Small Claims Court Thread

silver2020

For those championing the SCC, you need to understand that you should only take a case where all other reasonable efforts have failed.

If you do not, the registrar can and in many case will refuse your case.

Both Aer Lingus and Ryanair have said they will provide refunds but that due ton the volume and staff restrictions, it will take time.

I believe Ryanair have 20million+ refunds to do.

Considering both have made public announcements confirming refunds will be made, albeit with a delay due to volumes, i can see the SCC rejecting these wen they come in.

Wuff Wuff

silver2020 wrote: »

For those championing the SCC, you need to understand that you should only take a case where all other reasonable efforts have failed.

If you do not, the registrar can and in many case will refuse your case.

Both Aer Lingus and Ryanair have said they will provide refunds but that due ton the volume and staff restrictions, it will take time.

I believe Ryanair have 20million+ refunds to do.

Considering both have made public announcements confirming refunds will be made, albeit with a delay due to volumes, i can see the SCC rejecting these wen they come in.

but Paddy on the internet says you will get your money back through SCC for e25

pc7

Wuff Wuff wrote: »

but Paddy on the internet says you will get your money back through SCC for e25

That's pretty uncalled for Paddy has been very helpful to people, its up to them if they want to do the SCC, nothing is guaranteed.

limabromac

Wuff Wuff wrote: »

but Paddy on the internet says you will get your money back through SCC for e25

Not a fair comment... The SCC is designed so people will get their money back...paddy has been very helpful in laying out all the info for people to choose which path they want to follow...

kris_2021

kris_2021 wrote: »

oh so I have to pay first to initiate case? Thought they will come back saying case is valid or something

i can only see this

paddy19

If you click on the "Case Not Initiated" tab you will get a screen which includes the events tab.

The Events screen will show you the status.

Bad news is Ryanair seem to fighting every case.

paddy19

silver2020 wrote: »

For those championing the SCC, you need to understand that you should only take a case where all other reasonable efforts have failed.

If you do not, the registrar can and in many case will refuse your case.

Both Aer Lingus and Ryanair have said they will provide refunds but that due ton the volume and staff restrictions, it will take time.

I believe Ryanair have 20million+ refunds to do.

Considering both have made public announcements confirming refunds will be made, albeit with a delay due to volumes, i can see the SCC rejecting these wen they come in.

Ryanair do not have 20M refunds to process.
They have 20 million cancellations.
Refunds per EU261 have to be requested by the customer.

EU261 8 1 (a) is clear, requested refunds should be processed within 7 days.

The airlines claim that this cannot be done automatically.

This is rubbish. A car rental comapny can process refunds within 24 hours.
Bookings are taken automatically without manual intervention.

Ryanair have stated on many occasions that refunds will be processed after the Covid has passed.

https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/useful-info/refund-voucher#!

The airlines are choosing to make it as difficult as possible to get refunds.

The Commission for (no) Aviation Regulation is allowing Ryanair to delay refunds
until Michael O'Leary decides the "crisis is over".

The SCC has no discretion to reject legitimate claims that comply with the law.

The simple question clarifies where the problem is:

If the regulator fined Ryanair a €100 a day for every requested refund not processed
how long would it take Michael O'Leary to act?

This is a cash grab and a failure of regulation.

Wuff Wuff

What happens if you go to court and the case is awarded in your favour, is it just a judgement iss made against Ryanair and MOL says he will pay "when the crisis is over" as he has said about the refunds

Do you then have to chase them again and again for payment? Or engage a sherif etc to pursue on your behalf at your own cost?

firemansam4

silver2020 wrote: »

For those championing the SCC, you need to understand that you should only take a case where all other reasonable efforts have failed.

If you do not, the registrar can and in many case will refuse your case.

Both Aer Lingus and Ryanair have said they will provide refunds but that due ton the volume and staff restrictions, it will take time.

I believe Ryanair have 20million+ refunds to do.

Considering both have made public announcements confirming refunds will be made, albeit with a delay due to volumes, i can see the SCC rejecting these wen they come in.

Ryanair have not been very clear cut at all about refunds.

For many they have promised a refund within x amount of days, then they retract that and state that they will process them as soon as possible.
Then out of the blue customers receive an email with a voucher instead and are then told they need to request the refund again via a link that doesn't work.

They have confused customers and have not been straight about the refund process In any way at all.
I myself have only just recently received confirmation that I am back in the refund queue many weeks after receiving the voucher email

atgate

So, I said I’d update:

Date Filed Event Description Case Party Days Filing Status
21 May 2020 Case Settled by Registrar Aer Lingus Limited
06 May 2020 Claim Issued 21 No Filing To View
06 May 2020 Claim Approved 21 No Filing To View
05 May 2020 Claim Reassigned 22 No Filing To View
04 May 2020 Claim Submitted 23 No Filing To View
04 May 2020 Case Preparing 23 No Filing To View

And.... 27 May refund in bank account from Aer Lingus. Sent to original card in two amounts; the admin charge and the rest.

Thanks to Paddy for the help here.

Interesting precedent for the Ryanair cases.

bonjurkes

paddy19 wrote: »

Refunds per EU261 have to be requested by the customer.

EU261 8 1 (a) is clear, requested refunds should be processed within 7 days.

And this is what Ryanair says to your EU261 request:


As per interpretive guidelines on EU passenger rights, announced by the EU commission on cancellations caused due to COVID 19, this is now classified as an extraordinary circumstance and compensation does not apply under EU261/2004.

We hope the above clarifies the matter and we have now closed your claim.

Yours sincerely,

Wuff Wuff

bonjurkes wrote: »

And this is what Ryanair says to your EU261 request:


As per interpretive guidelines on EU passenger rights, announced by the EU commission on cancellations caused due to COVID 19, this is now classified as an extraordinary circumstance and compensation does not apply under EU261/2004.

We hope the above clarifies the matter and we have now closed your claim.

Yours sincerely,

i think thats for compensation claims not just refunds

they direct people to use that form then dismiss it

limabromac

bonjurkes wrote: »

And this is what Ryanair says to your EU261 request:


As per interpretive guidelines on EU passenger rights, announced by the EU commission on cancellations caused due to COVID 19, this is now classified as an extraordinary circumstance and compensation does not apply under EU261/2004.

We hope the above clarifies the matter and we have now closed your claim.

Yours sincerely,

This is for compensation only after your flight has left and you get stranded somewhere due to cancelled or delayed ...
If you want a refund of flight cancelled then you follow the links that Ryanair send to you by email or by looking at manage my bookings on their app/website...

cuba1234

atgate wrote: »

Sure. Will do.

Delighted to say that all money owed has been returned to our credit card today. Have you received your refund yet?

cuba1234

paddy19 wrote: »

Aer Lingus questioned the refund request even thought I included their case number.

Then the paid up!

Maximum claim is €2,000 so can include multiple claims as long as your under this limit.

Make sure you include the email from Aer Lingus confirming your refund request.

Good luck, keep us updated on how you get on.

Paddy 19, just a quick note of thanks to you for all your advice and guideness with regard to Aerlingus and retrieving our refund via SCC. Our money was refunded today. Thanks so much.

atgate

cuba1234 wrote: »

Delighted to say that all money owed has been returned to our credit card today. Have you received your refund yet?

I did, thanks. Posted here earlier this morning

Drumpot

I’ve not actually receive any confirmation from Aer lingus that I requested a refund (weeks ago), should I follow this up?

I basically phoned up when my flight over to USA was cancelled and said I wanted a refund. They said they would automatically cancel the return flight and I might get a refund after a few months. (I’m fairness she was just being honest).

I’m thinking of going down the small claims route but don’t have any correspondence from them!

Muahahaha

Drumpot I would ring/email them again if they have said they will process a refund. Exhaust all avenues before going to the SCC, it might be just a glitch or oversight on their behalf and hopefully something easily sorted on the phone rather than spending 25 euro and form filling for the SCC.

atgate wrote: »

So, I said I’d update:

Date Filed Event Description Case Party Days Filing Status
21 May 2020 Case Settled by Registrar Aer Lingus Limited
06 May 2020 Claim Issued 21 No Filing To View
06 May 2020 Claim Approved 21 No Filing To View
05 May 2020 Claim Reassigned 22 No Filing To View
04 May 2020 Claim Submitted 23 No Filing To View
04 May 2020 Case Preparing 23 No Filing To View

And.... 27 May refund in bank account from Aer Lingus. Sent to original card in two amounts; the admin charge and the rest.

Thanks to Paddy for the help here.

Interesting precedent for the Ryanair cases.

Thats great news and shows how efficient the SCC can be in consumer disputes. It also shows the difference in culture between Aer Lingus who take the pragmatic decision and Ryanair who go out of their way to frustrate the customer.

Drumpot

Muahahaha wrote: »

Drumpot I would ring/email them again if they have said they will process a refund. Exhaust all avenues before going to the SCC, it might be just a glitch or oversight on their behalf and hopefully something easily sorted on the phone rather than spending 25 euro and form filling for the SCC.




Thats great news and shows how efficient the SCC can be in consumer disputes. It also shows the difference in culture between Aer Lingus who take the pragmatic decision and Ryanair who go out of their way to frustrate the customer.

Thanks, I actually got through earlier and they said it would be processed in next few days....

Albert12

Can I ask anybody who has put in a claim what way they did it and information they provided.

I booked flights in January, contacted the airline about 3 days before they were due to go out and on the phone they confirmed the flight wasnt going and offered a refund. They also said as part of the refund they would automatically cancel the return flight.

But I actually havent heard anything from them and have nothing physical on record regarding it. Its been taken off my Login account (no details of flight) and literally the only thing I have now is confirmation of booking (email) and flight cost.

Did anybody call back the Aerline (aer Lingus) to get an update on their refund. I am probably at week 3 now where I havent heard anything and have no record of what they are going to do.

atgate

Albert12 wrote: »

Can I ask anybody who has put in a claim what way they did it and information they provided.

This is what I submitted:

Flight cancelled, requested cash refund under EU261, did not receive refund in 7 days.
Flight booking code: XXXXXX
Names on booking: XXXX & XXXX
Flight # EIXXXX and EIXXXX
Flight Dates: XX Apr 2020 & XX Apr 2020
Available documentation: Flight Booking / Confirmation on Cancellation x 3 / Confirmation of Request for Refund under EU261 (reference XXXXXXXX) / Twitter Correspondence / Copy of Letter of Complaint.

cuba1234

atgate wrote: »

I did, thanks. Posted here earlier this morning

Delighted )

jonnny68

well done to anyone who got a refund from Aer Lingus via the SCC, strange how Ryanair are refusing and when it comes to the crunch Aer Lingus folded and refunded a poster on here, i wonder when it comes to actually going to Swords on the day will Ryanair buckle and just offer the refund, surely they haven't a leg to stand on anyway.

atgate

jonnny68 wrote: »

well done to anyone who got a refund from Aer Lingus via the SCC, strange how Ryanair are refusing and when it comes to the crunch Aer Lingus folded and refunded a poster on here, i wonder when it comes to actually going to Swords on the day will Ryanair buckle and just offer the refund, surely they haven't a leg to stand on anyway.

I wonder if Ryanair have made a strategic decision to challenge the SCC actions to drag it out. There'll be a wait for a sitting with the Registrar. Then when if a settlement can't be found a District Court Date will be set - who know's when that might be. At that point the actual hearing could be adjourned for many different reasons to later dates. By that stage it could be 2021.

paddy19

atgate wrote: »

I wonder if Ryanair have made a strategic decision to challenge the SCC actions to drag it out. There'll be a wait for a sitting with the Registrar. Then when if a settlement can't be found a District Court Date will be set - who know's when that might be. At that point the actual hearing could be adjourned for many different reasons to later dates. By that stage it could be 2021.

I don't think there is going to be any sitting with the Registrar.
I think that this meeting is only used when there is some chance of an agreement.

It will probably go straight to the District Court in the Autumn at the earliest.
Adjournments would not be a normal feature of the SCC.
This is a fairly straight forward case despite Ryanair's kitchen sink defence.
Possibility they would pay up on the day.

There is of course also a possibility that Ryanair will appeal if they loose.

Chargeback and www.flightrights.ie look like better options with Ryanair.

Muahahaha

atgate wrote: »

I wonder if Ryanair have made a strategic decision to challenge the SCC actions to drag it out. There'll be a wait for a sitting with the Registrar. Then when if a settlement can't be found a District Court Date will be set - who know's when that might be. At that point the actual hearing could be adjourned for many different reasons to later dates. By that stage it could be 2021.

Ryanairs refusal to refund definitely seems to be a strategy going by what the Guardian reported what is happening in the UK

Ryanair is the worst major airline for refunding British customers whose flights have been cancelled during the coronavirus pandemic, with more than eight out of 10 people still waiting for their money back, according to figures from Which?.

The airline’s failure to pay refunds, in line with passengers’ legal rights, contrasted sharply with British Airways, said Which? It found that 84% of Ryanair customers it surveyed have not received a refund as requested, compared with 23% at British Airways and 19% at another low-cost airline, Jet2.

Refunds are also being processed slowly at easyJet, with 60% of customers still waiting for their money back, according to the consumer group.

Furthermore Ryanair is basically saying that they will give refunds "once this unprecedented crisis is over", whatever that means :rolleyes:

In a statement, Ryanair said it would offer refunds – but customers may have to wait until the coronavirus crisis was over.

“The process time for cash refunds is taking longer due to the fact we are having to process 10,000 times the usual volume of cancellations and have fewer staff available due to social distancing measures,” the airline said.

“Customers who choose not to accept a free [booking] move or voucher will be refunded in due course, once this unprecedented crisis is over.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/may/28/ryanair-worst-airline-for-flight-cancellation-refunds-finds-which-uk-customers-coronavirus

Mad Benny

“The process time for cash refunds is taking longer due to the fact we are having to process 10,000 times the usual volume of cancellations and have fewer staff available due to social distancing measures,” the airline said.

Has anyone challenged this?

When a flight is booked and paid for by credit card does Ryanair manually process it? No, it's automated. The refund process, I presume, is also automated. On any given year Ryanair has thousands of refunds to process. Remember the strikes last year when they cancelled 190 flights in one day?

I attended a presentation by the Ryanair Chief Technology Officer a few years back. They have excellent IT systems and well resourced agile teams. It's highly unlikely that manual processing is required for cancellations. They focus on eliminating unnecessary costs. Processing a refund is no more difficult than processing the original payment.

I am a Software Developer. Last year my team implemented a SWIFT payment system.

paddy19

Mad Benny wrote: »

Has anyone challenged this?

When a flight is booked and paid for by credit card does Ryanair manually process it? No, it's automated. The refund process, I presume, is also automated. On any given year Ryanair has thousands of refunds to process. Remember the strikes last year when they cancelled 190 flights in one day?

I attended a presentation by the Ryanair Chief Technology Officer a few years back. They have excellent IT systems and well resourced agile teams. It's highly unlikely that manual processing is required for cancellations. They focus on eliminating unnecessary costs. Processing a refund is no more difficult than processing the original payment.

I am a Software Developer. Last year my team implemented a SWIFT payment system.

Absolutely this refunds cannot be automated line is rubbish.
It's just an excuse to keep the interest free loan scheme going.

The really sad part is that the Commission for (no) Aviation Regulation swallowed
this crap hook, line and social distancing without asking anyone, like yourself,
if what O'Leary said had any basis in fact.

SweetCaliber

Mad Benny wrote: »

Has anyone challenged this?

When a flight is booked and paid for by credit card does Ryanair manually process it? No, it's automated. The refund process, I presume, is also automated. On any given year Ryanair has thousands of refunds to process. Remember the strikes last year when they cancelled 190 flights in one day?

I attended a presentation by the Ryanair Chief Technology Officer a few years back. They have excellent IT systems and well resourced agile teams. It's highly unlikely that manual processing is required for cancellations. They focus on eliminating unnecessary costs. Processing a refund is no more difficult than processing the original payment.

I am a Software Developer. Last year my team implemented a SWIFT payment system.

Its a cover story so they don't have to pay people back in a hurry. Im sure they do have the software in place to automate the refunds. Despicable act but I'm not surprised with them tbh.

Muahahaha

Of course its an excuse,just look at the refund levels of the other airlines above

British Airways 23% still waiting on a refund
Jet 2 has 19% still waiting
Ryanair has 84% still waiting.

Says it all when other airlines are dealing with refunds under the same circumstances that Ryanair are