Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Rosahane · 12-04-2021 4:18pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Jeeezes was Harvie seperated at birth form our minister for health?
Look like twins the pair of them,and sound just as dumb!:rolleyes:

...with his 'woke' middle class socialist specs

Cass · 13-04-2021 1:12am

Only getting it through it a bit at a time, as its 35 pages, but you need to read this new SI.

Section 6 is a doozy. It creates a two tier society, one for vaccinated people and one for those not. It prohibits "events" at your home unless those attending live there or are vaccinated as well as attending other events outside your home.

Its funny how all the so called tin foil hat stuff that was utterly and immediately dismissed months ago is slowly starting to happen. Death by a thousand cuts.

Now i'm not against the use of caution in serious circumstances, but this is extracting the urine.

As for sporting events, well unless your a paid athlete or do to with horse racing/greyhounds forget enjoying your sport. Section 12 deals with that.

As said i have not read it all and there is so much to take in i'm just skimming for now, but this is one of three signed into law in the last 24 hours. Haven't gotten to the other two yet (SI 169 & 170).

Cass · 13-04-2021 1:21am

So SI169 is an order of amendment to the principle act and SI 170 is regarding the fines they'll impose including the €500 fine for the above matter of non vaccinated people being in your home.

Mellor · 13-04-2021 3:30am

Cass wrote: »

Its funny how all the so called tin foil hat stuff that was utterly and immediately dismissed months ago is slowly starting to happen. Death by a thousand cuts.

I don't think the idea that vaccinated people having reduced restrictions was ever fairly labeled as tin-foil hat stuff.
The question was how far it would be taken of course. Haven't read all the SI. so not sure how far they are taking it.

Section 6 is a doozy. It creates a two tier society, one for vaccinated people and one for those not. It prohibits "events" at your home unless those attending live there or are vaccinated as well as attending other events outside your home.

Section 6 only applies to areas under an affected area order . If there are clarity on how an affected area order will be defined or applied?

It's quite convoluted to read, so the below is my interpretation. Feel free to clarify as I'm not 100%.

6.
(1) A person shall not organise an event in a dwelling in an affected area
other than (2) or (3).

(2) A person may organise an event in a dwelling in an affected area where –
(a) the dwelling is the person’s place of residence, and
(b) persons attending are part of the same household or a paired household as the person organising the event.

(3) A vaccinated person may organise an event in a dwelling in an affected area where
(a) the dwelling is the vaccinated person’s place of residence, and
(b) the event is attended only by vaccinated persons, and
(c) persons who are part of no more than 2 households, including
the household of the person organising the event

So my take is that;
Not-Vaccinated: Can organised an event with your own and a paired household.
Vaccinated: Can organised an event with your own and 1 other household.

Cass · 13-04-2021 8:40am

Mellor wrote: »

I don't think the idea that vaccinated people having reduced restrictions was ever fairly labeled as tin-foil hat stuff.

There was never talk of vaccinated people having restricted anything, it was non vaccinated people being restricted.

The question was how far it would be taken of course. Haven't read all the SI. so not sure how far they are taking it.

Nor have i.

Section 6 only applies to areas under an affected area order. If there are clarity on how an affected area order will be defined or applied?

Its a looping description which as you pointed out is convoluted and not a bit clear.

It does not explain what a "relevant geographical location" is except to say it applies to a area that is affected. Is that a local lockdown, a "hotspot", or the entire country?

It's quite convoluted to read, so the below is my interpretation. Feel free to clarify as I'm not 100%.

I cannot clarify except to give my interpretation (excluding any mistake i've made due to the language used).

So my take is that;
Not-Vaccinated: Can organised an event with your own and a paired household.

Seems right.

Vaccinated: Can organised an event with your own and 1 other household.

Two households and only if all those attending are vaccinated.

New SI wrote:

(b) the event is attended only by vaccinated persons

As i said its a long SI and the language, as you said, is convoluted and confusing so there may be some things i'm interpreting wrong so i stand to be corrected by anyone with an understanding of the meaning of it.

However section 6 is only a small part. When i was skipping along it i noticed section 12 regarding sports. As mentioned above.

Any thoughts on it?

BattleCorp · 13-04-2021 9:44am

Cass wrote: »

It does not explain what a "relevant geographical location" is except to say it applies to a area that is affected. Is that a local lockdown, a "hotspot", or the entire country?

There's too much legislation for me to read through since then but back in April 2020 the entire State was considered an Affected Area.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/si/120/made/en/print

This definition could have been updated since then as it's a year old at this stage.

otmmyboy2 · 13-04-2021 10:48am

BattleCorp wrote: »

There's too much legislation for me to read through since then but back in April 2020 the entire State was considered an Affected Area.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/si/120/made/en/print

This definition could have been updated since then as it's a year old at this stage.

Spot on Battle.

Currently the entire state is still considered to be an affected area.
Similarly when the midlands counties were locked down first they were designated an affected area.

Honestly this segregation is utterly despicable.
In usual government divide and rule fashion they divide the populace again and let the 2 sides argue amongst themselves.

Nor does it deal with those who cannot get vaccinated for medical, religious, age, or other reasons.

It is a medical apartheid. :mad::mad::mad:

I only hope that like the 2 hotel quarantine cases that were won yesterday and costs ordered for the plaintiffs that similar will happen here.

tudderone · 13-04-2021 11:37am

Not to mention the usual cronyism that seems to be prevalent, members of boards, school teachers in private schools, td relations etc getting first dibs at the vaccines, in true irish fashion. I see there was riots and serious unrest in some european countries over this lockdown, especially from hospitality staff tired of the lack of work.

otmmyboy2 · 13-04-2021 12:30pm

tudderone wrote: »

Not to mention the usual cronyism that seems to be prevalent, members of boards, school teachers in private schools, td relations etc getting first dibs at the vaccines, in true irish fashion. I see there was riots and serious unrest in some european countries over this lockdown, especially from hospitality staff tired of the lack of work.

I think it was on Yes, Minister that Humphrey said something along the lines of "We will have as much unemployment as people are willing to pay for". Such a prescient show and especially relevant here given we inherited our civil service from the UK.

PUP has been a key part of that divide and rule playbook, where other countries have used stimulus packages, meaningfully cut VAT/sale tax, etc to assist everyone our gov went for paying off those they have most screwed over, to keep them quiet. And everyone else (cronies excluded obviously, especially Tifco hotel group) gets bugger all but the bill.

Even now with protests in towns and cities every weekend the media scarcely mentions them at all, usually when both the blue and black wearing thugs disrupt the otherwise peaceful protests.
I refer here to both gardai and the black bloc. :P

There is a serious lack of national unity in Ireland but I really fail to see how any regular person, regardless of political leaning, could be for a 2 tier society.

Grizzly 45 · 13-04-2021 12:38pm

Meantime in the rest of the World...The resistance is starting... In Canada..of all places.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziWXH7T15zw&t=2s

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/enough-restaurant-owners-patrons-scream-government-mask-enforcers-get-lecture-masks/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=the-gateway-pundit&utm_campaign=dailypm&utm_content=daily

otmmyboy2 · 13-04-2021 1:20pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Meantime in the rest of the World...The resistance is starting... In Canada..of all places.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziWXH7T15zw&t=2s

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/enough-restaurant-owners-patrons-scream-government-mask-enforcers-get-lecture-masks/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=the-gateway-pundit&utm_campaign=dailypm&utm_content=daily

Brilliant!
Surprising given the country's rep, but brilliant.

Saw a video of a pastor in Alberta kicking police out of her church too for disrupting the service.

Couple that with the cases ongoing against the Canadian hotel detention and they are sure giving a good go of it.

Grizzly 45 · 13-04-2021 1:55pm

Take it for what its's worth or whether you agree with her politics.But this is worth watching and following up on your level?

Feisar · 13-04-2021 2:03pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

There is a serious lack of national unity in Ireland but I really fail to see how any regular person, regardless of political leaning, could be for a 2 tier society.

I like to see myself as reasonable...

And I’d be happy enough if half the country was vaccinated that they’d be able to get out and about and get business back motoring again. IMHO it’s much more unfair to keep strangling business and people’s mental health when there is an option available.

Couple of caveats:

That lockdown is the correct option
Feckers who jumped the que should be shot with balls of their own shíte

On national unity, we seem to lack a sense of civic duty one sees in other countries. Even when we were piss poor and people would help their neighbours they’d still do their best to dodge the taxman. There is no big picture with us for some reason.

Cass · 13-04-2021 2:47pm

Feisar wrote: »

That lockdown is the correct option

At the start perhaps. After 14 months, no.

There is no big picture with us for some reason.

Not the only reason, but with Government constantly trying to turn neighbour against neighbour its not surprising.

Cass · 13-04-2021 3:02pm

Still trying to get my head around that SI.

Section 16 deals with data protection and GDPR. It seems to give AGS (as well as health workers) nominated person status for the purpose of collecting private data.

tudderone · 13-04-2021 3:03pm

Feisar wrote: »

That lockdown is the correct option
Feckers who jumped the que should be shot with balls of their own shíte

On national unity, we seem to lack a sense of civic duty one sees in other countries. Even when we were piss poor and people would help their neighbours they’d still do their best to dodge the taxman. There is no big picture with us for some reason.

The queue jumpers are the reason for the lack of civic unity. We all remember when the country was down to the canvas back in the 70's and 80's, and we still had a clique at the top looking after each other, private islands and yachts, tax dodging and fiddling, even more recently we had a minister for finance with no bank account.

So your average man in the street knows whats happening, and says, "If they can do it, so can i".

As the father said, "we got rid of John Bull and Paddy bull took over".

Cass · 13-04-2021 3:04pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

This definition could have been updated since then as it's a year old at this stage.

Second page:

Revocation
2. The Health Act 1947 (Section 31A - Temporary Restrictions) (Covid19) (No. 10) Regulations 2020 (S.I. No. 701 of 2020) are revoked.

Mellor · 13-04-2021 3:38pm

Cass wrote: »

There was never talk of vaccinated people having restricted anything, it was non vaccinated people being restricted.

I said vaccinated people having reduced restrictions. That’s accurate.

Is that a local lockdown, a "hotspot", or the entire country?

Based on other countries, that have been much more on the ball that Ireland. It should be various regions at various times.
ie the whole country, reducing to individual counties/hotspots. Yet to be seen if that will be the case.

Two households and only if all those attending are vaccinated.

Two including your own. So one other really.
And yes all need to be vaccinated. Otherwise the paid household only applies.

My thoughts on it are it’s very convoluted. Not just section 6. Sports also a bit unbalanced

tonysopprano · 13-04-2021 3:50pm

4) For the purposes of paragraph (3), a vaccinated person has reasonable
excuse for organising, or causing to be organised, an event to be held in a
dwelling in a relevant geographical location where -
(a) the dwelling is the vaccinated person’s place of residence,
(b) the event is attended only by vaccinated persons, and
(c) persons who are part of no more than 2 households, including
the household of the person organising the event, attend the
event.

Question: 2 Adults and 2 children living in a house. Only 1 adult vaccinated. Where do the children and other adult go if vaccinated person wants another vaccinated over for chat?. As this is a penal provision, staying in the house can get you sent to jail and if you leave the house you are in breach of the travel restrictions, also could get you sent to jail and even if you only go to the garden this could get you jailed.

Cass · 13-04-2021 4:00pm

Mellor wrote: »

I said vaccinated people having reduced restrictions. That’s accurate.

Never said i was referring to you. The original point was the "tin foil hat" talk which spoke of restriction to those that were non vaccinated. Thats accurate as was my previous statement.

Yet to be seen if that will be the case.

So far, not so.

My thoughts on it are it’s very convoluted. Not just section 6. Sports also a bit unbalanced

Same applies to retail and what is deemed essential.

Clothing stores are not listed, that I see, as being essential so not allowed to open but there is specific mention of children's footwear/shoe selling being permitted yet shoe shops are not opened/allowed to open because they serve more than children's footwear.

That brings me onto shops with clothing sections. Dunnes, Tescos, etc. have clothing sections and people are already in the store and mingling so what is the thinking behind not permitting clothing sections to be open or is it a case of stopping them so clothes only outlets won't want to open? Even if they did what is the danger as opposed to a food store in terms of numbers. All shops i've seen so far have "bouncers" on the door counting people inside at any one time and stopping more entering if numbers get too high.

Cass · 13-04-2021 4:04pm

tonysopprano wrote: »

Question: 2 Adults and 2 children living in a house. Only 1 adult vaccinated. Where do the children and other adult go if vaccinated person wants another vaccinated over for chat?. .

To the best of my understanding unless all people are vaccinated you can only mix with one other "paired" household.

Wonder can a vaccinated person visit whom they like?

otmmyboy2 · 13-04-2021 7:38pm

Feisar wrote: »

And I’d be happy enough if half the country was vaccinated that they’d be able to get out and about and get business back motoring again. IMHO it’s much more unfair to keep strangling business and people’s mental health when there is an option available.

In that case when it was being debated months ago that the rest of the country start opening up and those who were most at risk (the elderly, immunocompromised, etc) stay at home such a plan was shot down by the gov because it would be unfair, create a 2 tier society, etc.

Which is exactly what they are doing now.

I don't see how you can be for letting those who are least likely to have severe reactions to covid have more freedom now, but not before...

That lockdown is the correct option

Why?

Maybe, in the very beginning, when the virus was predicted to be significantly more easily spread and deadly. But if that was the case why were our borders open then but largely closed now...
Now we know lockdowns are not the best solution, nor are they warranted on the scale and longevity they have been used here.

On national unity, we seem to lack a sense of civic duty one sees in other countries. Even when we were piss poor and people would help their neighbours they’d still do their best to dodge the taxman. There is no big picture with us for some reason.

Perhaps that has something to do with liking our neighbours, and despising the ridiculously high taxes we have to pay only to get rightly buggered in return.

otmmyboy2 · 13-04-2021 7:49pm

Yet another high court challenge over hotel quarantine!

And this on the foot of there being no available beds currently since the addition of the extra countries to the detention list.

tonysopprano · 13-04-2021 8:20pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Yet another high court challenge over hotel quarantine!

And this on the foot of there being no available beds currently since the addition of the extra countries to the detention list.

TIFCO have no hotels in Cork or Shannon, so they are busing the unclean to Dublin

Grizzly 45 · 13-04-2021 8:29pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Perhaps that has something to do with liking our neighbours, and despising the ridiculously high taxes we have to pay only to get rightly buggered in return.

That's a natural inbred gene in the Irish race, from 600/800/1000 years of oppression and occupation. We DO NOT like being told what to do by figures in authority.

civdef · 13-04-2021 8:37pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Take it for what its's worth or whether you agree with her politics.But this is worth watching and following up on your level?

I have seen some fair nonsense on this forum , but that is seriously right up there. Absolute total crap. And it's targeting one of the most straight up people in Irish public life.

Disgraceful.

civdef · 13-04-2021 8:42pm

Wow, did the last 200 years of human development get lost in the post or something? Vaccines work. They are our only hope of getting out of this mess at the moment in any sort of timeframe. Do people want this to go on longer than it needs to?

tudderone · 13-04-2021 9:19pm

civdef wrote: »

Wow, did the last 200 years of human development get lost in the post or something? Vaccines work. They are our only hope of getting out of this mess at the moment in any sort of timeframe. Do people want this to go on longer than it needs to?

Better do like the Germans are doing and approach Putin directly for the Sputnik V vaccine the Russians are making, and ignoring the car crash EU effort then. The fact its only 50% as effective as the other shouldn't bother anyone.

civdef · 13-04-2021 9:24pm

tudderone wrote: »

Better do like the Germans are doing and approach Putin directly for the Sputnik V vaccine the Russians are making, and ignoring the car crash EU effort then. The fact its only 50% as effective as the other shouldn't bother anyone.

The facts that Russia are trying to leverage vaccine prestige abroad without managing to protect their own population, the fact that they sent Slovakia vaccines that didn't match the description, and the fact that they took the hump bigstyle when Slovakia got them analyzed independently should bother everyone.

If Sputnik passes EMEA approval, and is produced outside Russia, I'd be happy to take it - not otherwise.

Mellor · 14-04-2021 12:06am

tonysopprano wrote: »

Question: 2 Adults and 2 children living in a house. Only 1 adult vaccinated. Where do the children and other adult go if vaccinated person wants another vaccinated over for chat?. As this is a penal provision, staying in the house can get you sent to jail and if you leave the house you are in breach of the travel restrictions, also could get you sent to jail and even if you only go to the garden this could get you jailed.

I'd agree with Cass's interpretation above. Unless all people are vaccinated in the house, they are left with the only paired household option.
Vaccinated person could attend the other persons house I suppose.

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Maybe, in the very beginning, when the virus was predicted to be significantly more easily spread and deadly. But if that was the case why were our borders open then but largely closed now...

But the virus has been shown to be easily spread. Not sure what you are referring to here with the "now we know stuff".
The Irish border has been a farce.

Now we know lockdowns are not the best solution, nor are they warranted on the scale and longevity they have been used here.

Well implemented lockdowns have been shown to be very effective.
But people taking the mick with them, easily undermine it and a small group ignoring it continues to extend it for everyone.

civdef wrote: »

If Sputnik passes EMEA approval, and is produced outside Russia, I'd be happy to take it - not otherwise.

I wouldn't touch one produced by Russia. Nothing to do with a conspiracy theory that was will posion the world, put mind control substances in it or whatever. I simply don't trust any aspect of Russain industry to have remotely sufficient quality control.
I believe they'd be going to market regardless of the efficacy.

Cass · 14-04-2021 12:21am

Mellor wrote: »

I'd agree with Cass's interpretation above.

What the s**tballs :eek: :eek: :eek:

tudderone · 14-04-2021 1:22am

Mellor wrote: »

Well implemented lockdowns have been shown to be very effective.
But people taking the mick with them, easily undermine it and a small group ignoring it continues to extend it for everyone.

Yeah, but its been a year now or just over of house arrest, people are pig sick of it at this stage, i certainly am. Haven't fired a shot in 13 months or something, cutting my own hair, cannot buy a pair of shoes or a shirt, having to wear a mask like one of the James Younger gang everytime you go anywhere, work dried up.

The lockdown should be one element in this pandemic, along with the vaccine, but a complete balls has been made of that by the eu, and not much sign of it getting better, third wave expected mid summer. Is it any wonder people are getting bolshie ?

Mellor · 14-04-2021 1:37am

Cass wrote: »

What the s**tballs :eek: :eek: :eek:

Mellor · 14-04-2021 1:56am

tudderone wrote: »

Yeah, but its been a year now or just over of house arrest, people are pig sick of it at this stage, i certainly am. Haven't fired a shot in 13 months or something, cutting my own hair, cannot buy a pair of shoes or a shirt, having to wear a mask like one of the James Younger gang everytime you go anywhere, work dried up.

I fully get that it's a sickener. I think some of the measures have been handled poorly. Some are pointless, when obvius measure have been avoided.
But I also think that people flaunting the rules from the start have directly contributed to the extended lockdown for others. Ironically these are likely to be the people complaining loudest. You know the type I mean. Doing at the please. Refusing to wash their hands or sanitise. Real modern day rebels.

(to be clear, not aimed at anyone here, probably obvious but wanted that to be crystal)

Cass · 14-04-2021 7:16am

tudderone wrote: »

.......and not much sign of it getting better, third wave expected mid summer.

Fourth, not to be pedantic.

Cass · 14-04-2021 7:22am

Feisar wrote: »

That lockdown is the correct option.

My objection is not simply to be a voice for opposition. This is the third, i believe, instance in as many months of why the lockdown in its current format is pointless or simply failed.

tudderone · 14-04-2021 9:44am

Cass wrote: »

My objection is not simply to be a voice for opposition. This is the third, i believe, instance in as many months of why the lockdown in its current format is pointless or simply failed.

Yes. Mary lou said as much, no point having lockdowns when there are 10,000 a week flying in, often from places like Brazil, which is completely over run with the virus. Anyone on these flights tested ? Mean while the aussy's get it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9468285/Australia-wont-open-borders-vaccinated-against-Covid.html

BattleCorp · 14-04-2021 10:02am

Mellor wrote: »

But I also think that people flaunting the rules from the start have directly contributed to the extended lockdown for others. Ironically these are likely to be the people complaining loudest. You know the type I mean. Doing at the please. Refusing to wash their hands or sanitise. Real modern day rebels.

I've to agree with Mellor on the above point. If people were properly following lockdown rules we wouldn't have anywhere near 500 cases per day or whatever it is now.

Rows Grower · 14-04-2021 10:32am

civdef wrote: »

I have seen some fair nonsense on this forum , but that is seriously right up there. Absolute total crap. And it's targeting one of the most straight up people in Irish public life.

Disgraceful.

I couldn't agree more but I had to sit through the whole 9 minutes of misguided waffle to try and find out who was the straight up person she (they) were targeting and am still none the wiser.

No way am I watching that rubbish again, what is wrong with people like her?

otmmyboy2 · 14-04-2021 11:12am

Mellor wrote: »

But the virus has been shown to be easily spread. Not sure what you are referring to here with the "now we know stuff".
The Irish border has been a farce.

WHO reported the mortality rate at 3.4% in March 2020.
Similarly an R0 of 4 was reported.
There have been very few suspected cases of transmission by surface, which was said to be a problem for up to 48 hours after the fact, and in the air if an infected person had sneezed for up to 24 hours.

There was a lot of speculation and inflated sense of danger at the start, statistically now we can see that.

We have a lot more concrete idea of the realities of covid now, so our strategy should be based on that reality, not still stuck in the past.

Well implemented lockdowns have been shown to be very effective.
But people taking the mick with them, easily undermine it and a small group ignoring it continues to extend it for everyone.

And what makes you think Ireland could ever achieve such?
All evidence to the contrary of the past 13 months included.

Sweden being a prime example, with relatively low excess mortality, mental impact, good economic performance, etc and still the main part of their covid strategy is recommendations, not house arrest and draconian laws backed up by penal provisions.

Our strategy has evidently not worked, regardless of reason.
So why can we not accept it as a failed gambit and move onto to something that could?

Everyone has "lockdown fatigue" as it now seems to be known, people are stressed, lonely, miserable, etc, so why not adopt a more Swedish model and change the message to something milder than the incessant warble coming from the government currently.

If the stick is not working(which by your own writing I think you agree with) then why not remove it and try something, anything different, rather than doubling down on the draconian and attempting to make segments of society (the young, the old, the rich, the poor, the un-vaccinated, the vaccinated, etc) turn against each other?

Even the WHO have come out against having lockdowns as the primary method of covid control.

Now with the recent news of possible transmissions including shopping being 55.8% seemingly I think that should call into question the other mandatory measures, ie masks, distancing, screens, visors, capacity limits, etc for review, since they evidently are not particularly effective.

The FT's stringency index even shows Ireland as having the most stringent level of lockdown starting on March 28 until mid June, then back up in October, and all the time since absenting a few days in December.

BattleCorp · 14-04-2021 11:39am

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

The FT's stringency index even shows Ireland as having the most stringent level of lockdown starting on March 28 until mid June, then back up in October, and all the time since absenting a few days in December.

With respect, stringent me hole.

Hundreds at loads of funerals, parties galore, shebeens, visiting houses etc.

Mellor · 14-04-2021 11:47am

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

WHO reported the mortality rate at 3.4% in March 2020.
Similarly an R0 of 4 was reported.
There have been very few suspected cases of transmission by surface, which was said to be a problem for up to 48 hours after the fact, and in the air if an infected person had sneezed for up to 24 hours.

There was a lot of speculation and inflated sense of danger at the start, statistically now we can see that.

The WHO estimated R0 to be 2.5. Other estimates had it higher. I don’t think that number has been shown to be unrealistic for built up areas.
R0 is is not the same as the current R number.

And even it the R0 is not as high as initial thought, that doesn’t mean it isn’t easily spread. An R0 of 2.5 isn’t the benchmark for highly contagious.
Previous coronaviruses has R0’s of around 0.5. Corona-19 is quite obviously passed much more readily. That’s why previous virus went away relatively easily.

civdef · 14-04-2021 12:04pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

The FT's stringency index even shows Ireland as having the most stringent level of lockdown starting on March 28 until mid June, then back up in October, and all the time since absenting a few days in December.

Ireland has actually done well compared to other similar countries, except for the times when we relaxed precautions. If we had avoided losing the head around Christmas we'd have done really well.

I am sick to f*** of lockdown. As soon as anyone shows me an alternative that doesn't involve burying thousands of vulnerable people, I'll be all for it.

The only one I see is universal vaccinations - but a lot of the same people against lockdowns, masks etc are against vaccinations!

otmmyboy2 · 14-04-2021 12:44pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

With respect, stringent me hole.

Hundreds at loads of funerals, parties galore, shebeens, visiting houses etc.

Stringent looking at the regulations in place, read the explainer if you haven't already.

Mellor wrote: »

The WHO estimated R0 to be 2.5. Other estimates had it higher. I don’t think that number has been shown to be unrealistic for built up areas.
R0 is is not the same as the current R number.

But that R0 reported was overall, not urban, thus the overall R0 is lower by a decent bit.

And even it the R0 is not as high as initial thought, that doesn’t mean it isn’t easily spread. An R0 of 2.5 isn’t the benchmark for highly contagious.
Previous coronaviruses has R0’s of around 0.5. Corona-19 is quite obviously passed much more readily. That’s why previous virus went away relatively easily.

I said "more easily spread", not easily spread, indicating the difference of the initial expectation of spread vs what we now know.

civdef wrote: »

Ireland has actually done well compared to other similar countries, except for the times when we relaxed precautions. If we had avoided losing the head around Christmas we'd have done really well.

Disagree wholeheartedly.
If their initial lockdown worked so well, when they had the time to come up with other methods then why are we on lockdown 3 or 4, I dunno which at this point.
Same question again, if any of the lockdowns worked why did we need subsequent ones?
Why are we still sitting here after over a literal year of lavish spending with a health service which is still incapable of handling surges in hospitalisations?

Why when it has become clear that, regardless of the reason(disobedience, lack of cohesive messaging, contradictions, etc) lockdowns have not been effective in that as soon as they are released in any way numbers shoot up again?
Lockdowns should have been used to create some time to get the HSE in order and capable, instead they are still the go to, which is why we are here a year later and still in the most stringent and long lasting lockdowns in Europe!
More than some EU countries combined.
What lockdowns have been effective in doing has been killing the economy, racking up a huge increase in national debt, and committing every tax payer in Ireland, and their children, and likely grandchildren, to paying off that massive and still increasing debt.

How does that make lockdown in any way effective at beating covid?

Martin even said there was no strategy bar a string of lockdown, easing, lockdown until vaccinations were completed!
How the hell is that a strategy, after over a year of time to think, plan, etc?!

That is literally the same stupidity seen with firearms regulation, knee jerk, and if that is ineffective knee jerk harder. :mad:

I am sick to f*** of lockdown. As soon as anyone shows me an alternative that doesn't involve burying thousands of vulnerable people, I'll be all for it.

Given our method of counting includes "suspected" deaths and there have been some reports of a very low excess mortality in Ireland in 2020 vs previous years I'll be waiting until official figures are out before counting the thousands.

Uncountable will be the number of deaths which are a result of the government's mishandling of covid, the missed cancer treatments & diagnosis, scans, mental health declining, businesses failing, etc.

The only one I see is universal vaccinations - but a lot of the same people against lockdowns, masks etc are against vaccinations!

Personally I'm not against vaccinations at all, however I am completely against forced vaccinations.

That includes denial of equal rights for unvaccinated vs vaccinated people, which is just a way to backdoor mandatory vaccinations, same as the PSC was for driving licences.

Bodily autonomy is a big thing and I cannot comprehend how mandatory vaccinations doesn't go against that.

And I use the term mandatory because I take it that is what you mean by universal.
Are you planning on holding people down and forcing the needle into their arms?
Or possibly you are ok with your taxes going to those who are willing to do that job?
Or maybe you are just ok with the more insidious approach of slowly cutting off that segment of society until they are forced into it.

That is of course leaving aside the following issues around vaccinations which have never been addressed in a concrete manner:

Religious objections
Moral objections
Not being medically fit
Not being eligible
Vaccine supply problems
Efficacy of vaccines vs new variants
Pregnant women
Children, toddlers & babies

I think there are far too many issues around the above scenarios to just think mandatory vaccinations are a potential path to go down.

Mellor · 14-04-2021 12:57pm

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

But that R0 reported was overall, not urban, thus the overall R0 is lower by a decent bit.

By what basis do you think the R0 is lower by a decent bit?

There’s no such that as urban R0. Just the R0 for a virus. I said built up areas as initial outbreaks were in those areas and they better reflect an R0 scenario.

I said "more easily spread", not easily spread, indicating the difference of the initial expectation of spread vs what we now know.

Similar to the above. What is this difference? How are you working that out?

Personally I'm not against vaccinations at all, however I am completely against forced vaccinations.

That includes denial of equal rights for unvaccinated vs vaccinated people, which is just a way to backdoor mandatory vaccinations, same as the PSC was for driving licences.

Bodily autonomy is a big thing and I cannot comprehend how mandatory vaccinations doesn't go against that.

I’m also fully against forced vaccines.
People have bodily autonomy as you say. If people want to choose not to be vaccinated. They should be able to make that choice.

However, I don’t know how we can justify the idea that making that choice is not without consequence.

Grizzly 45 · 14-04-2021 12:59pm

tudderone wrote: »

Better do like the Germans are doing and approach Putin directly for the Sputnik V vaccine the Russians are making, and ignoring the car crash EU effort then. The fact its only 50% as effective as the other shouldn't bother anyone.

The Germans have made a complete and utter pigs ass of the whole thing themselves in Germany. Along with playing politics and trying a one size fits ll on the different Federal states>They are in another fine mess that is going to finish off Merkel and her party.:mad:

Grizzly 45 · 14-04-2021 1:16pm

Meantime stateside ...Over 40% of the USMC are declining the vaccine, simply because this vacc in the US is released to use under emergency FDA legislation,and still only has experimental status...

WHAT is the status of all these vacs here in the EU ? Are they experimental? Approved with full testing,all known side effects researched etc? Guess not if some can develop blood clots?

I'm not anti-Vac pers se, the benefits are100% there for humanity, but if you consider how long it took to develop the polio vac under optimum time conditions and clinical trials that lasted 4to 5 years, and this is developed and being sent out within 12 months is kind of on the extreme side of miraculous...So excuse me if I have some doubts that this is wholly and fully 99% safe. Maybe I'll sit it out until gen 2 comes along.

Seven states in the US have dropped all mandatory State Covid restrictions, and are leaving it to business to enforce if they wish, and their death rates are dropping... The Great Fauci is baffled as to why this is happening,while other states like NYC are still level if not climbing.

tudderone · 14-04-2021 1:31pm

Just seen in the mejia that the Johnson and Johnson one shot vaccine is ..........causing bloodclots.

otmmyboy2 · 14-04-2021 1:37pm

Mellor wrote: »

By what basis do you think the R0 is lower by a decent bit?

Than the initial estimation of 4?
Several articles note that with a large variance of preventative measures countries are seeing R0 of between 0.7 and 1.9.
Compared to 4 that is a decent bit lower in my view.

There’s no such that as urban R0. Just the R0 for a virus. I said built up areas as initial outbreaks were in those areas and they better reflect an R0 scenario.

Your use of "I don’t think that number has been shown to be unrealistic for built up areas" leading to my referring to that as urban R0.

Similar to the above. What is this difference? How are you working that out?

Easily vs more easily?

As I stated above:
"the difference of the initial expectation of spread vs what we now know."
"There have been very few suspected cases of transmission by surface, which was said to be a problem for up to 48 hours after the fact, and in the air if an infected person had sneezed for up to 24 hours.".

I’m also fully against forced vaccines.
People have bodily autonomy as you say. If people want to choose not to be vaccinated. They should be able to make that choice.

However, I don’t know how we can justify the idea that making that choice is not without consequence.

So in the one sentence you are fully against forced vaccines, but the other bolded are you implying they should suffer consequences for their decision?

If so which consequences?

Not entirely sure how you can reconcile the two, either it is optional, mandatory, or some coercive middle ground.

tudderone · 14-04-2021 1:44pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The Germans have made a complete and utter pigs ass of the whole thing themselves in Germany. Along with playing politics and trying a one size fits ll on the different Federal states>They are in another fine mess that is going to finish off Merkel and her party.:mad:

Whoever would have thought the Germans, known for their logic and efficiency, would make a town-halls of it ? So thats the Germans and the eu. Gawd help us.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Comments

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County