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#SpeakOut - Sexual Assault Allegations Superthread

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    #122
    cian68
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭cian68


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Re Session Moth, slut shaming is a world apart from all this other stuff.

    Still worth addressing something that plays on to wn unsafe, mysogonist work environment


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    #123
    leggo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Re Session Moth, slut shaming is a world apart from all this other stuff.

    I don't get this viewpoint. How do you not view the DOZENS of stories along the same lines that have broken within 24 hours as a cultural issue within wrestling and instead as a series of isolated issues that coincidentally happen to follow the exact same theme?

    If you view it as a cultural issue, then yes, language people use and double standards is relevant. Because that plays a big part in formulating the culture that allows this to go on for so long unchecked.


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    #124
    beakerjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    leggo wrote: »
    We must be reading different newspapers. That case was one of the biggest news stories of the year, it only blew up for me AFTER the ruling, and their 'innocence' is still something that can be contested because even what they admit to and the way they carried on around it is shady as ****.

    Those guys treated the female like ****. It was huge before anf after the trail.

    Whether they raped her or not was debatable, but their treatment of women was appauling.


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    #125
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    leggo wrote: »
    I don't get this viewpoint. How do you not view the DOZENS of stories along the same lines that have broken within 24 hours as a cultural issue within wrestling and instead as a series of isolated issues that coincidentally happen to follow the exact same theme?

    If you view it as a cultural issue, then yes, language people use and double standards is relevant. Because that plays a big part in formulating the culture that allows this to go on for so long unchecked.

    It's quite simple really, sexually abusing someone or raping a child , destroying their lives to the extent that they commit suicide is not the same as someone calling someone a slag.

    That's not to say that slut shaming is not bad


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    #126
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    leggo wrote: »
    Again, the paranoia people feel towards this is understandable since it IS theoretically possible that this could happen. But the negating factors in the situation also make it extremely unlikely to the point that you'd need to actually prove it's a thing that does happen rather than a thing that can happen.

    Leggo, I'm not trying to get into a debate with you here. You posted earlier about how you might feel if someone ever accused you of something. You said you have nothing to worry about. I'm just describing the online reaction that I watched in real time last night. The angry mob moves fast and some of it is beyond vicious. You'd need a thick skin to get over that kind of stuff if you'd really done no evil.

    It may well be that everyone named and shamed deserves to be (and some of them should be looking at prison sentences) and if that's the case then let the righteous outrage continue.


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    #127
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    John Hutton wrote: »
    It's quite simple really, sexually abusing someone or raping a child , destroying their lives to the extent that they commit suicide is not the same as someone calling someone a slag.

    That's not to say that slut shaming is not bad

    It all fits into the way the girls are treated in wrestling though, obviously there are levels, but if it plays into an open and honest discussion then now is the time to drag it into the light.

    There are a lot of lads today patting themselves on the back because they didn't abuse anyone, but is that really where we want to set the bar.....


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    #128
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,164 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    leggo wrote: »
    See here’s the thing: you’ve nothing to defend if you’ve done nothing to be ashamed of. So you can learn a lot about people by how they defend themselves, Starr being a MASSIVE example of that.

    I’ve thought before about, as I’m sure many of us have, what would happen if we randomly saw our name pop up with some mad, untrue allegations. And with me, because I know I’m safe from that happening because there’s nothing I’m looking to hide, I’d be like: who is this person and have I even met them? Do I remember specifics if I have or can I jog my memory somehow? The important bit: is there something that I’m forgetting that could’ve been misconstrued as something else? If it was a miscommunication, I’d be confident I could clear that up relatively quickly because I tend to have good habits anyway so the scope for what could be miscommunicated to begin with is pretty tiny. And if it was entirely false, then I’d be confident I could prove that and certain that they couldn’t prove the accusation were true (because it wouldn’t be). So while it’d be jarring to see, I’d file it under ‘a mad thing happened today’ and say I’d be able to move on confident that things will sort themselves out. If it was in court, I’d know I’d be fine because there’s nothing to prove. If it was on Twitter, I could prob use my phone to track exactly what I was doing that day and be like “uh that didn’t happen sorry, I’ll happily go along with a full investigation to prove as much if needed”. Story over.

    Also I don’t think there’s this slew of insane women out there looking to make false accusations against men, particularly people like me who aren’t rich or famous or have anything of value to offer, so it’s not something worth fearing in your day to day life if you’ve a bit of cop on.

    Going on the assault against an accuser, being overly-desperate to clear your name, over-explaining or trying to twist/control the narrative like Starr, blanket denial...all of these are weird ways to act if you put yourself in people’s shoes and assume their version of events that it’s not true. So yeah, you can tell a lot by how someone responds, and also how they respond to the stories to begin with: Progress’ ‘The Darkest Timeline’ statement they put out being one such alarm bell there.

    Not everyone would have an even mind to be able reason and deduce if they were in that position. In fact I'm sure many would have an initial gut reaction to come out fighting.

    There is no right way to defend yourself. To you silence would be dignified but to some other clown they would take it as a sign of guilt. All you can do is hope the facts speak for themselves and that you and your family get through it without too much mental trauma.


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    #129
    CastorTroy
    Registered Users Posts: 28,857 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    leggo wrote: »
    We must be reading different newspapers. That case was one of the biggest news stories of the year, it only blew up for me AFTER the ruling, and their 'innocence' is still something that can be contested because even what they admit to and the way they carried on around it is shady as ****.

    I didn't mean that story as such in the papers, but if they print something wrong, retractions are buried.
    As for the case, I only heard it on the radio to and from work and the number of days they would report on it compared to the number of days they gave the outcome.
    Just in general, how often have you heard of people being accused of something only to hear they're innocent? Like until I recently went looking out of curiosity, I never knew the accusations against Enzo were found to be false


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    #130
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    It all fits into the way the girls are treated in wrestling though, obviously there are levels, but if it plays into an open and honest discussion then now is the time to drag it into the light.

    There are a lot of lads today patting themselves on the back because they didn't abuse anyone, but is that really where we want to set the bar.....

    The issue is men treating women as objects and believing they are entitled to sex, with the sexual act thus commodified, decontextualised and "separated" from the individual. This manifests itself in the ultimate form as severe sexual abuse like we are discussing here. At a lower level it leaves behind a trail of emotional hurt and damage for all involved even though this sexual promiscuity can be celebrated and encouraged by other men. Just look at Ric Flair (if we are sticking to wrestling).

    Should women behave in a similar way they are "slut shamed".

    The solution is not to equally celebrate and promote this behaviour in women (which is far far rarer) the same way it is in men and wash our hands and say all is well.

    Society needs to have a good look at itself and how it treats the sexual act and the context of same. But I don't think society is ready for that, or wants to do that.


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    #131
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,625 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Accused of sexual assault, rape, domestic abuse and his ex vanished in suspicious circumstances

    Jesus. His ex vanished ? Have they been found ? Jesus the British wrestling scene has changed in 24 hours.


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    #132
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Riddle seems to be denying his accusation (obviously)

    https://twitter.com/oldathers/status/1273984268876865541

    Riddle isn't wrong that it's a "He said/She said".


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    #133
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,164 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    Lord TSC wrote: »
    Riddle seems to be denying his accusation (obviously)

    https://twitter.com/oldathers/status/1273984268876865541

    Riddle isn't wrong that it's a "He said/She said".

    Why is he even replying to twats DMing him.


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    #134
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    The White Wolf wrote: »
    Why is he even replying to twats DMing him.

    The guy responded to another twitter post saying that he and Riddle know each other from the Indy scene.


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    #135
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Alex Shane's response.

    https://twitter.com/RealAlexShane/status/1273997052150759425


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    #136
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,625 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Lord TSC wrote: »
    The guy responded to another twitter post saying that he and Riddle know each other from the Indy scene.

    That conversation didn't read like two people who knew each other but maybe they do. The speed and amount of allegations is what gets me. It's weird that session moth martina and Jordan devlin appear to be very close friends and she didn't seem to know about any of his alleged conduct. I don't know but I'll be staying off social media for the weekend and checking here.


    I will listen to Jim cornettes podcasts this weekend as he is bound to address the allegations against him and his wife and see what other info he can provide because he is a guy who in the past if someone like a wrestler makes a allegation against him he seems to keep receipts as it were and is quick to put the story straight in those situations.


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    #137
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,164 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    Lord TSC wrote: »
    The guy responded to another twitter post saying that he and Riddle know each other from the Indy scene.

    Based on his Twitter he just seems to be someone who is for want of a better word, a hanger on.

    I'm sure Riddle wants to defend himself but responding to DMs to someone who just hung him out to dry was naive.


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    #138
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    The wrestling scene is apparently full of toxic chauvinist scum bags. Meanwhile Twitter, at the best of times, is full of the #metoo brigade who’d easily class regret sex as rape.

    What I’m saying is, it’s dangerous to blindly just believe anyone. Your hero might have a great gimmick and be able to do a 450 splash. Doesn’t mean they can’t be a creepy abuser. Same way someone in a relationship might have had a less than stellar time with their ex doesn’t necessarily equate to that partner being a sex offender.


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    #139
    leggo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Omackeral wrote: »
    The wrestling scene is apparently full of toxic chauvinist scum bags. Meanwhile Twitter, at the best of times, is full of the #metoo brigade who’d easily class regret sex as rape.

    What I’m saying is, it’s dangerous to blindly just believe anyone. Your hero might have a great gimmick and be able to do a 450 splash. Doesn’t mean they can’t be a creepy abuser. Same way someone in a relationship might have had a less than stellar time with their ex doesn’t necessarily equate to that partner being a sex offender.

    But who does this refer to in this discussion? Like I haven’t seen one case where ‘regret sex’ is even valid. David Starr? He admitted that it was what he called ‘grey rape’, and that was while trying to still spin the narrative that he was not a rapist, so even that is likely a really slanted view of what happened and it’s not pretty. Other ex-girlfriends (whose experiences he himself validated) have backed up this behaviour from him so if you were to spin it as every single one of them had the same individual experience where they regretted having sex once then spun it as rape...I dunno man, I find that extremely unlikely. I’d say it’s much more likely the chap is just a cnut who admits himself he treats women like crap and has a history of misinterpreting consent.

    <mod snip>


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    #140
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,625 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    So Justin Roberts is the next name to the added to alleged misconduct. A woman on twitter is tweeting DMs between her and Justin Roberts which don't read great for him.

    Edit: it seems she was 17 and I suppose the question did he know she was underage ?


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    #141
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Big Vito making vague allegations against John Laurinitus

    https://twitter.com/TheBigVitoBrand/status/1273999346300850179

    Evil Uno tells stories of incidents he's had.

    https://twitter.com/EvilUno/status/1274009300596383746

    Riddle's wife has her say...

    https://twitter.com/mckenzieas93V2/status/1273999436860076032


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    #142
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,164 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    Lord TSC wrote: »
    Big Vito making vague allegations against John Laurinitus

    https://twitter.com/TheBigVitoBrand/status/1273999346300850179

    Evil Uno tells stories of incidents he's had.

    https://twitter.com/EvilUno/status/1274009300596383746

    Riddle's wife has her say...

    https://twitter.com/mckenzieas93V2/status/1273999436860076032

    That dude who shared Riddles DM is stung in the comments of the last one in your postso at least that clears up whether or not he's an opportunistic scumbag in his own right.


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    #143
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    https://twitter.com/WrestlingGary/status/1274014934821670912

    [TWEET] One of the WWE Superstars who's had allegations made against them reportedly went to WWE instantly to tell their side of the story, and that several people within the company were already aware of the person who has made the accusations.


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    #144
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,625 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Lord TSC wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/WrestlingGary/status/1274014934821670912

    [TWEET] One of the WWE Superstars who's had allegations made against them reportedly went to WWE instantly to tell their side of the story, and that several people within the company were already aware of the person who has made the accusations.

    Well that's interesting.


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    #145
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,179 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Lord TSC wrote: »
    Alex Shane's response.

    https://twitter.com/RealAlexShane/status/1273997052150759425

    What a bollocks reply :pac: He just deflected without actually saying anything regarding him.

    Then again Shane is a god awlful bullshi*ter. He's one of those types who believes as long as you have confidence you can succeed. Of course this is all above having skills, a background, a knowledge etc.

    He's also a life coach FFS :pac:


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    #146
    sky88
    Registered Users Posts: 8,689 ✭✭✭sky88


    I seen Justin Roberts and bull James mentioned too

    It is truley astounding of just how many stories are coming out here


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    #147
    brianblaze
    Registered Users Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭brianblaze


    Riddle messages were fakes apparently. Her original screenshots had a Remove Ads thing in the corner from some fake message maker App. She deleted them and cropped it out but if you look in the comments the originals are there from people who noticed it.

    This whole situation is insane. What other industry has this?!? Maybe the music scene but to this scale?!


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    #148
    Sirsok
    Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭Sirsok


    Only a matter of time before WWE main roster starts getting hit.

    The Ashley Masaro to story from a few years ago is grim


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    #149
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,625 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    brianblaze wrote: »
    Riddle messages were fakes apparently. Her original screenshots had a Remove Ads thing in the corner from some fake message maker App. She deleted them and cropped it out but if you look in the comments the originals are there from people who noticed it.

    This whole situation is insane. What other industry has this?!? Maybe the music scene but to this scale?!

    Just so I'm clear the messages alledging what he'd done are apparently fake ? Insane is one word to describe it. It's why I never take anything on social media at face value, and I'm not just taking about wrestling. Yes, what some have admitted doing is very very serious but also alleedgedly faking messages is as bad. It's a very serious allegation.


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    #150
    Agent Coulson
    Registered Users Posts: 60,368 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson


    This reminds me of the scandal in the porn industry 4/5 years ago when an actress came out saying she was raped by a major star in the industry and in the same manner stories poured out on social media.


    How Stoya took on James Deen and broke the porn industry's silence
    In the few days since Stoya’s tweets, eight other women have also gone public. Tori Lux, Ashley Fires, Amber Rayne, Kora Peters, Nicki Blue, Lily LaBeau, and a woman writing as T.M., all say Deen has assaulted them, too. In the aftermath of those allegations, Deen’s career is crumbling. (He has not commented on any of them, to any of the outlets that have approached him.) Porn companies severed ties and website The Frisky killed his column for ever. Fans razed his GIFs from Tumblr. A sex toy in his likeness was pulled from production.

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/dec/04/how-stoya-took-on-james-deen-and-broke-the-porn-industrys-silence


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    #151
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,164 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    Agent Coulson wrote: »
    This reminds me of the scandal in the porn industry 3/4 years ago when an actress all came out saying she raped by a major star in the industry and in the same manner stories poured out on social media.

    Aye, that's how this works; everyone gets their bit in.


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