little strange.

Covid is an avoidable infectious disease, meaning mitigating measures can be taken to reduce cases, and as a result reduce deaths. You do comprehend this correct?

patnor1011 · 21-04-2021 10:24pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It isn't a competition.

The key threat from Covid is not just deaths, but overwhelming domestic health services.

That is tired and false argument as our health services were overwhelmed and collapsing last 15 years at least.
My current health issues are direct result of excellence of our precious health system which you claim we saved.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Covid is an avoidable infectious disease, meaning mitigating measures can be taken to reduce cases, and as a result reduce deaths. You do comprehend this correct?

Seems that you do not comprehend. Covid is not avoidable unless you move on skelig and do not allow anyone to come in there. It is as avoidable as flu or cold. That means that some years you may be lucky and you do not get it.
Majority of those who died by the way had some underlying health issues and guess what? People with serious comorbidities will have a hard time to survive covid in the future anyway.
We were told quite a few times already that maybe second or third generation of vaccines may offer some protection. That is if we manage to make them considering virus mutate we may be in the same situation as we are with flu jabs which are estimated to have about 20% efficiency. That is if they get the strain right.

Fighting Tao · 21-04-2021 10:28pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

That is tired and false argument as our health services were overwhelmed and collapsing last 15 years at least.
My current health issues are direct result of excellence of our precious health system which you claim we saved.

So you think loads of covid patients that have to be isolated, on top of the already “overwhelmed and collapsing” health system wouldn’t have made any difference to death rates of covid and other people that should be getting treatment?

Fighting Tao · 21-04-2021 10:33pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

We were told quite a few times already that maybe second or third generation of vaccines may offer some protection. That is if we manage to make them considering virus mutate we may be in the same situation as we are with flu jabs which are estimated to have about 20% efficiency. That is if they get the strain right.

Who said about the second and third generation vaccines? I don’t recall hearing or seeing them mentioned. Also, please provide evidence of the flu vaccine 20%. I am not familiar with that either.

King Mob · 21-04-2021 11:52pm

patnor1011 wrote: »

LOL my wife says I am pessimist but the amount of fearmongering which goes on here is way too much even for me.

Again, you and other conspiracy theorists are suggesting that the covid numbers are being faked because there is a secret global conspiracy to fake the pandemic for the purposes of installing a communist government/force people to take a deadly vaccines that will alter our DNA.

Why do you believe these claims aren't scaremongering?

Dohnjoe · 22-04-2021 12:17am

patnor1011 wrote: »

Covid is not avoidable unless you move on skelig and do not allow anyone to come in there. It is as avoidable as flu or cold.

Christ

Masks, social distancing and measures reduce the spread of an infectious airborne virus, why do you think flu figures dropped so sharply this year, coincidence?

Dohnjoe · 22-04-2021 12:30am

patnor1011 wrote: »

That is tired and false argument as our health services were overwhelmed and collapsing last 15 years at least.
My current health issues are direct result of excellence of our precious health system which you claim we saved.

So to sum up your argument so far

"Lockdowns don't work"
"People die anyway"
"Cancer kills X amount per year, so what's a few million dead from Covid"
"An avoidable contagious disease is unavoidable"

You should be a health minister in Brazil

King Mob · 22-04-2021 12:37am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Christ

Masks, social distancing and measures reduce the spread of an infectious airborne virus, why do you think flu figures dropped so sharply this year, coincidence?

We been told that this is because the giant conspiracy is mislabeling the flu as Corona virus.
But when we try to get any details on this claim, conspiracy theorists run away.

Dohnjoe · 22-04-2021 12:49am

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/mvicaw/doctors_of_reddit_what_happened_when_you/

Medical staff posting anecdotal views of treating Covid deniers who had Covid. Similar stories to many I've read in the press. People will literally die out of spite and stupidity.

All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

Comments