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Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

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    #632
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,557 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    The following are not mutually exclusive
    • The USA have a terrible record historically in Latin America
    • The USA have been behind disastrous regime changes in Iraq and Libya
    • Donald Trump is an unstable conman
    • Venezuela is in a hell of its own making through sheer incompetence by its rulers – nothing to do with the USA (for once)


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    #633
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Gatling wrote: »
    100 russians Vs the population of Venezuela backed up by their neighbours and allies and the US certainly nothing to get excited about ,
    The incident in Syria where several hundred russians and Syrians attacked a Kurdish area who were backed up with American forces ended in complete disaster that left hundreds of Russians dead .

    Chances are they could be planning the evacuation of meduro and any cash and gold reserves he has access to ,

    Let's be honest here this isn't the Cuban missile crisis or other nonsense being bandied around ,
    Putin should tread carefully he's not at currently the most popular person in Russia at the moment

    Obviously, it not yet at this stage. Nato places offensive weapons near Russia border- then Putin may start sending similar weapons to Venezuela. Right now they're not much incentive to send Russian missile systems to Venezuela. The threat is still unclear and not sure what Trump is planning to do change the status quo.

    They were Russian mercenaries, not the regular Russian army who got killed. The estimate is about 100 or less but you always overestimate.


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    #634
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Obviously, it not yet at this stage.

    They were Russian mercenaries, not the regular Russian army who got killed. The estimate is about 100 or less but you always overestimate.

    Not at any stage and the figures were put at the 600 russians killed ,
    Only the Kremlin are saying less for obvious reasons or those whom believe everything the Kremlin spews out .

    But yes Venezuela is a whole different situation no chemical weapons or massacres by meduro forces yet !

    100 russians won't be making much difference to the ongoing situation
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #635
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Gatling wrote: »
    100 russians won't be making much difference to the ongoing situation

    My guess is it's an advance party. You can't just fly an airmobile unit somewhere in an emergency and expect them to be put straight into the line. Well, you can, but it takes a number of chances. But if you have an advance party in place, you already have relationships built in the command structure, know where you're going to get food, water, transport, lodging, and have personnel who know what the ground looks like before they have to do it 'live'. At the same time, as you observe, it's a small enough detachment that it won't raise too many red flags in the meantime.

    The alternative possibility which comes to mind is that they're a SIGING/ELINT detachment, basically in an intelligence role to figure out what the opposition is going through by use of technological intercept.

    Or, maybe they are simple trainers for the Venezuelan military which has been purchasing equipment from Russia recently. Using some currency which presumably isn't Venezuelan.


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    #636
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Coup is underway. Guaido forces and Maduro forces are fighting in the streets.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/apr/30/venezuela-opposition-leader-juan-guaido-claims-coup-underway-live-news


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    #637
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Heavy gunfire now near a Venezulela army base in La Carlota , i have seen the video online and you can hear it. People are on the streets too.


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    #638
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    https://twitter.com/i/status/1123207312251006978


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    #639
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,048 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Please don't use this thread as a blog.

    If you have opinions or comments , please post them , but one line updates or twitter dumps are not acceptable.


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    #640
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    Just like the US illegally occupying a part of Syria Gatling? You still haven't provided that link

    We know they support Israels occupation of the Golan heights, mind some nice oil deposits there.

    Once again it's the poor average person on the street who'll pay in blood for these chess games. There's many routes outside of force where this could have been tackled. You don't give ultimatums right off the bat. Saddened to see Guaido talk of military support, peoples champion or a stooge with eyes on being the latest dictator in the US pocket? He better be nice to Trump if/when he gets in or he'll quickly be demonised by the US lovers of democracy.


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    #641
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    The coup is definately underway now. I have seen video online of arrests by men in uniform and shots fired by the two groups. There know going back to the normal now. Either the coup fails or succeeds. Guaido will have to be arrested or killed now.

    We have to see what movements the US makes will they allow Guaido coup to fail?


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    #642
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,632 ✭✭✭eire4


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    The coup is definately underway now. I have seen video online of arrests by men in uniform and shots fired by the two groups. There know going back to the normal now. Either the coup fails or succeeds. Guaido will have to be arrested or killed now.

    We have to see what movements the US makes will they allow Guaido coup to fail?

    They will as they usually do work through various cover agencies or even private firms to make sure their man in Guaido takes power and then as they have done in so many countries while not officially getting their hands dirty in case they get caught the Americans will have another government beholden to them in power in South America.


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    #643
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,827 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    As it happens I'm watching an old West Wing episode on Sky Atlantic as we speak..

    Just before the last ad break, White House chief of staff Leo McGarry is dancing slowly with his partner on the terrace of the west wing on the night of the President's reelection, when he is interrupted and updated briefly about a developing situation by a Colonel from the national security staff. He returns through the french doors to his date and says..

    "Can you hang on for a bit, theres about to be a coup in Venezuela...."


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    #644
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,156 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Sounds like it's really kicking off, did the Americans light the match?


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    #645
    TeaBagMania
    Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    dont worry, china and russia will be along shortly to guarantee the communist way of life


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    #646
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    TeaBagMania wrote: »
    dont worry, china and russia will be along shortly to guarantee the communist way of life

    Considering he's (mudro) owes both tens of billions depending who you believe ,we know there is 100 russian military advisors on the ground with as many as 10,000 Cuban forces again depending on who you believe then it might be a long wait for real change unless neighbour's decide to get involved with military intervention
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #647
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Sounds like it's really kicking off, did the Americans light the match?

    I believe Venezualans have been capable of creating fire without external assistance for many centuries now.


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    #648
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,632 ✭✭✭eire4


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Sounds like it's really kicking off, did the Americans light the match?

    It would not surprise me at all. The Americans have a long history especially in Latin America of using thríd parties and covert means to unseat presidents who do not do what they are told and replace them with ones that will follow orders from Washington.


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    #649
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    eire4 wrote: »
    It would not surprise me at all. The Americans have a long history especially in Latin America of using thríd parties and covert means to unseat presidents who do not do what they are told and replace them with ones that will follow orders from Washington.

    Things can't get any worse for the ordinary Venezuelan who is forced to live off $8 per month, they are hoping for Trump to launch air strikes and that there is a military incursion by the Brazilians in the South.


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    #650
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    eire4 wrote: »
    They will as they usually do work through various cover agencies or even private firms to make sure their man in Guaido takes power and then as they have done in so many countries while not officially getting their hands dirty in case they get caught the Americans will have another government beholden to them in power in South America.

    Its highly likely the United States has a military plan to overthrow Maduro. I expect some movement from them, if the coup is not working and Guaido captured.

    There no way Bolton, Trump and Pompeo are going to let Maduro stay in power.


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    #651
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I believe Venezualans have been capable of creating fire without external assistance for many centuries now.

    Trump, Pompeo and Bolton are now making threats on twitter. There no doubt it them who is guiding this coup.

    The Venezuelan military has not jumped ship so the coup is doomed to fail. The only left with one option to provide military support to Guaido. I be amazed if Guaido is not arrested or shot in coming hours and days too. Can you leave him there when he openly revolting against the government?


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    #652
    sandbelter
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭sandbelter


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Its highly likely the United States has a military plan to overthrow Maduro. I expect some movement from them, if the coup is not working and Guaido captured.

    There no way Bolton, Trump and Pompeo are going to let Maduro stay in power.


    Once the Russians sent their Blackjack bombers down to Venezuela and started providing "security personnel" it became inevitable, they crossed a line last crossed in 1961. The US is now faced with the same choice Putin was in Crimea of allowing a dangerous enemy a strategic advantage and base to your southern border...they will make the same decision Putin made.....and like Putin it will be irregular forces that do the fighting.



    But America can't blink on this one....if it does it will have Chinese and Russian military bases to the south and it will vindicate the view the Russian have Trump in their pocket.


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    #653
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    theguzman wrote: »
    Things can't get any worse for the ordinary Venezuelan who is forced to live off $8 per month, they are hoping for Trump to launch air strikes and that there is a military incursion by the Brazilians in the South.

    The ordinary Venezuelan supports his independence like in all other countries. Of course the US supports a coup, it always does.


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    #654
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    TeaBagMania wrote: »
    dont worry, china and russia will be along shortly to guarantee the communist way of life

    Neither country is communist. Btw if the legitimate government of Venezuela asked either country for advice that’s their business and in accordance with international law. The US overthrowing counties it doesn’t like isn’t.


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    #655
    TeaBagMania
    Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Neither country is communist. Btw if the legitimate government of Venezuela asked either country for advice that’s their business and in accordance with international law. The US overthrowing counties it doesn’t like isn’t.

    So you're saying China is not a communist country? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China


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    #656
    ArchXStanton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ArchXStanton


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Neither country is communist. Btw if the legitimate government of Venezuela asked either country for advice that’s their business and in accordance with international law. The US overthrowing counties it doesn’t like isn’t.

    Since when have the US been concerned about international law? Anyone that thinks the US isn't behind this coup from the start is a first class idiot and I'd wonder how they even manage to tie their shoelaces


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    #657
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,974 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Why exactly are folks upset that Venezuelans are trying to overthrow Maduro? Near starvation conditions being inflicted upon the populace, Chavez and his successors have driven the country to the brink of collapse.

    Why shouldn't the US support his ousting? Of course they want a more stable government installed, makes for better regional harmony. Doesn't make that at odds with what's better for Venezuelans.


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    #658
    TeaBagMania
    Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    it seems everyone is more excited about an opportunity to take a dig at the US than admitting Chaves and Maduro have been running the country into the ground for decades


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    #659
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Why exactly are folks upset that Venezuelans are trying to overthrow Maduro? Near starvation conditions being inflicted upon the populace, Chavez and his successors have driven the country to the brink of collapse.

    Why shouldn't the US support his ousting? Of course they want a more stable government installed, makes for better regional harmony. Doesn't make that odds with what's better for Venezuelans.

    There's a democratic 'ousting' and the US backing a bloody coup, likely for their own selfish reasons rather than any claims to support democracy. That's what's up for debate. Why would Trump care about the well being of people he likely thinks are criminals, drug dealers and rapists from a sh*thole country?
    TeaBagMania wrote: »
    it seems everyone is more excited about an opportunity to take a dig at the US than admitting Chaves and Maduro have been running the country into the ground for decades

    The thread is specifically about US involvement. Any talk on Chaves and Maduro is very relevant IMO, but so to is talk on the US and it's involvement.


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    #660
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,974 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    There's a democratic 'ousting' and the US backing a bloody coup, likely for their own selfish reasons rather than any claims to support democracy. That's what's up for debate. Why would Trump care about the well being of people he likely thinks are criminals, drug dealers and rapists from a sh*thole country?



    The thread is specifically about US involvement. Any talk on Chaves and Maduro is very relevant IMO, but so to is talk on the US and it's involvement.

    How might Venezuelans accomplish a "democratic" ousting, when the mechanisms of representative government have been destroyed and Chavez and now Maduro have established themselves as dictators?


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    #661
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    How might Venezuelans accomplish a "democratic" ousting, when the mechanisms of representative government have been destroyed and Chavez and now Maduro have established themselves as dictators?

    Are you suggesting an American backed, in the least supported, coup to oust the democratically elected President was the only way to go? Instead of saber rattling from the get go, the US could have pushed for fresh and fair elections not insist their man be allowed take over, IMO.
    What has them where they are is not what my comments were about but the US involvement and its relevancy in being raised in a thread of the same name.


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