M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

prunudo

Public consultation meeting in the Glenview hotel next Tuesday 11th December 12-8pm for public to discuss the proposed plans with engineers.

Full website will go live on same date.
https://m11n11.ie/

marno21

jvan wrote: »

Public consultation meeting in the Glenview hotel next Tuesday 11th December 12-8pm for public to discuss the proposed plans with engineers.

Full website will go live on same date.
https://m11n11.ie/

Thank you for the update. Great to see the ball rolling here.

prunudo

I'll head along and post up what it was all about. The fact Arup are only there since November I'm not really sure what to expect.

ted1

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Sorry but the real cause of the problems is a substandard road.

PT is a nonsense argument. Only after roads are properly built should there be PT options discussed.

There’s no logic in that. Proper PT may require no road at all. Rail could be built. A lane could be scarified, make traffic worse and force people into busses.

Cycle lanes built instead of roads. There’s plenty of alternatives

BeepBeep67

jvan wrote: »

There's nowhere near enough room for 3 lanes each way. As it is the hard shoulders are narrower than normal.

I would think that 3 lanes heading North would be more of a priority if possible with minimal disruption.

Shuttle train from Wicklow Town to Greystones to match the Dart or secure land opposite Shoreline as a large park and ride.

prunudo

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I would think that 3 lanes heading North would be more of a priority if possible with minimal disruption.

Shuttle train from Wicklow Town to Greystones to match the Dart or secure land opposite Shoreline as a large park and ride.

I used to think along those lines, more roads, more lanes, the better.
As much as I hate saying it, if they can find room for an extra lane I now believe it should be for a bus lane and even a segerated cycle route too. There is no point having buses stuck in the traffic along with all the other commuters.
If they are serious about people ditching the private car then this has to be done.
I would also like this buslane to be 24hr, not a de facto 3rd lane in off peak times. It should also have a 60kph speed limit so you don't have Wexford bus doing 100kph past stationary traffic.

The n11 route is being choked by traffic, with more and more housing coming on stream each year. Unfortunately there doesnt seem to be any interest in updating the trainline so this leaves buses as the only other commuting option.

incentsitive

What's being done?

prunudo

incentsitive wrote: »

What's being done?

Not sure yet, improvements of n11 between j4 to j14.
Most likely will include 3 lane to j7 and then closing non numbered junctions and entrances beyond that, possibly upgrading to motorway.

There's a meeting in the Glenview hotel next Tuesday to give the public the chance to discuss it with the engineers.

Macy0161

jvan wrote: »

I used to think along those lines, more roads, more lanes, the better.
As much as I hate saying it, if they can find room for an extra lane I now believe it should be for a bus lane and even a segerated cycle route too. There is no point having buses stuck in the traffic along with all the other commuters.
If they are serious about people ditching the private car then this has to be done.
I would also like this buslane to be 24hr, not a de facto 3rd lane in off peak times. It should also have a 60kph speed limit so you don't have Wexford bus doing 100kph past stationary traffic.

The n11 route is being choked by traffic, with more and more housing coming on stream each year. Unfortunately there doesnt seem to be any interest in updating the trainline so this leaves buses as the only other commuting option.

They should do this now, changing the hard shoulders. Needs a massive increase in bus capacity, and Park and Rides. But both could be done relatively quick and in the scheme of things cheaply.

Capacity issues on the BE services, and the success of Wexford Bus (enough to expand with the Wicklow Bus) shows there is already demand there.

incentsitive

1 lane should be a bus lane on every motorway close to the cities, especially where they have 3 lanes.
I would also think 1 lane should be high-occupancy. Cars with 4 people, but that's very difficult to police and no way would it work in Ireland given the bus lanes are always already full with cars!

Marcusm

incentsitive wrote: »

1 lane should be a bus lane on every motorway close to the cities, especially where they have 3 lanes.
I would also think 1 lane should be high-occupancy. Cars with 4 people, but that's very difficult to police and no way would it work in Ireland given the bus lanes are always already full with cars!

Be careful what you wish for - google the M4 bus lane near London and you’ll see how they can cause more problems.

Kermit.de.frog

incentsitive wrote: »

1 lane should be a bus lane on every motorway close to the cities, especially where they have 3 lanes.
I would also think 1 lane should be high-occupancy. Cars with 4 people, but that's very difficult to police and no way would it work in Ireland given the bus lanes are always already full with cars!

So where you need most motorway lanes you want to remove 1 motorway lane and replace that lane with a bus lane?

Or you want to add a bus lane to existing lanes?

I can imagine people being very angry at the notion of the first proposal.

Anyone remember driver reaction to the bus lane on the N32? And totally right.

Motorways should not have bus lanes, only hard shoulders.

ted1

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So where you need most motorway lanes you want to remove 1 motorway lane and replace that lane with a bus lane?

Or you want to add a bus lane to existing lanes?

I can imagine people being very angry at the notion of the first proposal.

Anyone remember driver reaction to the bus lane on the N32? And totally right.

Motorways should not have bus lanes, only hard shoulders.

The days of the private motor car are numbered. They are an inefficient use of land and resources.

prunudo

Marcusm wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for - google the M4 bus lane near London and you’ll see how they can cause more problems.

I often heard it being used as an example against bus lanes on motorways. What was/is the problem with it.

Macy0161

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Anyone remember driver reaction to the bus lane on the N32? And totally right.

Motorways should not have bus lanes, only hard shoulders.

The issue with the N32 was that there wasn't a bus route using it, not that there was a bus lane.

If it has to stay a national primary to facilitate the bus lane instead of hard shoulder, so be it.

btw, further in the N11, from Loughlinstown to Foxrock, it was hard shoulder before it was bus lane (that's why it's 24 hours on that stretch). So it can be done, and can work well.

I should clarify, I currently commute the N/M11 by car, even on the days I do the second half by bike. I'm doing it long enough to remember when the widening, and then the M50 link and aux lane were going to "fix" the traffic. It hasn't and won't work. More roads isn't the solution to "traffic". I really want park and rides and express services buses to link with the City Centre/ Sandyford/ Luas/ Dart so I can just drive to near the N11 and pick them up. Or use the Park and Rides, and then get on the bike to any of the aforementioned places.

marno21

There's a deeper issue here, in that south of Bray there is continued expansion and development and you have a seriously constained N11 (especially at Kilmacanogue and Glen of the Downs - neither of which will be sorted by this scheme) and a single track railway at Bray Head which cannot be widened cheaply.

The N11 is really the only place you could put a bus lane - it could be quite effective if it either linked into the N11 bus lane north of Bray or else linked to the Luas/Metrolink in future for further transport.

Macy0161

marno21 wrote: »

The N11 is really the only place you could put a bus lane - it could be quite effective if it either linked into the N11 bus lane north of Bray or else linked to the Luas/Metrolink in future for further transport.

Every bus wouldn't have to go to every destination, if a proper frequency. The potential links are there now...

xxxa Sandyford - Business Park(s) and Luas Green Line
xxxb City Centre - Cherrywood + Green Line + N11 Dublin Bus
xxxc Dun Laoghaire - Cherrywood + N11 Dublin Bus + Dart

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

There's a deeper issue here, in that south of Bray there is continued expansion and development and you have a seriously constained N11 (especially at Kilmacanogue and Glen of the Downs - neither of which will be sorted by this scheme) and a single track railway at Bray Head which cannot be widened cheaply.

The N11 is really the only place you could put a bus lane - it could be quite effective if it either linked into the N11 bus lane north of Bray or else linked to the Luas/Metrolink in future for further transport.

Not covered by this project but there is also a case for road improvements leaving the north of Greystones. All the new estates and apartments in the town are going to cause chronic grid lock in the mornings on the single lane road up windgates. The traffic is all funnelled into the southern cross roundabout which has its own issues with traffic being backed up because of the Bray schools traffic.
This road really needs a bus lane too.

marno21

jvan wrote: »

Not covered by this project but there is also a case for road improvements leaving the north of Greystones. All the new estates and apartments in the town are going to cause chronic grid lock in the mornings on the single lane road up windgates. The traffic is all funnelled into the southern cross roundabout which has its own issues with traffic being backed up because of the Bray schools traffic.
This road really needs a bus lane too.

Sponge Bob on SSC was proposing a new link from north of Kilmac to north of Greystones. Sure it would cost a pretty penny but would negate the need to widen the N11 around Kilmac and through the Glen.

loyatemu

marno21 wrote: »

Sponge Bob on SSC was proposing a new link from north of Kilmac to north of Greystones. Sure it would cost a pretty penny but would negate the need to widen the N11 around Kilmac and through the Glen.

There is a Greystones Northern Access Road on the long term WCC development plan, I think it is planned to connect to J9 on the N11. It's not imminent though and I expect there will be some pushback against it as it ploughs through a fairly scenic area.

prunudo

loyatemu wrote: »

There is a Greystones Northern Access Road on the long term WCC development plan, I think it is planned to connect to J9 on the N11. It's not imminent though and I expect there will be some pushback against it as it ploughs through a fairly scenic area.

If they build houses in the lands behind the schools and opposite the cemetry its only a matter of time before it will have to be relooked at.

In saying that, flooding the n11 with 1000s of more cars from j9 will only end one way too.

incentsitive

The solution to our traffic problems is not to add more lanes. The solution is high-occupancy, priority being given to buses and cars with more than 1 passenger.
Having spent a good bit of time in the US, and LA in particular, proves that just adding more lanes adds more cars until you grind to a halt and then you add more lanes and then you grind to a halt again and......

Kermit.de.frog

incentsitive wrote: »

The solution to our traffic problems is not to add more lanes. The solution is high-occupancy, priority being given to buses and cars with more than 1 passenger.
Having spent a good bit of time in the US, and LA in particular, proves that just adding more lanes adds more cars until you grind to a halt and then you add more lanes and then you grind to a halt again and......

The flaw with your idea is you want to REMOVE lanes to accommodate. So you want drivers stuck in more traffic and piss them off at the same time.

I'm in favour of HOV lanes like in the US but they must be in addition to current lanes, not replacements which is mindless.

incentsitive

Sorry but not "pissing people off" as Ireland struggles to meet our CO2 emissions targets, is hardly something which must be achieved. We need to get people out of private cars, into sustainable transport modes.
At the moment the N11 is just chockers. Instead of 50 cars we should have numerous bus services. Stop at Ashford, Beehive, Arklow say. If it had a clear run to the Luas P&R and then onto the N11, it'd save everyone time and stress. The day of using the private car to get to work has to end.

Cookiemunster

incentsitive wrote: »

Sorry but not "pissing people off" as Ireland struggles to meet our CO2 emissions targets, is hardly something which must be achieved. We need to get people out of private cars, into sustainable transport modes.
At the moment the N11 is just chockers. Instead of 50 cars we should have numerous bus services. Stop at Ashford, Beehive, Arklow say. If it had a clear run to the Luas P&R and then onto the N11, it'd save everyone time and stress. The day of using the private car to get to work has to end.

People in Ireland will need to leave their one off houses in the middle of nowhere and move to towns and cities to get them onto PT. That's not going to happen anytime soon. The private car is going nowhere, but over the next decade we'll start transitioning away from the ICE to EVs.

loyatemu

incentsitive wrote: »

The solution to our traffic problems is not to add more lanes. The solution is high-occupancy, priority being given to buses and cars with more than 1 passenger.
Having spent a good bit of time in the US, and LA in particular, proves that just adding more lanes adds more cars until you grind to a halt and then you add more lanes and then you grind to a halt again and......

I don't think HOV lanes are a good idea, it's still a poor use of road space, and is difficult to enforce.

Macy0161

Cookiemunster wrote: »

People in Ireland will need to leave their one off houses in the middle of nowhere and move to towns and cities to get them onto PT. That's not going to happen anytime soon. The private car is going nowhere, but over the next decade we'll start transitioning away from the ICE to EVs.

I don't think that's true. People will drive shorter distances to access public transport. In fact they already are where it is available. Greystones Park and Ride is full early, Ashford House has to have parking restrictions to stop all day parking for the bus service, Lots of cars parked around the Wexford Bus pick up point in Arklow.

A car journey may remain part of the commute for many people, but it doesn't have to be the whole journey, and particularly not in the city's/ congestion where more emissions are generated per km.

EV's will do nothing to solve congestion.

Thud

Buses would need to beat cars for speed over the route for people to switch over. Cars offer greater flexibility (leave whenever from where ever you want and can go via schools/shops/etc on the way home), comfort and reliability than buses.
The cost is probably a lesser factor in this decision for most.

Off road solutions like Luas and the Dart can achieve this but I don't see buses being quicker even with a dedicated bus lane as frequent stops, traffic and traffic lights will slow them down. Reliability and frequency would also need to be high for people to switch and that's something buses aren't renowned for in Ireland.

Macy0161

Thud wrote: »

Buses would need to beat cars for speed over the route for people to switch over. Cars offer greater flexibility (leave whenever from where ever you want and can go via schools/shops/etc on the way home), comfort and reliability than buses.
The cost is probably a lesser factor in this decision for most.

Off road solutions like Luas and the Dart can achieve this but I don't see buses being quicker even with a dedicated bus lane as frequent stops, traffic and traffic lights will slow them down. Reliability and frequency would also need to be high for people to switch and that's something buses aren't renowned for in Ireland.

Obviously. But even with that, the 133 is often full both directions. An (enforced) bus lane would make a massive difference between Coynes Cross and Loughlinstown in journey times. Frequency would need investment in buses. Demand is there though - hence the success of Wexford bus, despite the lack of bus lanes, and infrequency.

Sam Russell

Mod: Has any of the last few (many) posts anything to do with the N11?

Can we have discussion on bus lanes vs car lanes in another thread - preferably in the Motors or the Commuting forums.