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The Joker movie - starring Joaquin Phoenix (MOD: May contain Spoilers)

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    #1262
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    one armed dwarf wrote: »
    In either case if you subscribe to the idea that Hollywood is a leftist echo chamber then why would they laud Joker if it was apparently against their political persuasions? lol

    Remember how in the film the laid off counselor told Arthur how nobody cared about people like them, and the investment banker ****heads were described as some of Gotham's best? It's a film about how being below a certain income level makes you invisible as a person, imo, and this isn't a fair way to build a society.

    This isn't a very controversial position for a film to take if you're a leftist lol

    Yeah, I don't even know what it is about Joker that's supposed to be this call to arms for those kicking against "liberalism". The most political Joker gets is basically as a vague "eat the rich" narrative, and lamenting the cutting of important public resources - sounds kinda leftist to me ;)


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    #1263
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Why don't you know name some top level executives who are Democrat if you say there's a bias, and I'll take your point, but the box office speaks volumes. Blockbusters are about as safe a product as you can make - that's half the problem with the system these days..

    You mean guys like Harvey Weinstein, Robert Zemeckis, James Cameron, Ron Howard, Kathleen Kennedy

    It's kind of funny that you're denying that Hollywood is overwhelmingly liberal because they like films to make money. It's some Ruth Coppinger level thinking.


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    #1264
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Bambi wrote: »
    You mean guys like Harvey Weinstein, Robert Zemeckis, James Cameron, Ron Howard, Kathleen Kennedy

    It's kind of funny that you're denying that Hollywood is overwhelmingly liberal because they like films to make money. It's some Ruth Coppinger level thinking.

    No, that's not what I'm saying. What I said originally is that people view Hollywood how they want to see it, usually injecting their own antagonisms or biases. Democrats & liberals attack Hollywood for being "too white", while US Republicans & conservative attack Hollywood for being "liberal". Swings and roundabouts, so it goes.

    Me? I point at the money cos that's the ultimate motivator and I point at the blockbuster output or importance of the foreign markets, because at the end of the day that's the only thing you can say for certain shows any hand. Hollywood sure are liberal when it comes to following a trend, cos ... ya know, it can make 'em money. Not sure how you can say otherwise, the Four Quadrants are well understood. As is the relative conservatism of those foreign markets

    Does Weinstein's political allegiances bleed through into his output? That's what you're saying I guess, his main predilection to me seemed to be cutting movies to fit multiplexes without directorial consent (see his battle with Snowpiercer on that). What "conservative" views had the Weinstein Company held back over the years that you feel needed more airtime? And Kathleen Kennedy is just a useful strawman for all those aggrieved by the Star Wars movies.

    You seem to be insinuating dark conspiracy of American Liberal values. I don't see it, outside of Actors waffling at awards, a habit we're well used to laughing at and pouring scorn on. And I certainly don't see any pushback in Joker. The Guardian might have squawked but the end product is as Left Wing as it can be. It said public healthcare was important, and that The Rich were class run amok. That's very ... yah know ... Lefty :D


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    #1265
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,094 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    I mean, the mainstream Democratic Party is basically centre-right by Irish and British standards anyway (the actual progressive / leftist wing remains a mere minority), so membership doesn’t exactly make one a raging leftist, despite what a certain breed of perpetually testy American commentator might insist.

    *please insert Joker laugh here to keep this post vaguely on topic*


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    #1266
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Yeah, I don't even know what it is about Joker that's supposed to be this call to arms for those kicking against "liberalism". The most political Joker gets is basically as a vague "eat the rich" narrative, and lamenting the cutting of important public resources - sounds kinda leftist to me ;)
    From what I have gathered, the "alt right" (or whatever) have taken the film to their hearts because it depicts a white man forgotten by society, the kinda guy who'd be viewed as an "incel", and who because of this rejection/disenfranchisement/ridicule is pushed over the edge, and the message is taken as "See? This is what could happen".

    Not completely off the mark imo.


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    #1267
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,910 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    johnny_ultimate wrote: »
    I mean, the mainstream Democratic Party is basically centre-right by Irish and British standards anyway (the actual progressive / leftist wing remains a mere minority), so membership doesn’t exactly make one a raging leftist, despite what a certain breed of perpetually testy American commentator might insist.

    *please insert Joker laugh here to keep this post vaguely on topic*

    I've always found the idea of calling the Democrats "left wing" or even "socialist" hilarious. In other normal countries, they'd be the conservative ticket. :pac:

    America has no left wing political party.

    It has to be said though, that one of the absolute worst things the internet has been responsible for is the proliferation of shitty, childish, US political gibberish throughout the western world. Their dumbed down rhetoric gets parroted by the naive and stupid in nearly every discussion these days.


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    #1268
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,910 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Raconteuse wrote: »
    From what I have gathered, the "alt right" (or whatever) have taken the film to their hearts because it depicts a white man forgotten by society.

    Honestly, that's baffling if this is the case.

    And, frankly, there are other, and far better, films that have depicted men/women forgotten by society.

    Plus, Arthur isn't any kind of hero and shouldn't be to anyone. The guy's a bloody loon from the offset. He's not somebody that should be exalted or admired.


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    #1269
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    From an American's point of view, the Democrats would be liberals and left-leaning to be fair; but for Irish folk to co-opt the attitued of sneering and condemnation of that American context is just embarrassing. That "incel" is even know in this parlance here is a sad state of affairs - though thankfully I've seen no serious use of it. Yet.

    By comparison, Ireland's an incredibly progressive, openly liberal country and most in America would see us as drippingly socialist (if not plain satanic given our voting on the marriage / abortion referenda), yet here we have Irish folk getting uppity over the Paper Liberals in Hollywood for vocalising levels of "liberalism" that Ireland just takes for granted.

    Todd Phillips is laughing all the way to the bank.


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    #1270
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,910 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    pixelburp wrote: »
    From an American's point of view, the Democrats would be liberals and left-leaning to be fair; but for Irish folk to co-opt the attitued of sneering and condemnation of that American context is just embarrassing. That "incel" is even know in this parlance here is a sad state of affairs - though thankfully I've seen no serious use of it. Yet.

    By comparison, Ireland's an incredibly progressive, openly liberal country and most in America would see us as drippingly socialist (if not plain satanic given our voting on the marriage / abortion referenda), yet here we have Irish folk getting uppity over the Paper Liberals in Hollywood for vocalising levels of "liberalism" that Ireland just takes for granted.

    Todd Phillips is laughing all the way to the bank.

    To be honest Pix, fuck America's POV.

    From a realistic POV, politically they are the centre right, because they are wedded to big business, Wall Street and capitalism in its worst form and aren't remotely interested in tackling the egregious imbalances that such support engenders. There's nothing that left wing about the Democratic party.

    Some of their members may talk the talk, like Warren "promising" to have a go at Wall Street. But Trump also did that and I have no doubt that Warren will do as much about it as Donald did.

    Perhaps the Democrats wouldn't be as fast to hand over billions in tax breaks for the incredibly wealthy as Trump was. But that wouldn't make them any more a party of the left.

    As for the deplorable spread of American internet speak throughout online (and offline) conversations, I can only agree. My skin crawls every time I see such drivel written.


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    #1271
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Honestly, that's baffling if this is the case.

    And, frankly, there are other, and far better, films that have depicted men/women forgotten by society.

    Plus, Arthur isn't any kind of hero and shouldn't be to anyone. The guy's a bloody loon from the offset. He's not somebody that should be exalted or admired.
    Alex Jones probably said it, and thus the bandwagon was in motion. I do think there's a point about disenfranchised men though.

    But yeah, "woke", "SJW", misuse of "snowflake" and "virtue signalling" - irritates my eyes and brain.


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    #1272
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,094 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Tony EH wrote: »
    To be honest Pix, fuck America's POV.

    From a realistic POV, politically they are the centre right, because they are wedded to big business, Wall Street and capitalism in its worst form and aren't remotely interested in tackling the egregious imbalances that such support engenders. There's nothing that left wing about the Democratic party.

    Precisely. That’s why the nonsense moaning about Democrats being the ‘radical left’ is so absurd, even beyond the absurd standards of American political discourse. The socially liberal, economically conservative party here is Fine Gael (even Fianna Fail - a bit less socially liberal, mind) and across the pond the Tories - and nobody with a shred of political awareness would describe them as being of the ‘left’. Sure, Elizabeth Warren is to the left of Joe Biden, and Bernie Sanders, AOC and ‘the Squad’ are left-wing by any standard (although still closer to the centre than left-wing figures in most western democracies)... but they’re exceptions. Heck, Bernie Sanders technically is an independent :pac:

    Anyway, I’m not really sure either what Joker has to say about disenfranchised men - the character is such a caricature and psychopath that the light social commentary and criticism in the film doesn’t exactly suddenly make him a sympathetic, tragic figure. I can point to something like Sorry I Missed You as a film that really explores the impact of system failures on a working-class white man and his family... or even to Parasite as a film that mischievously toys with such class relations in a more overt and thrilling way. But as I’ve said a few times in this thread, Joker is ultimately a comic book origin story with at best/worst some light, largely inoffensive social commentary - its position as some sort of political lightning rod is baffling to me based on the text itself


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    #1273
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    pixelburp wrote: »
    No, that's not what I'm saying. What I said originally is that people view Hollywood how they want to see it, usually injecting their own antagonisms or biases. Democrats & liberals attack Hollywood for being "too white", while US Republicans & conservative attack Hollywood for being "liberal". Swings and roundabouts, so it goes.


    It's not bias, its just reality, most people take it as a given. Which is why you won't name Hollywood players who are openly conservative or Republican. They're rare exceptions and they tend to keep their mouth shut.

    It's a bit like pretending that the media didnt go after Joker sight unseen because of some weird woke nonsense about white men/incel terrorists/nazziiis

    All the denial just makes you look a bit silly


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    #1274
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Bambi wrote: »
    It's not bias, its just reality, most people take it as a given. Which is why you won't name Hollywood players who are openly conservative or Republican. They're rare exceptions and they tend to keep their mouth shut.

    It's a bit like pretending that the media didnt go after Joker sight unseen because of some weird woke nonsense about white men/incel terrorists/nazziiis

    All the denial just makes you look a bit silly

    Uh, I didn't pretend, I mention the asinine media outrage in the very post you quoted so... shrug? You're conflating clickbait outrage with some Hollywood conspiracy so silliness is obviously contagious :)

    Heck. I'm still waiting to hear how and where Weinstein let his political bias influence his producing work. Your claim of bias amounts to his relationship with the Clintons, therefore dem liberals are in charge, unless you know more? Somehow attuned to executives personal politics? Or indeed how Joker somehow kicks against that?

    Hollywood is just another large lobbying group in the US political establishment, albeit with a stronger Chinese influence via Tencent these days. You'd want to be spectacularly naive to think that lobbying is in one direction. No more than the gun lobby is exclusively funding republican politicians.

    And as already said, the Democrats are Irish Centre Right; stop adopting American cultural pejoratives to get outraged over what amounts to default Irish culture.

    Man. I tell you, great longevity got out of a vaguely anarchic movie about a comicbook clown villain, rebaged as a polemic against the rich.


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    #1275
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Honestly, that's baffling if this is the case.

    And, frankly, there are other, and far better, films that have depicted men/women forgotten by society.

    Plus, Arthur isn't any kind of hero and shouldn't be to anyone. The guy's a bloody loon from the offset. He's not somebody that should be exalted or admired.

    I know. Like, when
    he shoots the guys on the subway. Those guys were gigantic arseholes for sure but when he shot them, I wasn’t like “Take that!”. I was thinking “Aaaaaah, they didn’t deserve to die there, Arthur”. So, definitely not a hero if that’s what they were going for.


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    #1276
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,010 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Honestly, that's baffling if this is the case.

    And, frankly, there are other, and far better, films that have depicted men/women forgotten by society.

    Plus, Arthur isn't any kind of hero and shouldn't be to anyone. The guy's a bloody loon from the offset. He's not somebody that should be exalted or admired.

    I don't think them relating to Joker due to him being forgotten by society, more seeing him as someone who is fighting back against society.

    The fact that Joker is a loon wouldn't be an issue for them, when they live in a world of Deepstate, Pizzagate, Qanon nonsense that they and their peers subscribe.

    I don't think many really admire or relate to him, many just want to associate themselves to the movie and any success it had because it annoyed a few clickbaity 'liberal' sources and it is why they keep trying to make the 'controversy' a thing. Many parts of American politics, and some Irish posters that you'll see here, just like and push whatever they believe annoys the other side, even when in real terms it doesn't.


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    #1277
    kaisersose77
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭kaisersose77


    Great Video (shows clips from the movie so not for those who havent watched it yet).



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    #1278
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    . Many parts of American politics, and some Irish posters that you'll see here, just like and push whatever they believe annoys the other side, even when in real terms it doesn't.

    I couldn't give a crap about politics. You boyos have been discussing politics off topic over the last couple of pages with no provocation so I guess this film cuts deeper than some of ye would like to admit.


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    #1279
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    The White Wolf wrote: »
    I couldn't give a crap about politics. You boyos have been discussing politics off topic over the last couple of pages with no provocation so I guess this film cuts deeper than some of ye would like to admit.

    I honestly don't think it does, but for the time being the film and the culture around it are intrinsically linked; particularly in light of its various awards nominations. It's message is hardly that outrageous: the rich suck and America should probably fund more mental services (to be fair, that apparently IS a forgotten topic over there, I believe mental health is a nightmare) - but hardly "dangerous" as clickbait peddlers had us believe, or a rallying cry against PC culture as others might persuade. Obviously some bought into it with cinemas actually taking precautions; hardly the first moral panic in entertainment history. Alfred Hitchcock is looking down on us going "pffh, amateurs".

    Ultimately it's a handsome movie that plays its influences on its sleeve, is more shallow than it could have been, and thanks to hysteria got a leg up in its marketing thanks to the Barbara Streisand Effect. A billion dollars later and here we are.

    I've said it before but I'll be interested to see how this film ages, once the contemporaneous context disappears and we just review the movie. Or if indeed it'll be considered a vanguard of a new wave of superhero movies.


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    #1280
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,010 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    The White Wolf wrote: »
    I couldn't give a crap about politics. You boyos have been discussing politics off topic over the last couple of pages with no provocation so I guess this film cuts deeper than some of ye would like to admit.

    My point stands true outside of politics, a growing proportion of individuals seem to get more joy out believing something annoys people they don't like rather than actually enjoying the thing for its own merits.

    One of your posts is a great example of several that have appeared in this thread.
    The White Wolf wrote: »
    Joker leads the line with most BAFTA nominations. Will forever love this film for the endless amount of salt it keeps provoking:

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/jan/07/colossally-overrated-joker-beneficiary-of-bafta-awards-groupthink


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    #1281
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    My point stands true outside of politics, a growing proportion of individuals seem to get more joy out believing something annoys people they don't like rather than actually enjoying the thing for its own merits.

    One of your posts is a great example of several that have appeared in this thread.

    Can't argue with you there pal, that's the absurd arguing I will not let go.


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    #1282
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Tony EH wrote: »
    I've always found the idea of calling the Democrats "left wing" or even "socialist" hilarious. In other normal countries, they'd be the conservative ticket. :pac:

    America has no left wing political party.

    It has to be said though, that one of the absolute worst things the internet has been responsible for is the proliferation of shitty, childish, US political gibberish throughout the western world. Their dumbed down rhetoric gets parroted by the naive and stupid in nearly every discussion these days.

    Oh indeed. I have a few online American acquaintances who consider themselves liberal and at times they have all but called me ‘comrade’ for saying some very socialist-lite things, like stuff that I didn’t think was particularly socialist. :D


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    #1283
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    I don't think them relating to Joker due to him being forgotten by society, more seeing him as someone who is fighting back against society.

    The fact that Joker is a loon wouldn't be an issue for them, when they live in a world of Deepstate, Pizzagate, Qanon nonsense that they and their peers subscribe.

    I don't think many really admire or relate to him, many just want to associate themselves to the movie and any success it had because it annoyed a few clickbaity 'liberal' sources and it is why they keep trying to make the 'controversy' a thing. Many parts of American politics, and some Irish posters that you'll see here, just like and push whatever they believe annoys the other side, even when in real terms it doesn't.
    Exactly this. Tony, Pix and Johnny have been writing about how it bewilders them but there's nothing to be bewildered by! (Not having a go btw).


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    #1284
    peteeeed
    Registered Users Posts: 13,563 ✭✭✭✭peteeeed


    https://twitter.com/aikenpromotions/status/1224618889692303361?s=20


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    #1285
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    peteeeed wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/aikenpromotions/status/1224618889692303361?s=20

    From memory the score is a lot of strings and weird steely percussion, be interesting to see how they manage live.


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    #1286
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Bambi wrote: »
    From memory the score is a lot of strings and weird steely percussion, be interesting to see how they manage live.

    Also I assume the ERU will be on standy for handling all the incel terrorists :o


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    #1287
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/feb/02/1917-deserves-baftass-thunderous-applause-joker-does-not

    Back again and calling himself a refusenik.....gob****e more like. :pac:


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    #1288
    Gavin1986
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭Gavin1986


    Joker shook me to the core. This film has a very deep meaning, IMHO, precisely because of Joaquin’s part. But have to say, Todd Philips also nailed it! They created a great movie that gives pause for reflection...


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    #1289
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    The White Wolf wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/feb/02/1917-deserves-baftass-thunderous-applause-joker-does-not

    Back again and calling himself a refusenik.....gob****e more like. :pac:

    Self-awareness bypass by Bradshaw there, saying that others aren’t shy in giving their opinion on Joker.


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    #1290
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,910 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Gavin1986 wrote: »
    Joker shook me to the core. This film has a very deep meaning, IMHO, precisely because of Joaquin’s part. But have to say, Todd Philips also nailed it! They created a great movie that gives pause for reflection...

    Jesus...I wish I saw the film you saw.


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    #1291
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Oh, we're quoting Peter Bradshaw again? It's like Hate Watching, but for film critics :D


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