2018-2027 National Development Plan

Donegal Storm · 16-02-2018 6:45pm

Haven't had a chance to look through the plan yet but are there completion dates listed for all these schemes or are they to continue at the current snails pace until the they're delayed again in the next downturn?

joujoujou · 17-02-2018 10:05am

Donegal Storm wrote: »

[...] are there completion dates listed for all these schemes or are they to continue at the current snails pace until the they're delayed again in the next downturn?

Very unlikely the government would give themselves deadlines for those schemes. Some of them (I really hope I'm wrong) look like a wishlist rather than a plan.

marno21 · 17-02-2018 1:07pm

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Haven't had a chance to look through the plan yet but are there completion dates listed for all these schemes or are they to continue at the current snails pace until the they're delayed again in the next downturn?

No timelines in the plan, but feel free to ask on any of the projects and I can give a timeline based on the info I have.

Gonzo · 17-02-2018 2:43pm

The N3 Clonee to M50 really needs to happen, some terrible congestion there especially around Blanchardstown.

Reuben1210 · 17-02-2018 3:45pm

marno21 wrote: »

No timelines in the plan, but feel free to ask on any of the projects and I can give a timeline based on the info I have.

I'm interested in the M11/N11 provisions here. It is at a complete standstill past Greystones every morning by about 7:30.

It seems they have a plan for where the M11 ends at Bray north to Motorway with three lanes to Kilmacanogue, but in my opinion, the three lanes needs to go past Greystones at least, and the remainder of the non-motorway section from there to Coynes Cross to be upgraded to Motorway to finally have this gap upgraded.

Have you found any more specifics on this? Timeline/funding etc?

Donegal Storm · 17-02-2018 6:28pm

marno21 wrote: »

No timelines in the plan, but feel free to ask on any of the projects and I can give a timeline based on the info I have.

Well from a personal point of view the N2, N4 and N17 are the three I'd use most frequently. Wouldn't be surprised if the N2 was put on the back burner until Brexit is sorted but the emphasis on Sligo in the plan will hopefully mean the N4 is prioritised

Also I see no mention of Tuam - Claremorris which was supposedly back on the table, has this been left out of the plan then?

nuac · 17-02-2018 6:48pm

marno21 wrote: »

Breaking down NW Accessibility:

No PPP reannouncements here.

In terms of what's funded under 2016-2022:

N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin (already fully funded) - to start 2018, approx cost €100m
N5 Westport-Turlough (already fully funded) - to start 2021, approx cost €130-140m
N52 Ardee bypass (already fully funded) - to start 2018, approx cost €20m
N56 Dungloe-Glenties & Mountcharles-Inver (already fully funded) - 2/8 parts complete, 1/8 under construction, 1/8 at tender and 4/8 at planning - expected remaining cost approx €60m.

Total remaining for 2016-2022 schemes: Approx €300m

N2 Slane bypass - should be shovel ready for 2022 barring objections, approx cost €50m
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge - decision due July 2018, could start in 2020, approx cost €140m

The Wildcard here is the A5, which is committed to but remains in an eternal state of limbo and could have border issues along with the lack of a Government in NI. I'll leave it out bar the €50m until 2019 which is already committed

Total cost of accessibility to the North West: approx €550m

As N5 Westport/Turlough is "fully funded", and as CPOs have been approved, why can it not be started before 2021?

Very busy road to an important tourist centre.
Also apart from America, the world's supply of Botox is exported along that road.

lucernarian · 17-02-2018 10:23pm

Gonzo wrote: »

The N3 Clonee to M50 really needs to happen, some terrible congestion there especially around Blanchardstown.

The congestion is often far worse everywhere else *except* the N3. The junctions as designed (and then upgraded) are still not fit for purpose though.

marno21 · 19-02-2018 2:06am

https://www.businesspost.ie/news/road-tolls-likely-government-plans-increase-public-private-partnerships-409369

Article in the SBP today (sorry about the paywall!) about the Government's relaxation on the use of PPPs which mean that more may be used for roads. They namedrop the M20 but that's fully funded in the NDP so I can't see that being one.

However, there are a number of medium to large size projects that were omitted from the NDP which may be viable as PPPs. Viability as a tolled PPP is questionable but the N7, M11, M17/M18, and N25 PPPs would be a thought provoking model:

Some (personal) suggestions of projects not funded in the NDP:

N3 Kells-North of Cavan (2+2)
N15 Sligo-Leitrim border (HQDC/2+2)
N17 Tuam-Claremorris (2+2)
N22 Ballincollig-Ovens (HQDC/motorway)
N24 Limerick-Limerick Junction (HQDC + 2+2)
N25 Midleton-Youghal (HQDC/motorway)
M40 North Ring West (HQDC/motorway)
M71 Cork-Inishannon (HQDC/motorway)

In addition, not all of the big ticket N2, N17, N24 projects will be done from the exchequer in the NDP. Could be viable as PPPs

JupiterKid · 19-02-2018 4:01am

This is a very ambitious plan and one that I am delighted to see laid out. However, the M20 and N24 and N4 schemes should take absolute priority.

I really don’t see the need to upgrade the N52 between Tullamore and Kilbeggan. It is of a very good standard. The sections of N52 that really need improving are from Borrisokane to Birr and Delvin to Ardee.

Reuben1210 · 20-02-2018 1:04am

Reuben1210 wrote: »

I'm interested in the M11/N11 provisions here. It is at a complete standstill past Greystones every morning by about 7:30.

It seems they have a plan for where the M11 ends at Bray north to Motorway with three lanes to Kilmacanogue, but in my opinion, the three lanes needs to go past Greystones at least, and the remainder of the non-motorway section from there to Coynes Cross to be upgraded to Motorway to finally have this gap upgraded.

Have you found any more specifics on this? Timeline/funding etc?

Any info on this @Marno, no?

marno21 · 20-02-2018 1:09am

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Any info on this @Marno, no?

Apologies, forgot to reply.

Based on the M11/N11 Corridor Study published last year, TII have decided to progress a major scheme to upgrade the M11/N11 from the M50 junction to Kilmacanogue and onto Coyne's Cross (J14). This will consist of a third lane to Kilmacanogue, junction upgrades, access closures and other general improvements.

This project has been added as a pipeline scheme and design should begin in 2018/2019. The project as a whole is unfunded but was named in the Capital Plan last Friday so should see some movement this year or next. This won't go to construction this side of 2021 and may possibly be phased.

In the meantime, TII hope to progress a minor scheme consisting of the addition of a parallel access road at the southbound petrol station in Kilmacanogue.

lucernarian · 20-02-2018 1:10am

JupiterKid wrote: »

This is a very ambitious plan and one that I am delighted to see laid out. However, the M20 and N24 and N4 schemes should take absolute priority.

I really don’t see the need to upgrade the N52 between Tullamore and Kilbeggan. It is of a very good standard. The sections of N52 that really need improving are from Borrisokane to Birr and Delvin to Ardee.

Delvin to Ardee is shocking alright. I wonder how much traffic would avoid the M50 and M1 entirely if that road were to a better standard.

marno21 · 20-02-2018 1:14am

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Well from a personal point of view the N2, N4 and N17 are the three I'd use most frequently. Wouldn't be surprised if the N2 was put on the back burner until Brexit is sorted but the emphasis on Sligo in the plan will hopefully mean the N4 is prioritised

Also I see no mention of Tuam - Claremorris which was supposedly back on the table, has this been left out of the plan then?

No sign of Tuam-Claremorris. Firstly the heavy upgrading in recent years has pushed it down the list. Secondly, the local politician preferred to get a waste of time feasibility study into a not happening railway in the plan. Thirdly, the worse parts of the N17 from Knock to Sligo have been included.

The remaining stretch of **** road between Tuam and Ballindine is to be done in 2019/2020.

nuac wrote: »

As N5 Westport/Turlough is "fully funded", and as CPOs have been approved, why can it not be started before 2021?

Very busy road to an important tourist centre.
Also apart from America, the world's supply of Botox is exported along that road.

It's fully funded under the 2016-2022 plan, which had it down for a 2021 start. We haven't heard since if it's being accelerated but I can see it waiting til 2021 due to the lack of upfront funding, a lot of the funding in the plan is after 2021. Funding til 2021 is being used by the N4, N22, Dunkettle and M7 widening projects.

There are a lot of roads like that in Ireland that are totally subpar. Plenty of pharma and chemical companies located on boreens (Astellas in Kerry, Rowex in Bantry, Eli Lilly in Kinsale etc)

Reuben1210 · 20-02-2018 4:36am

marno21 wrote: »

Apologies, forgot to reply.

Based on the M11/N11 Corridor Study published last year, TII have decided to progress a major scheme to upgrade the M11/N11 from the M50 junction to Kilmacanogue and onto Coyne's Cross (J14). This will consist of a third lane to Kilmacanogue, junction upgrades, access closures and other general improvements.

This project has been added as a pipeline scheme and design should begin in 2018/2019. The project as a whole is unfunded but was named in the Capital Plan last Friday so should see some movement this year or next. This won't go to construction this side of 2021 and may possibly be phased.

In the meantime, TII hope to progress a minor scheme consisting of the addition of a parallel access road at the southbound petrol station in Kilmacanogue.

Cheers for that. This one directly affects me regularly and is way over capacity, and completely choked up every day!

Masala · 20-02-2018 9:35am

Any link to the plan???

AugustusMinimus · 20-02-2018 9:44am

Masala wrote: »

Any link to the plan???

http://www.gov.ie/en/project-ireland-2040/

roadmaster · 20-02-2018 11:09am

lucernarian wrote: »

Delvin to Ardee is shocking alright. I wonder how much traffic would avoid the M50 and M1 entirely if that road were to a better standard.

Going by the amount of trucks i meet on that road i dont think a huge amount gp via M1/50

Redsoxfan · 20-02-2018 12:12pm

Marno - what's your best estimate for completion of full motorway/dual carriageway from M50 - > Sligo? ie the existing M/N4?

loyatemu · 20-02-2018 1:04pm

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Cheers for that. This one directly affects me regularly and is way over capacity, and completely choked up every day!

It's hard to see them building their way out of trouble on the N11. Closing the various minor junctions and redesignating to motorway is a good idea (should have been done long ago) but won't add any capacity.

Better public transport and P&R is needed out of Wicklow, but there's nothing serious about that in the plan - there's a mention of increasing P&R space at Greystones but there's limited scope for increasing the DART frequency due to the single line. Meanwhile buses on the N11 are sitting in heavy traffic every morning with no priority measures.

Reuben1210 · 20-02-2018 5:45pm

loyatemu wrote: »

It's hard to see them building their way out of trouble on the N11. Closing the various minor junctions and redesignating to motorway is a good idea (should have been done long ago) but won't add any capacity.

Better public transport and P&R is needed out of Wicklow, but there's nothing serious about that in the plan - there's a mention of increasing P&R space at Greystones but there's limited scope for increasing the DART frequency due to the single line. Meanwhile buses on the N11 are sitting in heavy traffic every morning with no priority measures.

I agree...another option would be for a new section to be built from Bray north, and reconnecting south of glen of the downs, as in Spacetweeks idea on his site here:

http://www.irishmotorwayinfo.com/inex/roads/futures/m11.html

loyatemu · 20-02-2018 6:03pm

Reuben1210 wrote: »

I agree...another option would be for a new section to be built from Bray north, and reconnecting south of glen of the downs, as in Spacetweeks idea on his site here:

http://www.irishmotorwayinfo.com/inex/roads/futures/m11.html

That doesn't seem realistic, he's basically talking about going around the back of Glen of the Downs - it's very steep, and the Sugarloaf is in the way. There's a reason the N11 goes through GotD, it's the only low level route available.

marno21 · 20-02-2018 6:13pm

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Marno - what's your best estimate for completion of full motorway/dual carriageway from M50 - > Sligo? ie the existing M/N4?

Even with the schemes in the Capital Plan, there will still be single carriageway between Castlebaldwin and north of Carrick on Shannon, and potentially between Rooskey and Longford.

Collooney-Castlebaldwin will be open by 2021.
Mullingar-Longford & Carrick-Dromod will be prioritised according to requirements - they won't be starting until 2022 at the absolute earliest - meaning 2025-2029 openings.

Charles Babbage · 20-02-2018 6:16pm

loyatemu wrote: »

It's hard to see them building their way out of trouble on the N11. Closing the various minor junctions and redesignating to motorway is a good idea (should have been done long ago) but won't add any capacity.

Better public transport and P&R is needed out of Wicklow, but there's nothing serious about that in the plan - there's a mention of increasing P&R space at Greystones but there's limited scope for increasing the DART frequency due to the single line. Meanwhile buses on the N11 are sitting in heavy traffic every morning with no priority measures.

An express ferry from Wicklow town to the Point Depot perhaps?

Redsoxfan · 20-02-2018 11:03pm

marno21 wrote:

Even with the schemes in the Capital Plan, there will still be single carriageway between Castlebaldwin and north of Carrick on Shannon, and potentially between Rooskey and Longford.

Aye, there is what, over 20km from Longford to Rooskey, all the references to 'Longford' in the meeja are making me nervous.

marno21 · 20-02-2018 11:08pm

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Aye, there is what, over 20km from Longford to Rooskey, all the references to 'Longford' in the meeja are making me nervous.

The scheme was previously known as N4 Mullingar to Longford (Rooskey). I'd imagine they will do the last 10km to Roosky for the sake of it.

Mullingar-Longford is likely a shoe in to tie in with the N4 development near Sligo and the N5 schemes, which will increase traffic.

roadmaster · 21-02-2018 11:37am

I think TII are following are discussions here

. On my way to Cavan this morning i seen a major traffic management operation on the N3 Type 2 Section outside kells. There is resurfacing patch work going on where the road has gone to bits on both carriageways

Nidgeweasel · 21-02-2018 11:52am

roadmaster wrote: »

I think TII are following are discussions here . On my way to Cavan this morning i seen a major traffic management operation on the N3 Type 2 Section outside kells. There is resurfacing patch work going on where the road has gone to bits on both carriageways

What is likely to happen that stretch of road from near the entrance to the M3 as far as Cavan? I.e Kells - Virginia - Cavan.

I found it adds a good bit onto the journey going to / from Donegal and Dublin. Belturbet - Cavan and kells - Dublin are fine.

roadmaster · 21-02-2018 12:23pm

In Marno's updates there is mention of a Virginia Bypass, whether that's a simple road just around the town or a road from the end of the Type two at whitegate to north of virginia i am not too sure

marno21 · 21-02-2018 3:22pm

TII are planning a Virginia bypass, it's highly unlikely the big ticket N3 scheme will be done so it'll either be the part of this scheme either side of Virginia or else just a standard Virginia bypass.

Chris_5339762 · 21-02-2018 4:29pm

Hows about a bit of decent thinking with a new tunnel through Bray Head to dual track to Greystones? It would cost money but its a commuter route so would be successful.

loyatemu · 21-02-2018 5:48pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Hows about a bit of decent thinking with a new tunnel through Bray Head to dual track to Greystones? It would cost money but its a commuter route so would be successful.

it's over 4km (as the crow flies) from the current tunnel entrance on the Greystones side, to where the line comes back inland in Bray - what would that cost!?

Chris_5339762 · 21-02-2018 6:05pm

A lot. But if the country were to get serious about public transport thats the kind of decision we'd have to make. The fact that the commuter and intercity line to the south east of a city with 1 million people in it is in a single track tunnel for 4km is a bit ridiculous. Its a very obvious bottleneck.

spacetweek · 21-02-2018 11:50pm

marno21 wrote: »

TII are planning a Virginia bypass, it's highly unlikely the big ticket N3 scheme will be done so it'll either be the part of this scheme either side of Virginia or else just a standard Virginia bypass.

All indications are that it will be a fairly small scale scheme.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

A lot. But if the country were to get serious about public transport thats the kind of decision we'd have to make. The fact that the commuter and intercity line to the south east of a city with 1 million people in it is in a single track tunnel for 4km is a bit ridiculous. Its a very obvious bottleneck.

Agreed - money shouldn't be so much of an issue, it's surprising it wasn't even mentioned in the new plan.

marno21 · 22-02-2018 3:20am

spacetweek wrote: »

All indications are that it will be a fairly small scale scheme.

Certainly so, it'll just be a few km of a scheme. What I was saying is it's unclear yet whether it'll be

A. The stretch of the planned N3 Kells-Cavan scheme around Virginia, just the section around Virginia now

or

B. A short Virginia bypass with no future upgrade as part of a larger scheme in mind.

The rest of the Cavan-Kells dualling certainly won't happen with this plan.

blanch152 · 22-02-2018 1:23pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

A lot. But if the country were to get serious about public transport thats the kind of decision we'd have to make. The fact that the commuter and intercity line to the south east of a city with 1 million people in it is in a single track tunnel for 4km is a bit ridiculous. Its a very obvious bottleneck.

Compared to the benefit from DART Underground, it is small fish.

A new tunnel from Bray to Greystones wouldn't feature on any top-40 public transport initiatives. RE-routing around Bray Head would have a better chance, but not much.

spacetweek · 23-02-2018 12:23am

You'd probably be better double tracking further south and using signalling cleverly on the Bray Head section.

Middle Man · 23-02-2018 12:51am

spacetweek wrote: »

You'd probably be better double tracking further south and using signalling cleverly on the Bray Head section.

Or a passing loop halfway - perhaps with today's building technology, that might be achieved using some of the very original alignment around Bray Head (abandoned tunnels with missing bridge sections).

lucernarian · 23-02-2018 2:06am

Middle Man wrote: »

Or a passing loop halfway - perhaps with today's building technology, that might be achieved using some of the very original alignment around Bray Head (abandoned tunnels with missing bridge sections).

Doing that would require the clever signalling in the first place, but either way it's a win-win. I thought the Bray to Bray head section could handle 2 tracks as it was originally built in the 19th century as double track.

loyatemu · 23-02-2018 11:23am

lucernarian wrote: »

Doing that would require the clever signalling in the first place, but either way it's a win-win. I thought the Bray to Bray head section could handle 2 tracks as it was originally built in the 19th century as double track.

nope - it was always single track. It's been moved inland several times but that's because the outer bits had collapsed. I really don't think there's space for a passing loop but it could probably be double-tracked on the Greystones side of the main tunnel which might allow a slightly better frequency.

Currently it's signalled as 2 sections, so one train can follow another in the same direction - the easiest/cheapest way to increase capacity would be to stable a train in Greystones overnight so that an extra peak service could run inbound in the morning.

marno21 · 26-02-2018 1:57pm

Post on another forum by a former stalwart of here about a possible reconfiguration of the TEN-T core network in Ireland post-Brexit.

The current network includes Dublin-Belfast/Cork/Limerick with further connections to the ports at Ringaskiddy and Foynes, both of which are getting motorways in the next few years.

The reconfiguration of this core network would involved the removal of the Belfast requirement and the inclusion of Rosslare instead. The network would also be rerouted via the M7 + M20 instead of the M8 connecting Ringaskiddy and Foynes ports. There is also talk of routing the Cork element of the network around the proposed western North Ring Road quadrant and to the M28 via the M40 South Ring. The inclusion of Rosslare would also make there be a requirement to build the "N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare harbour" scheme as full motorway, and also a requirement to solve the issues between the M50 and Ashford that reduce level of service along the route.

nuac · 26-02-2018 2:42pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

As the Dockland developments proceed in Cork and other projects such as the UCC / CIT Science Park, Eilton Dhopping Centre Redevelopment, City Gate 3 and the much vaunted Beamish Site go ahead, then a BRT line between Mahon and Ballincollig will be feasible. It should be built with future conversion to light rail in mind.

City Centre - St Finbarrs Hospital - Douglas - Airport would be another future possible line.

Re Docklands Development in Cork - Recent report in Irish Times that BAM, the lowest bidder have not started work. They say they made a mistake of 12 million euro in their calculations. They want the 12 mln euro restored in the contract price otherwise not proceeding. Heading for High COurt
in July. Not good news for this project.

roadmaster · 26-02-2018 3:01pm

nuac wrote: »

Re Docklands Development in Cork - Recent report in Irish Times that BAM, the lowest bidder have not started work. They say they made a mistake of 12 million euro in their calculations. They want the 12 mln euro restored in the contract price otherwise not proceeding. Heading for High COurt
in July. Not good news for this project.

Had the contract being signed and executed by all parties or was BAM just preferred bidder ?

markodaly · 04-03-2018 2:13pm

What the bad weather the past few days has shown is how important the national motorway system is in terms of connecting the country. These weather events are likely to be more common, so we should be prepared with decent infrastructure that can weather any upcoming storms that keeps people and goods moving.

nuac · 04-03-2018 3:58pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Had the contract being signed and executed by all parties or was BAM just preferred bidder ?

I think the existence of a contract is disputed. Will be an interesting casee.

marno21 · 10-03-2018 9:35pm

AugustusMinimus · 10-03-2018 11:06pm

Is there any route selected for the Carrigaline distributor road?

spacetweek · 10-03-2018 11:27pm

marno21 wrote: »

Generalised timetable for implementation of RLR projects in the NDP:

Project|Latest completion date
Grange Castle: Adamstown/Nangor Road improvements|2021
Portlaoise Southern Distributor Road|2021
Shannon Crossing at Killaloe|2021
Laytown-Bettystown Link Road|2021
Sligo Garavogue bridge|2021
Dingle Relief Road Phase IV|2021
Sligo Western Distributor Road|2021
Coonagh-Knockalisheen|2021
R498 Latteragh (Thurles-Nenagh)|2021
Carrigaline Western Distributor Road|2021
Killaloe Bypass + R494 upgrade|2022
Athy Southern Distributor Road|2022

The fact nearly all of them are the same makes those dates seem dodgy.
Grange Castle is under construction and should be done by spring 2019. Bettystown will start this time next year I believe and should be done in under a year, so end 2019 to finish.
Phase 1 of Coonagh-KL is under construction and expected done by end 2018.

marno21 · 11-03-2018 2:57am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Is there any route selected for the Carrigaline distributor road?

The land has been acquired and Cork County Council's 2017-2021 priority is "construction" so it must be. Can't find a map though.

spacetweek wrote: »

The fact nearly all of them are the same makes those dates seem dodgy.
Grange Castle is under construction and should be done by spring 2019. Bettystown will start this time next year I believe and should be done in under a year, so end 2019 to finish.
Phase 1 of Coonagh-KL is under construction and expected done by end 2018.

That's the latest completion date, as per the table title. The date I have down for Coonagh-Knocklisheen is the Main Contract, not the stub under construction at the minute. The Main Contract was awaiting funding but was allocated the funding in the Review of the Capital Plan 2016-2022 and carried forward to the NDP.

The implementation of the above projects is a matter for the relevant local authorities in conjunction with DTTaS so details can be sketchy.

markodaly · 11-03-2018 4:17pm

What are the major schemes that are due to start construction this year and next?

The only one I know of is the Dunkettle Interchange.

2018-2027 National Development Plan

Comments