M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

Thud · 02-01-2019 2:23pm

They stuck the finger barriers up fairly quickly where the M50 merges with the M11 last month hopefully they can get the Kilmac ones up reasonably quickly too.
You can be sure some idiot will try driving through them though.

marno21 · 08-02-2019 4:48pm

https://www.thejournal.ie/n11-traffic-delays-4480602-Feb2019/

Stephen Donnelly has the drone out to showcase the N11 mess at peak times.

Good to see some politician actively behind a road upgrade. Quite a lot of political interventions with these schemes recently has been to try to obstruct them.

Thud · 08-02-2019 4:57pm

Thud wrote: »

They stuck the finger barriers up fairly quickly where the M50 merges with the M11 last month hopefully they can get the Kilmac ones up reasonably quickly too.
You can be sure some idiot will try driving through them though.

Still no sign of these at Kilmac.

I did see some guy drive up the hard shoulder and cut across the gravelly bit onto the M11 just before the finger barriers where the M50/M11 join the other day....not an unmarked Garda car unless they drive a convertible WX reg Audi A4

prunudo · 08-02-2019 5:26pm

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/n11-traffic-delays-4480602-Feb2019/

Stephen Donnelly has the drone out to showcase the N11 mess at peak times.

Good to see some politician actively behind a road upgrade. Quite a lot of political interventions with these schemes recently has been to try to obstruct them.

In fairness to local councillor for Greystones, Derek Mitchell (fg) is fairly active on the needs for the commuters of north Wicklow too.

marno21 · 08-02-2019 6:01pm

jvan wrote: »

In fairness to local councillor for Greystones, Derek Mitchell (fg) is fairly active on the needs for the commuters of north Wicklow too.

Wasn't targetting anyone in particular, but there seems to be little in the way of political support behind most road projects bar a few notable examples. If these projects were being repeatedly brought up it may push them closer to being politically relevant. The N11/M11 scheme is also in Shane Ross' backyard so it should be somewhat in his mind.

prunudo · 08-02-2019 6:12pm

Didn't take that you were targeting anyone from your post at all and also to say I've no affliction to either party, was just sharing that on a local level and maybe beyond the reach of national media there are councillors trying to push the issue.

Macy0161 · 08-02-2019 8:36pm

I've only seen/ read of Whitmore pushing public transport/ bus lanes*. Extra lanes is just short term fix - like the N11 aux lane, the M50 widening etc. Politicians never seem to lead on this - short term populism of new roads rather than long term solutions.

*I've seen others pushing trains and dart improvements, but specifically on the N11 upgrade I haven't seen anyone else, but open to correction,

spacetweek · 08-02-2019 9:52pm

marno21 wrote: »

Bray-Coyne's Cross upgrade and Oilgate-Rosslare are both starting planning in 2019

I'm awaiting Bray-Coyne's with excitement. It'll be very interesting to see how they deal with the many constraining factors - trees, petrol stations, twisty alignment, poor side road layouts.

prunudo · 09-02-2019 9:29am

True, Whitmore has been quite vocal too. There may be others aswell but haven't seen them myself although with the modern world of targeted ads/posts by social media I'm sceptical of seeing one persons posts more than another. But thats going way off topic.

Chris_5339762 · 09-02-2019 4:32pm

The only problem about going three lanes from the M11/50 junction down to Coynes Cross (or wherever a three lane bit ends with the GOTD issues), is that the 2 lane section of M50 going northbound in the mornings will cause a severe bottleneck.

prunudo · 09-02-2019 6:21pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The only problem about going three lanes from the M11/50 junction down to Coynes Cross (or wherever a three lane bit ends with the GOTD issues), is that the 2 lane section of M50 going northbound in the mornings will cause a severe bottleneck.

I can't understand how part of the planning conditions for Cherrywood didn't include triple laning Sandyford to N11 of the M50

marno21 · 09-02-2019 8:47pm

A timeline for this scheme has now been made available by Arup:

July 2019: publication of feasible options
Q2 2020: selection of preferred option + public display
Q4 2020: submission to An Bord Pleanala

This is a better timeline than I was expecting to be honest. Good to see.

HabibiLibnen · 10-02-2019 2:03am

How will adding a third lane solve the long term issue of too many cars going to the same place at the same time? All because we think it's normal to plan low density sprawl haphazardly and moan when it doesn't work out. That it's normal for everything and everyone to be in Dublin rather than building self-sustaining communities.

All these cars will be dumped on the M50 car park regardless of whether it remains 2 lanes or 3. Will we ever start looking at how proper planning is done in Europe and beyond instead of continuously imitating the failed Anglo-American model.

I read some of the comments on the journal and I'm sorry, but I've no pity for people who decided to live in Dundalk and commute to Leopardstown, or living in Rathdrum and working in Glasnevin. I can obviously see how 80% of us are priced out of Dublin but be logical and live as close as possible to work or at least on the same route.

We have horrendously bad urban and transport planning in Ireland and sadly it appears we've learnt nothing from the recession. But our choices as to where we live, how we live and our primacy of the self over the communal greater good leads to the serious quality of life issues we now have in transport and housing. Unless we radically overhaul planning, both urban and rural, and public transport, we're just continuing the madness depicted in the drone footage.

Kermit.de.frog · 10-02-2019 2:29am

Forget the Anglo - the American model is what we need and what we should aim for.

Wider motorways will deal with the problem. You add 2 extra lanes each way here - you double capacity. Proper junctions will further help. Problem solved for 30+ years.

We need a no-nonsense approach to road building - proper number of lanes, bigger junctions, actual flyovers and better signage.

Aontachtoir · 10-02-2019 7:28am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Forget the Anglo - the American model is what we need and what we should aim for. Wider motorways will deal with the problem. You add 2 extra lanes each way here - you double capacity. Proper junctions will further help.

Reminds me of that bit from Futurama where they try to stop global warming by dropping an ever-larger ice cube into the ocean every year.

listermint · 10-02-2019 7:58am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Forget the Anglo - the American model is what we need and what we should aim for.

Wider motorways will deal with the problem. You add 2 extra lanes each way here - you double capacity. Proper junctions will further help. Problem solved for 30+ years.

We need a no-nonsense approach to road building - proper number of lanes, bigger junctions, actual flyovers and better signage.

That's a genius waste of money considering driverless cars are an actual thing right now.

Take the hundreds of millions thatd you'd waste on those roads and put it into a subsidised bus system with free parking outside major regional towns . Regularly and often bus services . Full or not at a sensible price will encourage people out of their cars . The same as an easily timed luas has and does.

People just need options and it has to be visible and easy. It's not rocket science it's apathy to spending money. It's gas how we flitter away cash on tarmac with abandon as if it's a saviour

Macy0161 · 10-02-2019 9:24am

HabibiLibnen wrote:

How will adding a third lane solve the long term issue of too many cars going to the same place at the same time? All because we think it's normal to plan low density sprawl haphazardly and moan when it doesn't work out. That it's normal for everything and everyone to be in Dublin rather than building self-sustaining communities.

I actually think.its perfectly reasonable for a capital city to be the economic centre. The issue isn't distance, it's the rubbish public transport. Wicklow Town, Arklow etc shouldn't be long commute times.

There's a complete lack of political will to focus on busses as a major part of the solution. Partly driven by car commuters who use the excuse of rail as the only option as a way of kicking the can down the road and justifying them not shifting modes.

prunudo · 10-02-2019 9:39am

We are also forgetting the huge elephant in the room when talking about long commute times. It suits the government not to invest in public transport when people are 'happy' to sit in their cars for long periods of time. They must rub their hands in glee with the amount of tax revenue car owners/users generate.

Thud · 10-02-2019 10:25am

Is there anywhere in the world where this long distance bus commute system you are calling for works?
Rail/underground/trams systems work because they are not constained by traffic, a bus system will always be unreliable due to traffic even at shorter distances (inside city boundaries). A bus system is just a different type of sticking plaster similar to extra lanes. An off road solution is what is needed be it extending the luas, faster darts or something else.

Chris_5339762 · 10-02-2019 11:00am

I've said it before... an absolutely huge and expensive upgrade of the rail lines going south must be considered. A 3rd lane is needed too and a rework of the N11 corridor. Sadly neither may happen and its just unsustainable at the moment.

prunudo · 10-02-2019 11:06am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I've said it before... an absolutely huge and expensive upgrade of the rail lines going south must be considered. A 3rd lane is needed too and a rework of the N11 corridor. Sadly neither may happen and its just unsustainable at the moment.

100% agree, and with the planned developments all along the route its only going to get worse. The whole model of planning in Wicklow needs to be looked at because without huge multi billion investment in transport the n11 will grind to a halt, not just effecting commuters but also the transport of goods.

Ps. This applies to all routes to the capital but with the topography of North Wicklow makes any solution difficult without expensive engineering. Essentially the Glen of the Downs is the only level north-south corridor linking Dublin to the southeast. Everything else involves going over hilly terrain.

HabibiLibnen · 10-02-2019 11:51am

Macy0161 wrote: »

I actually think.its perfectly reasonable for a capital city to be the economic centre.

Why so? Ottawa, Washington, Canberra, Brasilia, Berlin, Bern, Edinburgh (if Scotland was independent) dare I say Jerusalem... are capital cities but not the economic power houses of their respective countries. I'm not saying we should move the capital to Cork or Athlone but there has to be a rebalancing of economic activity towards other cities as nobody benefits from over-centralisation.

Wicklow, Meath and Kildare councils need to stop building sprawling housing estates for people who work in Dublin and start planning for building an economy of their own.

Macy0161 · 10-02-2019 1:11pm

Thud wrote:

Is there anywhere in the world where this long distance bus commute system you are calling for works?

It's actually working despite the constraints on the n11. Wexford bus, their Wicklow bus, bus eireann are at capacity at peak times. This is without bus lanes or bus priority.

Rail maybe the long term solution, bus is a short term option. You could change hard shoulder to bus lane in a couple of weeks.

D.L.R. · 10-02-2019 2:02pm

HabibiLibnen wrote: »

Why so? Ottawa, Washington, Canberra, Brasilia, Berlin, Bern, Edinburgh (if Scotland was independent) dare I say Jerusalem... are capital cities but not the economic power houses of their respective countries. I'm not saying we should move the capital to Cork or Athlone but there has to be a rebalancing of economic activity towards other cities as nobody benefits from over-centralisation.

Wicklow, Meath and Kildare councils need to stop building sprawling housing estates for people who work in Dublin and start planning for building an economy of their own.

None of the above cities were ever their country's economic hub. Dublin has been Ireland's for centuries.

Not developing Dublin accordingly is insanely stupid.

marno21 · 10-02-2019 3:50pm

MOD:

Off topic posts deleted. Debate the topic not the poster. Further off topic posts will also be deleted.

This thread is for discussion of the proposed solutions to the issues affecting the M11/N11 betwen J4 and J14. Potential topics for discussion are available here, as this is the scope of the scheme: https://n11m11.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Public-Consultation-Boards_for-print.pdf

Bigus · 10-02-2019 7:04pm

Bigus · 10-02-2019 7:06pm

A double deck as above from coynes cross to M50 would be quick and wildlife friendly.

Alun · 10-02-2019 7:08pm

spacetweek wrote: »

I'm awaiting Bray-Coyne's with excitement. It'll be very interesting to see how they deal with the many constraining factors - trees, petrol stations, twisty alignment, poor side road layouts.

Yes, it's not going to be trivial from an engineering point of view by any means, not to mention many of the existing access points which will have to be closed off.

josip · 10-02-2019 11:27pm

Kilmacanogue is trivial by comparison with what the Italians managed on the A22 up to the Brenner pass.
There wasn't enough room in the gorge to fit a motorway beside the existing road so they stuck it on stilts.

https://goo.gl/maps/jGrAczhV3xk

Over 80km of it

https://goo.gl/maps/86WPcViytzs

Reuben1210 · 11-02-2019 1:06am

josip wrote: »

Kilmacanogue is trivial by comparison with what the Italians managed on the A22 up to the Brenner pass.
There wasn't enough room in the gorge to fit a motorway beside the existing road so they stuck it on stilts.

https://goo.gl/maps/jGrAczhV3xk

Over 80km of it

https://goo.gl/maps/86WPcViytzs

Can you imagine the NIMBYpocalypse that would be unleashed if something like that was proposed??

kneemos · 11-02-2019 2:39am

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Can you imagine the NIMBYpocalypse that would be unleashed if something like that was proposed??

They'd be right.

Chris_5339762 · 11-02-2019 9:34pm

Ironically its probably the least destructive way of getting a motorway up a valley, as greenery can grow back underneath the motorway. But yeah, that'll never happen here, and likely not again in Europe on that scale. I do want to drive it though.

Thud · 26-03-2019 2:23pm

Thud wrote: »

I did see some guy drive up the hard shoulder and cut across the gravelly bit onto the M11 just before the finger barriers where the M50/M11 join the other day....not an unmarked Garda car unless they drive a convertible WX reg Audi A4

I saw this bandit do the exact same thing yesterday, flew up the hard shoulder...I didn't get the reg...will next time.

prunudo · 25-04-2019 4:50pm

Letters have been received stating that Arup will be carrying out surveying work along the route from mid April. They seem to be a generic letter basically just informing landowners there could be people on their property doing surveying work in relation to the upgrade works.

Alun · 25-04-2019 8:26pm

jvan wrote: »

Letters have been received stating that Arup will be carrying out surveying work along the route from mid April. They seem to be a generic letter basically just informing landowners there could be people on their property doing surveying work in relation to the upgrade works.

I got one of these today which had me a bit worried especially as I live quite some distance away (350m) from the N11. If anyone is doing surveying works in my back garden they're probably lost!!

They did say though that they'd also be doing work regarding nature surveys, including bats (which we do see occasionally) and also measuring noise and pollution levels etc. so maybe that's why I received it?

prunudo · 27-04-2019 12:10am

Tenders for the remedial work at the Kilmacanogue southbound garage to be published in the next few days. Article also mentions that letters have been sent to over 3000 landowners regarding the surveying of jn4-14.
http://wicklownews.net/2019/04/after-a-number-of-delays-tender-documents-for-the-kilmacanogue-road-safety-scheme-to-be-published/

marno21 · 24-05-2019 1:30am

Constraints study now underway

N11/M11 wrote:

N11/M11 Junction 4 to Junction 14 Improvement Scheme – Constraints Study

Wicklow County Council, in conjunction with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, is progressing the development of the N11/M11 Junction 4 to Junction 14 Improvement Scheme. As part of the project, it is necessary to carry out a comprehensive constraints study on the area from Ashford, Co Wicklow up to Leopardstown within the County of Dublin. The constraints study will comprise both desktop and field surveys and will cover both publicly and privately owned lands within the study area.

Why are surveys required?

A comprehensive constraints study is required for the project. The constraints study will address all constraints including human, archaeology and cultural heritage, agronomy, landscape and visual, hydrology, hydrogeology, biodiversity, geology, material assets, planning policy, noise, air and climate. These constraints will be documented and mapped and will be used by the project team to inform the development of feasible transportation options.

Who will carry out the surveys?

Only Arup’s authorised persons from appointed consultancy companies, or sub-consultants working on their behalf, will carry out surveys commencing. Each authorised person will have valid ID and authorising papers.

What type of surveys will take place?

The surveys are non-intrusive and superficial in nature.

When will surveys take place?

Surveys have commenced in May 2019 and will be on-going for a number of months. Surveys will typically take place during the day, but bat surveys are undertaken late at night to facilitate monitoring and tracking of their movements.

If I have any queries who can I contact?

Should you have any queries or comments on the nature of the surveys being undertaken, please do not hesitate to contact us using the details provided on the ‘Contact Us’ page.

https://n11m11.ie/2019/05/21/constraints-study/

marno21 · 24-05-2019 6:21pm

jvan wrote: »

Tenders for the remedial work at the Kilmacanogue southbound garage to be published in the next few days. Article also mentions that letters have been sent to over 3000 landowners regarding the surveying of jn4-14.
http://wicklownews.net/2019/04/after-a-number-of-delays-tender-documents-for-the-kilmacanogue-road-safety-scheme-to-be-published/

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=147571&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Tender out. It's a bigger job than I thought, 1.7km.

spacetweek · 24-05-2019 9:44pm

marno21 wrote: »

Tender out. It's a bigger job than I thought, 1.7km.

It says the lane is from Jct 7 (Bray South) to Jct 8 (Kilmac). The distance between them acc to Gmaps is 1.7km so the new service road must be the whole way between the two junctions. This is great news and more than we would have expected.

marno21 · 24-05-2019 9:52pm

spacetweek wrote: »

It says the lane is from Jct 7 (Bray South) to Jct 8 (Kilmac). The distance between them acc to Gmaps is 1.7km so the new service road must be the whole way between the two junctions. This is great news and more than we would have expected.

Indeed. A starter before the main course in a few years time.

prunudo · 17-06-2019 7:47am

I noticed over the last few weeks a lot of traffic counters both on the main line and also on various slip roads, usually in one location for a few days and then moved on to somewhere else.
Great to see the back ground work being done but you'd have to wonder about the logic of doing traffic surveys just as the volume decreases for the summer months. There's been a noticeable difference in the more morning commute times since the secondary schools and colleges finished up.

prunudo · 02-07-2019 7:12pm

Received a letter from Arup the other day, addressed personally but I'd imagine a generic letter. Basically just acknowledging the feedback I had sent in and for attending the consultation meeting in the Glenview last December.
Also mentions that the constraints study is continuing and there will be another public consultation later in the year to display the results of the study.

sideswipe · 22-07-2019 12:15pm

Anybody know how plans are coming along with this? You can drive on motorway across the country from every interchange on the M50 now except the M11/N11. A couple of miles from the Dublin/wicklow border and you have to pass through a village at 60kph. Lots of talk about finishing out the route from Belfast to Rosslare with no mention of Kilmac issue. Seems like there has been continuous studies but no real action. Meanwhile housebuilding has ramped up massively south of kilmac and traffic can travel on great roads from south Wexford only to end up in a car park from the Glen of the Downs, really hoping to see some movement on this section soon!!

prunudo · 22-07-2019 12:34pm

Have to say, traffic is fantastic at the moment. Any people new to the area who have moved into their new homes over the summer months will get a shock come early September.
Latest I heard is that there'll be another public consultation later in the year once the constraints study has been completed.

marno21 · 22-07-2019 12:44pm

prunudo wrote: »

Have to say, traffic is fantastic at the moment. Any people new to the area who have moved into their new homes over the summer months will get a shock come early September.
Latest I heard is that there'll be another public consultation later in the year once the constraints study has been completed.

This was planned for July. Hopefully sooner rather than later

prunudo · 22-07-2019 12:56pm

marno21 wrote: »

This was planned for July. Hopefully sooner rather than later

Hope so, maybe they'll take a leaf out of the N5 project.

spacetweek · 23-07-2019 8:38pm

This is quickly becoming one of the most urgent road schemes in the country.

marno21 · 14-09-2019 12:36am

Tenders being assessed for the N11 Kilmacanogue Parallel Service Road (Phase 1 of the overall major scheme)

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/braypeople/news/tenders-for-works-on-n11-at-kilmacanogue-being-assessed-38485931.html

dervebehe · 14-09-2019 12:38am

Shouldn't the M11 actually start at Junction 14 on the M50? That was the original intention and IMO would make more sense, they just need to put a proper interchange there.

Chris_5339762 · 14-09-2019 12:01pm

I'd imagine that would be how it ends up if the M50 Eastern Bypass is ever built.

M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

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