The Joker movie - starring Joaquin Phoenix (MOD: May contain Spoilers)

pixelburp

cian68 wrote: »

How would you know the merits of twitter if you've never used it?

Used, no. Exposed to its output? Well it's hard to avoid these days when every brainfarted controversy or outrage comes from the drains of Twitter. Or indeed when news outlets pass off said farts as news.

If there's a good side to the service I'm all ears, but it seems like a slurry pit of feedback loops and soapboxing. Never used hard drugs either but feel like I don't need to try

The White Wolf

pixelburp wrote: »

Used, no. Exposed to its output? Well it's hard to avoid these days when every brainfarted controversy or outrage comes from the drains of Twitter. Or indeed when news outlets pass off said farts as news.

If there's a good side to the service I'm all ears, but it seems like a slurry pit of feedback loops and soapboxing. Never used hard drugs either but feel like I don't need to try

What does it say about boards when most of its content on forums such as this one and AH is fuelled by that intellectual garbage.

As you said yourself it's hard to ignore even if you're not active on the platforms, as the likes of Reddit and Twitter are hotbeds for leaks and official marketing. Indeed, the reason this thread is so big is because people were happy to discuss the controversies that started on Twitter.

pixelburp

The White Wolf wrote: »

What does it say about boards when most of its content on forums such as this one and AH is fuelled by that intellectual garbage.

As you said yourself it's hard to ignore even if you're not active on the platforms, as the likes of Reddit and Twitter are hotbeds for leaks and official marketing. Indeed, the reason this thread is so big is because people were happy to discuss the controversies that started on Twitter.

I think it just says that human beings like a good moan and we're all easily led by the urge to rubber neck or chew the fat on petty outrage. Predates the internet but Twitter has weaponised it and made it a cottage(?) Industry.

I'm not ignorant to the fact it's a common source of leaks, news or announcements and I'm totally fine with that, but you yourself pointed towards "critics" and what passes for criticism or debate on Twitter. That's the line in the sand for me. There it's a total insincere garbage fire and more fool us for getting sucked into the spiral or taking the utterances of outrage merchants as debate. It cheapens the whole subject really, including discussion here IMO.

More so when said outrage is coming from American Twitter corners; it's tedious and depressing reading folks here regurgitate American euphemisms, pejoratives and outrage over subjects that are solely the insecurities of that country.

johnny_ultimate

Can Twitter be a horrible, ugly place? Of course - it’s the internet in 2020. Equally, having a place where so many great artists and writers just shoot the **** is IMO a wonderful resource: use it correctly (easier said than done with so many bad forces out there, granted) and it can be a genuine source of insight, laughs and great conversation. It wouldn’t be a stretch at all for me to say I simply wouldn’t have discovered quite a few films I’m extremely fond of if it wasn’t for casual tweets or a few folk online going to bat for them. The two Bread Factory films were among my favourites of last year - I’d have forgotten if not completely missed that they existed if Matt Zoller Seitz hadn’t retweeted his review of them a couple of times.

And I think that gets back to why I still put so much value in (good) professional critics, who do have the time and resources to watch a hell of a lot of films and help filter through the noise. They go to bat for the weird, ambitious, small and experimental films that don’t get a lot of love and attention. The good ones take the time to dig into why they think a film works or doesn’t - a few exceptions aside, to me a well-written review will almost always offer me a more interesting, substantive perspective on a film than anywhere else.

Of course there are bad critics. Of course I don’t always agree with consensus. Even writers I like offer up bad takes from time to time. Such is the nature of criticism - a bunch of individual people offering their own perspectives. Film is better with them as far as I’m concerned.

silverharp

it should probably get an award for most misreported movie before it came out movie

The White Wolf

pixelburp wrote: »

I think it just says that human beings like a good moan and we're all easily led by the urge to rubber neck or chew the fat on petty outrage. Predates the internet but Twitter has weaponised it and made it a cottage(?) Industry.

I'm not ignorant to the fact it's a common source of leaks, news or announcements and I'm totally fine with that, but you yourself pointed towards "critics" and what passes for criticism or debate on Twitter. That's the line in the sand for me. There it's a total insincere garbage fire and more fool us for getting sucked into the spiral or taking the utterances of outrage merchants as debate. It cheapens the whole subject really, including discussion here IMO.

More so when said outrage is coming from American Twitter corners; it's tedious and depressing reading folks here regurgitate American euphemisms, pejoratives and outrage over subjects that are solely the insecurities of that country.

If you think these issues are specific to American culture you might want to have a look at the likes of AH/Current Affairs or Pro Wrestling (for example of a mainly American piece of culture) forums. These buzzwords are creeping into our culture.

mikhail

The White Wolf wrote: »

If you think these issues are specific to American culture you might want to have a look at the likes of AH/Current Affairs or Pro Wrestling (for example of a mainly American piece of culture) forums. These buzzwords are creeping into our culture.

That's the price of not having our own language - our culture is strongly influenced by the larger Anglophone populations, for better and worse.

pixelburp

The White Wolf wrote: »

If you think these issues are specific to American culture you might want to have a look at the likes of AH/Current Affairs or Pro Wrestling (for example of a mainly American piece of culture) forums. These buzzwords are creeping into our culture.

I don't deny they're creeping in here, and I resent it. I do indeed see the cultural markers in other fora here and think it's cringe inducing reading Irish folk deride others as "liberals" and use other American pejoratives.

Ironicname

peteeeed wrote:

if it winds up the gammons then thats a bonus

How embarrassing...

peteeeed

11 nominations , the most for this years Oscars

The White Wolf

peteeeed wrote: »

11 nominations , the most for this years Oscars

Twitter is full of Fury over it. It's both hilarious and concerning at the same time. I wonder do these fcukwits operate in the real world at all.

JP Liz V1

peteeeed wrote: »

11 nominations , the most for this years Oscars

I think Joaquin is a lock for the win but I'd love to see Todd take best director also plus best picture

MrStuffins

Crazy how people are so butt-hurt by this.

I wasn't really mad about Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and I know a lot of others weren't either. Where's the Twitter outrage over all those nominations? Oh right, there are no virtue signalling points to be scored by going against it.

Tarantino can't even get protested against anymore.

Foxtrol

Do people understand that you can choose who you follow on Twitter? I haven't come across anyone that I can describe as in a 'fury' or 'butt-hurt' over this.

At this stage it seems like some seek out opinion they don't agree with and then claim it is everywhere just so they can have a big old moan about it.

johnny_ultimate

Personally I think the inevitable point where the ‘outrage about the outrage about Joker’ overtook the actual ‘outrage about Joker’ in terms of volume a few months ago :pac:

The film grossed a billion dollars, won the Golden Lion, got plenty of decent to very good reviews, got generally positive audience response, and is drowning in awards nomination. The film has done exceedingly well for itself, and can take some people expressing their opinion that it isn’t particularly good (said, granted, as someone who didn’t think it was particularly good - but also a tier or two above your 1917s or JoJo Rabbits)

The White Wolf

Foxtrol wrote: »

Do people understand that you can choose who you follow on Twitter? I haven't come across anyone that I can describe as in a 'fury' or 'butt-hurt' over this.

At this stage it seems like some seek out opinion they don't agree with and then claim it is everywhere just so they can have a big old moan about it.

Wouldn't say I seek it out; if you searched Joker on Twitter yesterday though it was hard to avoid the harsh criticism; ranging from blaming the film for Little Women getting snubbed in the Best Director category to claiming JLO had a superior performance on Hustlers.

But how and ever, it just reminded me why I got off twitter for much of 2019. Think I'll give that another go as it admittedly winds me up, leading to as you pointed out me moaning.

Anyway, I think the film will do well in the technical categories, but can see Best Director and Picture going elsewhere. I think Phoenix will win Best Actor but at the same time Driver winning wouldn't shock me.

pixelburp

Yeah, I've spoken to a few people who have left or deleted their Twitter account because it's just a source of aggravation and winding ones self up on a daily basis. I know I know, it's my soapbox but I genuinely believe the service is a malignant force in Western culture, or an individuals psyche.

Single piece of advice given to me years ago in college, back before the era of social media & remains true to this day: if it stops being fun, then stop doing it. If something's just leaving you wound up, then it goes double White Wolf

Foxtrol

The White Wolf wrote: »

Wouldn't say I seek it out; if you searched Joker on Twitter yesterday though it was hard to avoid the harsh criticism; ranging from blaming the film for Little Women getting snubbed in the Best Director category to claiming JLO had a superior performance on Hustlers.

But how and ever, it just reminded me why I got off twitter for much of 2019. Think I'll give that another go as it admittedly winds me up, leading to as you pointed out me moaning.

Anyway, I think the film will do well in the technical categories, but can see Best Director and Picture going elsewhere. I think Phoenix will win Best Actor but at the same time Driver winning wouldn't shock me.

Searching is your mistake there. I find twitter great for getting information or opinion from sources that I follow but once you move outside that it becomes the wild west of opinions. If you're going to do search you can't assume what you read gives you any idea of what the general public feel about anything.

Most people wouldn't take a group of 5 weirdos on the street with protest signs to be proof of a groundswell of support against something and you need to have the same mindset with Twitter.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

I didn’t love Joker but I am quite amused at how butthurt the Guardian is over all the accolades and nominations it’s receiving. I mean, naturally they are entitled to their opinion and were far from the only publication to give it a less-than-glowing review but at some point, the foot-stamping must stop and you must accept that not everyone shares your view.

JP Liz V1

I hope it wins as many Oscars as possible, the uproar especially the big ones film, director and screenplay as Joaquin seems a lock to take best actor

one armed dwarf

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I didn’t love Joker but I am quite amused at how butthurt the Guardian is over all the accolades and nominations it’s receiving. I mean, naturally they are entitled to their opinion and were far from the only publication to give it a less-than-glowing review but at some point, the foot-stamping must stop and you must accept that not everyone shares your view.

Didn't the Guardian review it twice, one reviewer really liked it and another didn't if I recall. They do that with a lot of movies. I might be wrong though.

I find the narrative that lefties hate this film a bit weird, cause JOKER's politics seem very leftist anyway. It's a film about massive iniquity in wealth distribution and the Thomas Wayne sorts are a caricature of the 'pull yourself up' type of character who you often see voting Republican. That was my read on it anyway.

Doesn't mean that the film doesn't have problems. It's also possible to agree with some of the stuff it's trying to say and disagree with its ways of saying it

Dyr

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I didn’t love Joker but I am quite amused at how butthurt the Guardian is over all the accolades and nominations it’s receiving. I mean, naturally they are entitled to their opinion and were far from the only publication to give it a less-than-glowing review but at some point, the foot-stamping must stop and you must accept that not everyone shares your view.

It's fascinating to see that most entertainment journalism nowadays starts from a position of "Are you on our side?"

I think you're going to see more and more people in the entertainment fields get sick of having to police themselves constantly for fear that the intersectional stazi will ruin their careers and just go back to creating what they want.

Jokers success and Tarantino suffering no ill effects for his dismissal of the idiots who tried to make Margot Robbies quota of lines in OUATIH a human rights issue is showing them which way the wind is blowing.

MrStuffins

Foxtrol wrote: »

Do people understand that you can choose who you follow on Twitter? I haven't come across anyone that I can describe as in a 'fury' or 'butt-hurt' over this.

At this stage it seems like some seek out opinion they don't agree with and then claim it is everywhere just so they can have a big old moan about it.

Maybe you should seek out opinions different to your own in this case. The critics not being in your Twitter echo-chamber is not the same as critics not existing.

I don't even use Twitter. But i'm very aware of the criticism this film has faced.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

one armed dwarf wrote: »

Didn't the Guardian review it twice, one reviewer really liked it and another didn't if I recall. They do that with a lot of movies. I might be wrong though.

I find the narrative that lefties hate this film a bit weird, cause JOKER's politics seem very leftist anyway. It's a film about massive iniquity in wealth distribution and the Thomas Wayne sorts are a caricature of the 'pull yourself up' type of character who you often see voting Republican. That was my read on it anyway.

Doesn't mean that the film doesn't have problems. It's also possible to agree with some of the stuff it's trying to say and disagree with its ways of saying it

Yeah, that was the case. However, the guy who hates it really fucking hates it. He has bitched about it in probably five articles at this stage. Maybe more actually. Not just articles about the film itself but in every article about the various awards nominations.

I don’t really get the whole supposed politics of this film. I didn’t love the film but what I did like about it was what it had to say about how you can fall through the cracks if you have mental problems and are poor. I don’t know what’s supposed to be so controversial about the film.

pixelburp

Now wait now. It's also entirely possible that Joker isn't some great totem of pushback against culture wars, or whatever it is we're meant to be outraged about (or outraged over the outrage, to quote Johnny U), rather another example of the Barbara Streisand Effect still being very valid and very present in modern culture.

The run-up to the movie contained either pearl clutching about incels going wild (to which yeah, some outlets should hang their head), or Todd Phillips moaning that he couldn't make comedies anymore (cue the smart arses in the back wondering if ever made them in the first place), then following that, the kerfuffle when Warners stopped doing press interviews. The movie hadn't even come out, yet it was the talk of the town.

So of COURSE the film did great, pure idle curiosity to see what the fuss was about was always going to drive customers to the cinema. Now that's not to saying it accounts entirely for its success, or even to downplay the effect it had on those who DID enjoy it on its own terms - but Joker's success is as much because of a culmination in clickbait culture as it was being a unique spin on a Batman IP. There's nothing so new under the sun that Rubber Necking isn't still a thing.

Foxtrol

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I hope it wins as many Oscars as possible, the uproar especially the big ones film, director and screenplay as Joaquin seems a lock to take best actor

I'm still completely confused by this huge 'uproar' that people seem to think is so bad that they need to moan about it.

So far we've been pointed to you'll find it if you search on twitter and the Guardian newspaper, which seems to have a single journalist that has written a few articles about the movie.

If that is it then the 'uproar' is really all in your heads.

Foxtrol

MrStuffins wrote: »

Maybe you should seek out opinions different to your own in this case. The critics not being in your Twitter echo-chamber is not the same as critics not existing.

I don't even use Twitter. But i'm very aware of the criticism this film has faced.

I have plenty of opinions on my feed that I don't usually agree with, however I understand that a few people having a different opinion to me or critising something I like doesn't mean there is some sort of huge 'uproar' against it, like it is being made out to be in this instance with the Joker.

If anything it is the people who are making out there is a huge uproar that live in an echo chamber and cant deal with the opinions of others without playing the victim.

one armed dwarf

Yeah I've my own issues with the film, I've posted them already in here and don't want to go look for them. But I'm not outraged that this film has problems or got lots of nominations (although I'll admit I'm very surprised that it did)

Like what film doesn't have its critics?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

pixelburp wrote: »

Now wait now. It's also entirely possible that Joker isn't some great totem of pushback against culture wars, or whatever it is we're meant to be outraged about (or outraged over the outrage, to quote Johnny U), rather another example of the Barbara Streisand Effect still being very valid and very present in modern culture.

The run-up to the movie contained either pearl clutching about incels going wild (to which yeah, some outlets should hang their head), or Todd Phillips moaning that he couldn't make comedies anymore (cue the smart arses in the back wondering if ever made them in the first place), then following that, the kerfuffle when Warners stopped doing press interviews. The movie hadn't even come out, yet it was the talk of the town.

So of COURSE the film did great, pure idle curiosity to see what the fuss was about was always going to drive customers to the cinema. Now that's not to saying it accounts entirely for its success, or even to downplay the effect it had on those who DID enjoy it on its own terms - but Joker's success is as much because of a culmination in clickbait culture as it was being a unique spin on a Batman IP. There's nothing so new under the sun that Rubber Necking isn't still a thing.

Was there much hype about Joker? It didn’t seem particularly hyped to me, certainly not notably hyped anyway. I hadn’t heard much about it when I went to see it. Hubs was keen to see it because he likes Phoenix as an actor.

pixelburp

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Was there much hype about Joker? It didn’t seem particularly hyped to me, certainly not notably hyped anyway.

Hype, no. Column inches spent rattling on about the dangers of incels, or Todd Phillips having some moans about comedy being too PC? Yes, there was lots of that, the latter official output being more "on the record" so to speak, and I've never seen so much written on an unreleased film before in my life.

Of course depending on where the emotionally invested sat, you got all the bystanders on the internet (ie, Twitter) ready to declare this film emblematic of the Trump Era, or proof of the death of PC Agendas. Some of the nonsense written was easier to avoid than others (see previous rant about Twitter), but it was there, floating around like cultural public hairs in the shower drain of discourse. There's a pleasant metaphor to include before dinnertime.

So yeah, of course people went to see this film. Hell, I went to this film to see if it was as incendiary as the talk claimed. Surprise, surprise, It wasn't.
I'll be fascinated about where this film sits in 10 years time, when presumably all the shíte surrounding it has died down, and the film can be assessed on its own merits. I suspect there'll be a lot of "this caused controversy??""