Small Claims Court Thread

Mad Benny · 14-05-2020 5:20pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Had they come out and offered people a voucher for the flight and then maybe another 20 euro voucher on top as a gesture of good will then people might go for that.

If they had offered a voucher valid for 3 years I would have accepted. 12 months is unacceptable for me.

Given their response to date I wouldn't trust them to automatically refund in the future. I suspect they will impose more impediments to discourage customers from availing of it.

I live in Dublin, a visit to Swords isn't a big deal for me. If they want to waste my time I'll happily waste theirs too.

Pkiernan · 14-05-2020 6:24pm

Got the following from Ryanair - last week they said they would refund me.
Now asking for me to take a voucher:

"Dear Customer,

Over the past months the spread of the Covid-19 virus has caused many EU governments to impose flight and/or travel bans which grounded over 99% of Ryanair’s flights. We are doing everything we can to support our customers, our people and protect jobs. We are ready to return flying when Covid-19 is defeated, hopefully sooner rather than later.

We regret that these Government travel restrictions have forced the cancellation of your Ryanair flight(s) under booking reference:: xxxxxx.

We are experiencing an unprecedented volume of support requests due to Covid-19, so we kindly ask you to bear with us at this busy time. The processing time for cash refunds is taking far longer than normal as we are processing over 1,000 times the normal volume of cancellations. We also have 75% fewer staff available to process refunds due to social distancing restrictions.

Ryanair is offering vouchers and free moves as these are automated and give customers an immediate alternative. Customers who choose not to accept a free move or voucher will receive their refund in due course, once this crisis has passed. Over the coming weeks and months, we will be working hard to process refund requests as quickly as we can.

We sincerely apologise for these unavoidable refund delays which are due to the unprecedented volume of Govt. imposed flight cancellations and we sincerely thank customers for their patience.

Please see below details of your travel voucher for xxxxEUR, the full value of your unused booking. This amount can be used for the purchase of Ryanair flights and other services at any time over the next 12 months. It is simple to use this voucher when making a booking on the Ryanair website or app. Please click here for a full set of T&C's.

Please click on the link below to accept your voucher "

They do go on to say:

"If you accept the voucher and do not use it before the expiry date you will receive a full cash refund, if you only use the voucher in part before the expiry date you can also receive the balance owing in a cash refund.

If you do not wish to accept this voucher option and wish to move your flight or request a refund, please contact us....link"

Caranica · 14-05-2020 10:14pm

You were warned. Do not believe anything Ryanair say until the money is in your account. This week I was told that what I was promised was aspirational and in keeping with the information they had at the time :rolleyes:

Make sure you use chat and not the form of the link as that's the only way your rejection of the voucher will be noted.

paddy19 · 15-05-2020 8:58am

Caranica wrote: »

You were warned. Do not believe anything Ryanair say until the money is in your account. This week I was told that what I was promised was aspirational and in keeping with the information they had at the time :rolleyes:

Make sure you use chat and not the form of the link as that's the only way your rejection of the voucher will be noted.

Ryanair are trying to confuse people with their voucher offer.

You don't need to reject the voucher.

You do need to show evidence that you have applied for a refund.

This could be a screen shot of the application.

You could also show a screenshot a rejection of your refund request because it's already on the system.

Pkiernan · 15-05-2020 9:29am

paddy19 wrote: »

Ryanair are trying to confuse people with their voucher offer.

You don't need to reject the voucher.

You do need to show evidence that you have applied for a refund.

This could be a screen shot of the application.

You could also show a screenshot a rejection of your refund request because it's already on the system.

Yep.

I have email from them cancelling the flight and confirming that I will be refunded.

Also have acreenshots of my refund being approved and telling me it will be processed in 20 days.

More then enough for the SCC in the event they don't pay.

Caranica · 15-05-2020 10:02am

paddy19 wrote: »

Ryanair are trying to confuse people with their voucher offer.

You don't need to reject the voucher.

They told me on Tuesday that I was not in the refund queue as they had no record of me declining the voucher.

paddy19 · 15-05-2020 12:08pm

Caranica wrote: »

They told me on Tuesday that I was not in the refund queue as they had no record of me declining the voucher.

There is no requirement to reject the voucher.

Legally under EU261 you need to request a refund, that's all.

Ryanair cannot negate that refund request by offering you a voucher.

The simplest way of requesting the refund is on the web page.

https://refundclaims.ryanair.com/

If this is not working for you I'd suggest sending a ordinary mail to:

Refunds, Customer Service Department, Ryanair DAC, Airside Business Park, Swords Co. Dublin.

Guest Relations Department, Aer Lingus Head Office, Dublin Airport, Co Dublin K67 PW99

Take a photo of the stamped addressed envelope for your records.

Caranica · 15-05-2020 12:53pm

I'm simply repeating what I was told. As you know I first requested a refund on 11 March. It's not as if I haven't tried everything bar the SCC with zero success to date.

Muahahaha · 15-05-2020 1:27pm

Can anyone working in software development comment on how easy/hard it would be for Ryanair to set up an automated refund system that refunds back on your card once you request it on their website. Its hardly rocket science, they've automated how to take your money in the first place.

And if it did actually need human intervention they have 3,000 odd staff sitting at home twiddling their thumbs. It would be interesting to know how many hundreds of millions they have of passengers cash sloshing around in their accounts. All while a barrel of oil is at extremely low prices, you just know O'Leary is seeing this as an opportunity to hedge on aviation fuel while it is dirt cheap and the bonus is they can use other peoples money to do it.

ShatterProof · 15-05-2020 1:38pm

Flight on the 22nd May

Cancellation notified on 7th May and applied for refund. As per mail it is to be refunded within 20 day.

Voucher received yesterday, 14th May.

Today, 15th May, using chat rejected refund and told them I'll be expecting refund in the 20 days as they offered or the 7 days as per EU261

15th Jun , calendar set for opening SCC case. I'll give the extra week.

ShatterProof · 15-05-2020 1:42pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can anyone working in software development comment on how easy/hard it would be for Ryanair to set up an automated refund system that refunds back on your card once you request it on their website. Its hardly rocket science, they've automated how to take your money in the first place.

And if it did actually need human intervention they have 3,000 odd staff sitting at home twiddling their thumbs. It would be interesting to know how many hundreds of millions they have of passengers cash sloshing around in their accounts. All while a barrel of oil is at extremely low prices, you just know O'Leary is seeing this as an opportunity to hedge on aviation fuel while it is dirt cheap and the bonus is they can use other peoples money to do it.

from their chat,

Due to social distancing set up by the government, our refund teams must work from home, and because of this they have limited access to customers personal financial information.

I'm assuming they have VPNs and proper security measures in place. Their explanation doesn't hold water.

golfrules · 15-05-2020 9:52pm

ShatterProof wrote: »

Flight on the 22nd May

Cancellation notified on 7th May and applied for refund. As per mail it is to be refunded within 20 day.

Voucher received yesterday, 14th May.

Today, 15th May, using chat rejected refund and told them I'll be expecting refund in the 20 days as they offered or the 7 days as per EU261

15th Jun , calendar set for opening SCC case. I'll give the extra week.

Like everyone else here that opened a SCC case.
I received an email today (day 15 of submitting claim) from SCC as follows:

I am forwarding a Notice of Dispute that I have received from solicitors acting for Ryanair.
As they will not agree to pay your claim do you want to withdraw your claim or do you want it to proceed to a Court hearing ?
Please note the following points regarding a Court hearing ;
1. you must attend the hearing in person (go to WWW.COURTS.IE and refer to Small Claims Procedure and Failure to Resolve a Claim)
2. you will have to pay your own expenses associated with attending the Court hearing (go to WWW.COURTS.IE and refer to Small Claims Procedure then Introduction and Types of Claims Dealt with)
3. it is not possible to choose your own hearing date.
This is similar to response everyone has received from the Small claims court.
Unfortunately I’m not in. Position to go to the courts as like I the West.
I have now requested a Charge Bank from Bank of Ireland so ��that I’m successful with them. Will keep ye updated

paddy19 · 15-05-2020 10:05pm

golfrules wrote: »

.
This is similar to response everyone has received from the Small claims court.
Unfortunately I’m not in. Position to go to the courts as like I the West.
I have now requested a Charge Bank from Bank of Ireland so ��that I’m successful with them. Will keep ye updated

This is really a game of who blinks first.
They will more than likely payup just before the case.

There is absolutely no point in Ryanair going to court for a case they will definitely loose.

You can always write a nice email to the Registrar a day before the court date saying that you have decided not to travel.

One thought, there is a possibility that the courts will allow video link in the future.

You really have nothing to loose by opting for a court hearing.
It also keeps the pressure on Ryanair.

Hopefully Bank of Ireland who are doing a really good job on chargeback will come through for you.

limabromac · 15-05-2020 10:45pm

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/frustrated-airline-passengers-left-with-little-option-but-to-go-to-court-for-refunds-999827.html

ratracer · 16-05-2020 10:20am

I reckon the SCC is going to get an awful lot busier over the next couple of months. But if you’re not prepared to turn up in court, why waste their time??

My AL flights are booked for July 2nd, I’ll be over €1k in the hole so I will be going down SCC route after this date, and even though I live in Galway, if I’m summoned to court in Swords, I will travel in the day! I think I’d get great satisfaction out of turning up, which is something the airlines obviously reckon most claimants won’t do, and being awarded MY money by the courts!

paddy19 · 16-05-2020 12:54pm

ratracer wrote: »

I reckon the SCC is going to get an awful lot busier over the next couple of months. But if you’re not prepared to turn up in court, why waste their time??

My AL flights are booked for July 2nd, I’ll be over €1k in the hole so I will be going down SCC route after this date, and even though I live in Galway, if I’m summoned to court in Swords, I will travel in the day! I think I’d get great satisfaction out of turning up, which is something the airlines obviously reckon most claimants won’t do, and being awarded MY money by the courts!

Go on ya if you can get to Swords, but other folk may not have that flexibility.
It's the one area I think needs changing with SCC.
Why should the customer have to go to the court where the company is registered.
An obvious alternative would be video evidence.

Agreeing claims on the steps of the court is standard practice for legal eagles!
So the courts are well used to it.

Once you have invested your €25 you might as well sweat the Airline out.
At least you have forced the airline to engage in expensive legal support.

Muahahaha · 16-05-2020 6:51pm

ShatterProof wrote: »

from their chat,

Due to social distancing set up by the government, our refund teams must work from home, and because of this they have limited access to customers personal financial information.

I'm assuming they have VPNs and proper security measures in place. Their explanation doesn't hold water.

And then to cap it all off yesterday they announced that they are making 250 office staff redundant

Ryanair said it is cutting more than 250 jobs at its offices in Dublin, Stansted, Madrid and Wroclaw. It said the job cuts will be made through a combination of contracts ending, resignations and redundancies.

"These people will not be required to return to work on 1 June, when the Ryanair offices reopen, due to the substantial decline in traffic the Ryanair Group Airlines is facing in 2020," the airline said in a statement.

Ryanair has operated less than 1% of its normal flight schedules during April, May and June and this week said that only 40% of its normal schedules would operate in July.
.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0515/1138597-ryanair-job-cuts/

Then there is this tidbit

For the full year, Ryanair said it now expects to carry less than 100 million passengers, over 35% lower than the more than 155 million target for the year ended March 2021

So thats 55 million less passengers for the year. If you assumed 30% were already booked in advance and assigned an averge of 120 euro per return ticket that would be 16 million people who collectively have 1.9 billion euro currently sitting in Ryanairs bank account. No wonder they don't want to issue the refunds that are due.

SweetCaliber · 16-05-2020 9:49pm

ShatterProof wrote: »

from their chat,

Due to social distancing set up by the government, our refund teams must work from home, and because of this they have limited access to customers personal financial information.

I'm assuming they have VPNs and proper security measures in place. Their explanation doesn't hold water.

From a software point of view, very easily, in fact all they need to do is automate refunds of any flights that are cancelled.

But it is Ryanair, they do it manually on purpose, just another excuse to throw around.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 17-05-2020 5:56pm

Guys my flights are with Air France, who have a public statement issued, where they state that they won’t give cash refunds for non refundable tickets, even where it’s been cancelled by the airline. I booked those tickets through Expedia.

Who should I initiate my SCC case against?

Muahahaha · 17-05-2020 7:11pm

As both Air France and Expedia are based outside of the Irish state what you need to do is take the case to the European Small Claims Court. You do that through your local District Court and the form to do so is here, its costs 25 euro.
https://e-justice.europa.eu/dynform_intro_form_action.do?plang=en&idTaxonomy=177

The good news is that the process is all postal so you wont need to show up to any court here or in France. Theres a small chance that Air France could ask for your submission to be translated into French but Id say thats probably unlikely.

Have you asked Expedia for a refund and what did they say? Ultimately both companies have your money, AF obviously more than Expedia.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 17-05-2020 7:23pm

Thanks for that. No, as it stands I’ve just filled in the AF refund form. I received an email yesterday from Expedia, bulldozing a voucher through to me, “you don’t need to take any action” etc but it’s no use to me, I want the refund. With AF publicly saying they won’t refund, I just want to have my next move lined up ahead of the inevitable row.

I did take out the cancellation plan when booking, so that may bear fruit. If not then I’ll try a chargeback from MasterCard. And lastly, I’ll use your European court link.

Edit: reply from AF, already ignoring the possibility of a refund

Thank you for your e-mail, and apologies for the late reply. Due to the high amount of e-mails we received, related to the COVID-19 virus, we have been unable to answer your e-mail earlier.

Upon checking your booking I can see it is booked via a travel agent. Please contact your travel agent to inform about the possibilities of rebooking or a voucher.

Please stay safe and healthy.

irelandspurs · 18-05-2020 7:11am

Has anyone informed the scc they want to have a court date after Ryanair disputed the claim?

Muahahaha · 18-05-2020 5:49pm

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Thanks for that. No, as it stands I’ve just filled in the AF refund form. I received an email yesterday from Expedia, bulldozing a voucher through to me, “you don’t need to take any action” etc but it’s no use to me, I want the refund. With AF publicly saying they won’t refund, I just want to have my next move lined up ahead of the inevitable row.

I did take out the cancellation plan when booking, so that may bear fruit. If not then I’ll try a chargeback from MasterCard. And lastly, I’ll use your European court link.

Edit: reply from AF, already ignoring the possibility of a refund

Thank you for your e-mail, and apologies for the late reply. Due to the high amount of e-mails we received, related to the COVID-19 virus, we have been unable to answer your e-mail earlier.

Upon checking your booking I can see it is booked via a travel agent. Please contact your travel agent to inform about the possibilities of rebooking or a voucher.

Please stay safe and healthy.

Sounds like Mastercard is your best bet and then the European SCC if that doesnt work. Id would hope Mastercard should work because at the end of the day youve paid for something that you're no longer going to get. Thats exactly what the chargeback system operates for.

Your contract seems to be with Expedia though ask the court clerk about adding Air France to any claim as a notice party so your bases are covered. You dont want Expedia showing up and saying AF have your money and they're responsible and the court allowing it so its back to square one with 25 euro wasted. The clerk cant give legal advice but should be able to direct you towards making sure you capture the claim properly.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 18-05-2020 6:27pm

Yea, I initiated that chargeback today after both AF and Expedia told me to get lost. Expedia were apologetic and suggested the chargeback route, but AF have the money and are determined to hang onto it.

The only slight issue I can see is that the chargeback is for a partial amount. The hotel booking was refunded no hassle, but the flights are obviously still outstanding.

paddy19 · 18-05-2020 6:57pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Sounds like Mastercard is your best bet and then the European SCC if that doesnt work. Id would hope Mastercard should work because at the end of the day youve paid for something that you're no longer going to get. Thats exactly what the chargeback system operates for.

Your contract seems to be with Expedia though ask the court clerk about adding Air France to any claim as a notice party so your bases are covered. You dont want Expedia showing up and saying AF have your money and they're responsible and the court allowing it so its back to square one with 25 euro wasted. The clerk cant give legal advice but should be able to direct you towards making sure you capture the claim properly.

I agree that a chargeback to Mastercard is probably your best option.

Getting into French law might be considered brave!

DeKing · 18-05-2020 7:01pm

irelandspurs wrote:

Has anyone informed the scc they want to have a court date after Ryanair disputed the claim?

I did. Only got notification last week that Ryanair disputed the claim ðŸ™„

Muahahaha · 18-05-2020 7:06pm

Yeah even though your money could be divided up 80-20 between AF and Expedia I would think you can still get a chargeback for the full amount and then its up to Expedia to chase AF for their end. Hopefully works out for you as a chargeback it is the least troublesome way to resolve this rather than going down the Small Claims route.

Its a real mess of a situation. You've cast iron EU law supporting refunds yet airlines are just sticking their fingers in their ears pretending they dont have to refund you.

gzoladz · 19-05-2020 10:46am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah even though your money could be divided up 80-20 between AF and Expedia I would think you can still get a chargeback for the full amount and then its up to Expedia to chase AF for their end. Hopefully works out for you as a chargeback it is the least troublesome way to resolve this rather than going down the Small Claims route.

Its a real mess of a situation. You've cast iron EU law supporting refunds yet airlines are just sticking their fingers in their ears pretending they dont have to refund you.

Same situation for me, KLM and Expedia Ireland...they are promising a voucher, I tried a cashback and PTSB didn't want to help. It is circa EUR 3k as they are long haul flights for all my family so scc is not an option. I have logged a complaint with the regulator and will see what happens.

Muahahaha · 19-05-2020 7:36pm

gzoladz wrote: »

Same situation for me, KLM and Expedia Ireland...they are promising a voucher, I tried a cashback and PTSB didn't want to help. It is circa EUR 3k as they are long haul flights for all my family so scc is not an option. I have logged a complaint with the regulator and will see what happens.

Bad form of PTSB not to oblige, surely the chargeback system is for exactly situations where a company cannot deliver what you have paid for.

What regulator did you contact, travel agents or the airlines? The Commission for Aviation regulates airlines here but for KLM you would have to talk to the Dutch regulator found here https://www.ilent.nl/ French aviation regulator is here https://www.ecologique-solidaire.gouv.fr/ Neither site is available in english so use Google Translate. A full list of each EU members Aviation Regulator is found here
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/2004_261_national_enforcement_bodies.pdf

3,000 euro is a lot of money but the European Small Claims Court is still open to you as the limit of a claim there is 5,000. The local Irish Small Claims Court has a limit of 2,000 per claim.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 20-05-2020 8:57am

I initiated my chargeback online, I haven’t heard anything about it yet. I’m Mastercard/Ulster Bank so I’ll update when I’ve news.

Small Claims Court Thread

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