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M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

marno21

A desperately needed scheme in planning according to Michael Nolan of the TII at a recent Engineers Ireland conference.

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prunudo

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The only problem about going three lanes from the M11/50 junction down to Coynes Cross (or wherever a three lane bit ends with the GOTD issues), is that the 2 lane section of M50 going northbound in the mornings will cause a severe bottleneck.

I can't understand how part of the planning conditions for Cherrywood didn't include triple laning Sandyford to N11 of the M50

marno21

A timeline for this scheme has now been made available by Arup:

July 2019: publication of feasible options
Q2 2020: selection of preferred option + public display
Q4 2020: submission to An Bord Pleanala

This is a better timeline than I was expecting to be honest. Good to see.

HabibiLibnen

How will adding a third lane solve the long term issue of too many cars going to the same place at the same time? All because we think it's normal to plan low density sprawl haphazardly and moan when it doesn't work out. That it's normal for everything and everyone to be in Dublin rather than building self-sustaining communities.

All these cars will be dumped on the M50 car park regardless of whether it remains 2 lanes or 3. Will we ever start looking at how proper planning is done in Europe and beyond instead of continuously imitating the failed Anglo-American model.

I read some of the comments on the journal and I'm sorry, but I've no pity for people who decided to live in Dundalk and commute to Leopardstown, or living in Rathdrum and working in Glasnevin. I can obviously see how 80% of us are priced out of Dublin but be logical and live as close as possible to work or at least on the same route.

We have horrendously bad urban and transport planning in Ireland and sadly it appears we've learnt nothing from the recession. But our choices as to where we live, how we live and our primacy of the self over the communal greater good leads to the serious quality of life issues we now have in transport and housing. Unless we radically overhaul planning, both urban and rural, and public transport, we're just continuing the madness depicted in the drone footage.

Kermit.de.frog

Forget the Anglo - the American model is what we need and what we should aim for.

Wider motorways will deal with the problem. You add 2 extra lanes each way here - you double capacity. Proper junctions will further help. Problem solved for 30+ years.

We need a no-nonsense approach to road building - proper number of lanes, bigger junctions, actual flyovers and better signage.

Aontachtoir

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Forget the Anglo - the American model is what we need and what we should aim for. Wider motorways will deal with the problem. You add 2 extra lanes each way here - you double capacity. Proper junctions will further help.

Reminds me of that bit from Futurama where they try to stop global warming by dropping an ever-larger ice cube into the ocean every year.

listermint

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Forget the Anglo - the American model is what we need and what we should aim for.

Wider motorways will deal with the problem. You add 2 extra lanes each way here - you double capacity. Proper junctions will further help. Problem solved for 30+ years.

We need a no-nonsense approach to road building - proper number of lanes, bigger junctions, actual flyovers and better signage.

That's a genius waste of money considering driverless cars are an actual thing right now.

Take the hundreds of millions thatd you'd waste on those roads and put it into a subsidised bus system with free parking outside major regional towns . Regularly and often bus services . Full or not at a sensible price will encourage people out of their cars . The same as an easily timed luas has and does.

People just need options and it has to be visible and easy. It's not rocket science it's apathy to spending money. It's gas how we flitter away cash on tarmac with abandon as if it's a saviour

Macy0161

HabibiLibnen wrote:

How will adding a third lane solve the long term issue of too many cars going to the same place at the same time? All because we think it's normal to plan low density sprawl haphazardly and moan when it doesn't work out. That it's normal for everything and everyone to be in Dublin rather than building self-sustaining communities.

I actually think.its perfectly reasonable for a capital city to be the economic centre. The issue isn't distance, it's the rubbish public transport. Wicklow Town, Arklow etc shouldn't be long commute times.

There's a complete lack of political will to focus on busses as a major part of the solution. Partly driven by car commuters who use the excuse of rail as the only option as a way of kicking the can down the road and justifying them not shifting modes.

prunudo

We are also forgetting the huge elephant in the room when talking about long commute times. It suits the government not to invest in public transport when people are 'happy' to sit in their cars for long periods of time. They must rub their hands in glee with the amount of tax revenue car owners/users generate.

Thud

Is there anywhere in the world where this long distance bus commute system you are calling for works?
Rail/underground/trams systems work because they are not constained by traffic, a bus system will always be unreliable due to traffic even at shorter distances (inside city boundaries). A bus system is just a different type of sticking plaster similar to extra lanes. An off road solution is what is needed be it extending the luas, faster darts or something else.

Chris_5339762

I've said it before... an absolutely huge and expensive upgrade of the rail lines going south must be considered. A 3rd lane is needed too and a rework of the N11 corridor. Sadly neither may happen and its just unsustainable at the moment.

prunudo

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I've said it before... an absolutely huge and expensive upgrade of the rail lines going south must be considered. A 3rd lane is needed too and a rework of the N11 corridor. Sadly neither may happen and its just unsustainable at the moment.

100% agree, and with the planned developments all along the route its only going to get worse. The whole model of planning in Wicklow needs to be looked at because without huge multi billion investment in transport the n11 will grind to a halt, not just effecting commuters but also the transport of goods.

Ps. This applies to all routes to the capital but with the topography of North Wicklow makes any solution difficult without expensive engineering. Essentially the Glen of the Downs is the only level north-south corridor linking Dublin to the southeast. Everything else involves going over hilly terrain.

HabibiLibnen

Macy0161 wrote: »

I actually think.its perfectly reasonable for a capital city to be the economic centre.

Why so? Ottawa, Washington, Canberra, Brasilia, Berlin, Bern, Edinburgh (if Scotland was independent) dare I say Jerusalem... are capital cities but not the economic power houses of their respective countries. I'm not saying we should move the capital to Cork or Athlone but there has to be a rebalancing of economic activity towards other cities as nobody benefits from over-centralisation.

Wicklow, Meath and Kildare councils need to stop building sprawling housing estates for people who work in Dublin and start planning for building an economy of their own.

Macy0161

Thud wrote:

Is there anywhere in the world where this long distance bus commute system you are calling for works?

It's actually working despite the constraints on the n11. Wexford bus, their Wicklow bus, bus eireann are at capacity at peak times. This is without bus lanes or bus priority.

Rail maybe the long term solution, bus is a short term option. You could change hard shoulder to bus lane in a couple of weeks.

D.L.R.

HabibiLibnen wrote: »

Why so? Ottawa, Washington, Canberra, Brasilia, Berlin, Bern, Edinburgh (if Scotland was independent) dare I say Jerusalem... are capital cities but not the economic power houses of their respective countries. I'm not saying we should move the capital to Cork or Athlone but there has to be a rebalancing of economic activity towards other cities as nobody benefits from over-centralisation.

Wicklow, Meath and Kildare councils need to stop building sprawling housing estates for people who work in Dublin and start planning for building an economy of their own.

None of the above cities were ever their country's economic hub. Dublin has been Ireland's for centuries.

Not developing Dublin accordingly is insanely stupid.

marno21

MOD:

Off topic posts deleted. Debate the topic not the poster. Further off topic posts will also be deleted.

This thread is for discussion of the proposed solutions to the issues affecting the M11/N11 betwen J4 and J14. Potential topics for discussion are available here, as this is the scope of the scheme: https://n11m11.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Public-Consultation-Boards_for-print.pdf

Bigus

A double deck as above from coynes cross to M50 would be quick and wildlife friendly.

Alun

spacetweek wrote: »

I'm awaiting Bray-Coyne's with excitement. It'll be very interesting to see how they deal with the many constraining factors - trees, petrol stations, twisty alignment, poor side road layouts.

Yes, it's not going to be trivial from an engineering point of view by any means, not to mention many of the existing access points which will have to be closed off.

josip

Kilmacanogue is trivial by comparison with what the Italians managed on the A22 up to the Brenner pass.
There wasn't enough room in the gorge to fit a motorway beside the existing road so they stuck it on stilts.

https://goo.gl/maps/jGrAczhV3xk

Over 80km of it

https://goo.gl/maps/86WPcViytzs

Reuben1210

josip wrote: »

Kilmacanogue is trivial by comparison with what the Italians managed on the A22 up to the Brenner pass.
There wasn't enough room in the gorge to fit a motorway beside the existing road so they stuck it on stilts.

https://goo.gl/maps/jGrAczhV3xk

Over 80km of it

https://goo.gl/maps/86WPcViytzs

Can you imagine the NIMBYpocalypse that would be unleashed if something like that was proposed??

kneemos

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Can you imagine the NIMBYpocalypse that would be unleashed if something like that was proposed??

They'd be right.

Chris_5339762

Ironically its probably the least destructive way of getting a motorway up a valley, as greenery can grow back underneath the motorway. But yeah, that'll never happen here, and likely not again in Europe on that scale. I do want to drive it though.

Thud

Thud wrote: »

I did see some guy drive up the hard shoulder and cut across the gravelly bit onto the M11 just before the finger barriers where the M50/M11 join the other day....not an unmarked Garda car unless they drive a convertible WX reg Audi A4

I saw this bandit do the exact same thing yesterday, flew up the hard shoulder...I didn't get the reg...will next time.

prunudo

Letters have been received stating that Arup will be carrying out surveying work along the route from mid April. They seem to be a generic letter basically just informing landowners there could be people on their property doing surveying work in relation to the upgrade works.

Alun

jvan wrote: »

Letters have been received stating that Arup will be carrying out surveying work along the route from mid April. They seem to be a generic letter basically just informing landowners there could be people on their property doing surveying work in relation to the upgrade works.

I got one of these today which had me a bit worried especially as I live quite some distance away (350m) from the N11. If anyone is doing surveying works in my back garden they're probably lost!!

They did say though that they'd also be doing work regarding nature surveys, including bats (which we do see occasionally) and also measuring noise and pollution levels etc. so maybe that's why I received it?

prunudo

Tenders for the remedial work at the Kilmacanogue southbound garage to be published in the next few days. Article also mentions that letters have been sent to over 3000 landowners regarding the surveying of jn4-14.
http://wicklownews.net/2019/04/after-a-number-of-delays-tender-documents-for-the-kilmacanogue-road-safety-scheme-to-be-published/

marno21

Constraints study now underway

N11/M11 wrote:

N11/M11 Junction 4 to Junction 14 Improvement Scheme – Constraints Study

Wicklow County Council, in conjunction with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, is progressing the development of the N11/M11 Junction 4 to Junction 14 Improvement Scheme. As part of the project, it is necessary to carry out a comprehensive constraints study on the area from Ashford, Co Wicklow up to Leopardstown within the County of Dublin. The constraints study will comprise both desktop and field surveys and will cover both publicly and privately owned lands within the study area.

Why are surveys required?

A comprehensive constraints study is required for the project. The constraints study will address all constraints including human, archaeology and cultural heritage, agronomy, landscape and visual, hydrology, hydrogeology, biodiversity, geology, material assets, planning policy, noise, air and climate. These constraints will be documented and mapped and will be used by the project team to inform the development of feasible transportation options.

Who will carry out the surveys?

Only Arup’s authorised persons from appointed consultancy companies, or sub-consultants working on their behalf, will carry out surveys commencing. Each authorised person will have valid ID and authorising papers.

What type of surveys will take place?

The surveys are non-intrusive and superficial in nature.

When will surveys take place?

Surveys have commenced in May 2019 and will be on-going for a number of months. Surveys will typically take place during the day, but bat surveys are undertaken late at night to facilitate monitoring and tracking of their movements.

If I have any queries who can I contact?

Should you have any queries or comments on the nature of the surveys being undertaken, please do not hesitate to contact us using the details provided on the ‘Contact Us’ page.

https://n11m11.ie/2019/05/21/constraints-study/

marno21

jvan wrote: »

Tenders for the remedial work at the Kilmacanogue southbound garage to be published in the next few days. Article also mentions that letters have been sent to over 3000 landowners regarding the surveying of jn4-14.
http://wicklownews.net/2019/04/after-a-number-of-delays-tender-documents-for-the-kilmacanogue-road-safety-scheme-to-be-published/

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=147571&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Tender out. It's a bigger job than I thought, 1.7km.

spacetweek

marno21 wrote: »

Tender out. It's a bigger job than I thought, 1.7km.

It says the lane is from Jct 7 (Bray South) to Jct 8 (Kilmac). The distance between them acc to Gmaps is 1.7km so the new service road must be the whole way between the two junctions. This is great news and more than we would have expected.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

It says the lane is from Jct 7 (Bray South) to Jct 8 (Kilmac). The distance between them acc to Gmaps is 1.7km so the new service road must be the whole way between the two junctions. This is great news and more than we would have expected.

Indeed. A starter before the main course in a few years time.