Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

Eric Cartman

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Deleted post.

stop it at 51 seconds and you see a whole empty block of shelves to the left, every aisle he goes down has whole shelves covered by advertisements or placeholders. The freezers on the right also have one whole empty freezer, many prducts are pulled to the front with nothing behind them.

2.12 in is the first time you see anybody with anything in their trolley or hands, most people are just walking around.

the beer fridges he visits are about 30% full.

Lastly, its a large supermarket in the capitol , this would be like me walking around grafton street and claiming that theres no poor people in all of ireland.

He even says himself that the inflation maduro imposed on his people is causing problems. If this is how well a supermarket in the capitol is stocked, I can only imagine how desolate the rural ones are.

Gatling

Makes you wonder how much longer before wide spread violence breaks out , with mundro blocking more humanitarian aid from getting in this time from Brazil

From the NY times

CARACAS, Venezuela — The political showdown convulsing Venezuela escalated into deadly violence near the border with Brazil on Friday, as security forces fired on a group of indigenous Venezuelans protesting the government’s determination to block aid deliveries from outside the country.

Witnesses and local officials reported the confrontation a day after President Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela, facing the biggest challenge of his political career, ordered all crossings at the Brazil border closed.

At least two civilians were killed and more than a dozen wounded in the confrontation with security forces in the Gran Sabana area, along Venezuela’s southeast border with Brazil, according to Américo de Grazia, an opposition lawmaker from the state of Bolívar. The Gran Sabana area is inhabited by the Pemón, an indigenous community.

The Venezuelans were protesting the government’s decision to halt all unauthorized imports of emergency food and medical aid into Venezuela, which is suffering increasingly severe shortages. The opposition has vowed to deliver tons of donated humanitarian aid on Saturday, even against Mr. Maduro’s orders.

Notorious

More from the NYT on Venezuela. They've a good video on their front-page summing up the action. They claim that there are numerous military defections.

I think Maduro made a big mistake by halting medical aid at the border. The battle of the concerts was a farce and I'm glad Branson didn't get his own Live Aid moment.

New York Times wrote:

Maduro cuts diplomatic ties with Colombia.
President Maduro, speaking from the capital Caracas, severed diplomatic ties with Colombia and ordered the diplomats of the neighboring nation out of his country within the next 24 hours.

Colombia’s President Ivan Duque has been an outspoken critic of Mr. Maduro and a close ally of the United States, and his country was the main staging point for the opposition’s efforts to bring humanitarian aid across the border.
Mr. Maduro danced the salsa with his wife on stage in an event that was broadcast on national television. Even as the National Guard clashed with protesters elsewhere in the country, he told Venezuelans, “I am stronger than ever.”

He criticized the opposition and called Mr. Guaidó a “puppet of imperialism.”
“Why am I here? Because you are the ones who decide, not Donald Trump,” he said.

Despite a handful of defections, the country’s National Guard has so far not deserted Mr. Maduro en masse as the opposition had hoped.

two wheels good

Wikipedia page here. And if you don't like Wikipedia .. The Intercept reports checking back through satellite pictures and confiming no traffic - ever! - on the bridge.

US humanitarian aid was refused by Venezuela. The Red Cross, Oxfam and other NGOs refused to be involved with the aid because it is "politicised".
It is part of the cover for US meddling in a foreign country. A tactic used often in the past.

John Bolton threatening to sent Maduro to Guantanemo Bay if he doesn't comply with US demands that he retire.
US officials blatantly saying they want to take the oil.

The Monroe Doctrine in practice. Elliott Abrams was involved in coup attempt against Chavez and now he's back for a re-run against Maduro.

20Cent

The west seem desperate to help the Venezuelan people. How about lifting the sanctions against the country. Would help a lot more people then these token aid donations.

Eric Cartman

20Cent wrote: »

The west seem desperate to help the Venezuelan people. How about lifting the sanctions against the country. Would help a lot more people then these token aid donations.

why would that make any odds ? what exact sanctions would you lift ?

Gatling

20Cent wrote: »

The west seem desperate to help the Venezuelan people. How about lifting the sanctions against the country. Would help a lot more people then these token aid donations.

Parts of the population starving meanwhile mundro seems be very well fed -obese even yet he and his minions aren't suffering food and money shortages .
Up until last year America was it's biggest oil buyer and yet were still on lets blame America ,
Bolton and co are gob****es but Chavez and mundro have Venezuela in its current prodicument they are in now ,
The have ignored all the signs of the economy crumbling while ignoring the fact they haven't invested in their oil production facilities which are seriously outdated , expensive to maintain or to even produce oil with ,
Yet jumped into bed with the Chinese to build expensive projects to help China get oil cheaper .

20Cent

Eric Cartman wrote: »

why would that make any odds ? what exact sanctions would you lift ?

The oil embargo.

20Cent

Gatling wrote: »

Parts of the population starving meanwhile mundro seems be very well fed -obese even yet he and his minions aren't suffering food and money shortages .
Up until last year America was it's biggest oil buyer and yet were still on lets blame America ,
Bolton and co are gob****es but Chavez and mundro have Venezuela in its current prodicument they are in now ,
The have ignored all the signs of the economy crumbling while ignoring the fact they haven't invested in their oil production facilities which are seriously outdated , expensive to maintain or to even produce oil with ,
Yet jumped into bed with the Chinese to build expensive projects to help China get oil cheaper .

Exactly it's the poor who are suffering most. If the west genuinely gave a sh1t about the people there they would cancel the sanctions.

Irish Praetorian

20Cent wrote: »

The oil embargo.

20Cent wrote: »

Exactly it's the poor who are suffering most. If the west genuinely gave a sh1t about the people there they would cancel the sanctions.

The same oil sanctions (EO 13850) which haven't even been in operation for whole a month yet? Be fair, the US could lift sanctions tomorrow, or even have never implemented them in the first place and Venezuela would still be in the midst of economic seppuku. How about maybe asking the guys who drove the country into the ground to let someone else try? Maybe someone with a basic understanding of economics?

20Cent

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

The same oil sanctions (EO 13850) which haven't even been in operation for whole a month yet? Be fair, the US could lift sanctions tomorrow, or even have never implemented them in the first place and Venezuela would still be in the midst of economic seppuku. How about maybe asking the guys who drove the country into the ground to let someone else try? Maybe someone with a basic understanding of economics?

Yeah those sanctions.
Cut off 90% of revenue, access to financial markets and freeze bank accounts any country will be a basket case very quickly.

Good loser

20Cent wrote: »

Yeah those sanctions.
Cut off 90% of revenue, access to financial markets and freeze bank accounts any country will be a basket case very quickly.

The US was the only country paying for the oil - up to a month ago.

When paid it was purloined by Maduro and his henchmen; his 'generals' have run the oil industry into the ground thro incompetence and corruption
What kind of a crazy country has 4,000 generals anyway?



The money is now being held in escrow for the good guys.

Irish Praetorian

20Cent wrote: »

Yeah those sanctions.
Cut off 90% of revenue, access to financial markets and freeze bank accounts any country will be a basket case very quickly.

I'm sorry are you seriously suggesting that at the start of January Venezuela was a typical South American state economically speaking?

20Cent

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm sorry are you seriously suggesting that at the start of January Venezuela was a typical South American state economically speaking?

I'm sorry do you think sanctions only started in January?

Manic Moran

20Cent wrote: »

I'm sorry do you think sanctions only started in January?

Here is an overview of what the US has done, going back to 2004. Which of these might be responsible for the current situation that Venezuela is in?

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf

hill16bhoy

You can forgive people for being deeply cynical about anything the US says about Venezuela when you see this sort of shameless tweet from Marco Rubio.

Not just voicing the same disastrous, warmongering neo-con ideology that has destroyed other countries - actively flaunting it.

Rubio and the likes care nothing whatsoever for the people of Venezuela.

https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1099726515292508162?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Irish Praetorian

Manic Moran wrote: »

Here is an overview of what the US has done, going back to 2004. Which of these might be responsible for the current situation that Venezuela is in?

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf

One can only presume the economic prospects of Venezuela were doomed once the people learned their glorious leader (and his wife) wouldnt be able to stash and spend enormous piles of swag in the United States. Though why a good socialist would want swag in the empire of evil is beyond me...

20Cent

Manic Moran wrote: »

Here is an overview of what the US has done, going back to 2004. Which of these might be responsible for the current situation that Venezuela is in?

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf

Obviously no one factor it's an amalgamation of lots of things. Just a bit rich pretending the US cares about the poor in Venezuela when it is punishing them the most with sanctions.

seamus

20Cent wrote: »

Obviously no one factor it's an amalgamation of lots of things. Just a bit rich pretending the US cares about the poor in Venezuela when it is punishing them the most with sanctions.

I think that's far too binary to be fair.

Lifting the sanctions won't improve the lives of the Venezuelan poor by any great measure. Much like the USSR before it fell, most of the money was being taken by oligarchs while the everyday person queued hours for a bit a of food.

The sanctions in effect are the difference between keeping the country on life support, or removing it. One way or another the poor are fvcked, they are going to suffer. The sanctions will just hasten the inevitable.

No, the US doesn't care about poor people in Venezuela. It cares about getting a friendly government back in the driving seat. But achieving that isn't necessarily at odds with helping the poor.

More recent reports have suggested that a small number of military units have abandoned their posts at borders blocking aid, and that more of it is getting through. This will increase over time. Venezuelans have been told that the foreign aid has been poisoned and will cause cancer. There is only so long that disinformation can last before people get desperate enough to accept it anyway.

Maduro is a dictator. He presides over a country where his people are starving and dying, political and personal freedoms are being crushed.

There are only two ways to break a dictator - financially or militarily. Every time the US has tried the military route, it has made a balls of it.

Irish Praetorian

20Cent wrote: »

Obviously no one factor it's an amalgamation of lots of things. Just a bit rich pretending the US cares about the poor in Venezuela when it is punishing them the most with sanctions.

And how exactly do the poor of Venezuela suffer from glorious leader being unable to shop at Nordstroms?

MFPM

seamus wrote: »

I think that's far too binary to be fair.

Lifting the sanctions won't improve the lives of the Venezuelan poor by any great measure. Much like the USSR before it fell, most of the money was being taken by oligarchs while the everyday person queued hours for a bit a of food.

The sanctions in effect are the difference between keeping the country on life support, or removing it. One way or another the poor are fvcked, they are going to suffer. The sanctions will just hasten the inevitable.

No, the US doesn't care about poor people in Venezuela. It cares about getting a friendly government back in the driving seat. But achieving that isn't necessarily at odds with helping the poor.

More recent reports have suggested that a small number of military units have abandoned their posts at borders blocking aid, and that more of it is getting through. This will increase over time. Venezuelans have been told that the foreign aid has been poisoned and will cause cancer. There is only so long that disinformation can last before people get desperate enough to accept it anyway.

Maduro is a dictator. He presides over a country where his people are starving and dying, political and personal freedoms are being crushed.

There are only two ways to break a dictator - financially or militarily. Every time the US has tried the military route, it has made a balls of it.

That's all a little simplistic.

Firtsly I'm not sure one can characterise Maduro as a dictator per se, he did stand for election and yes there were irregularaties in the votung process but that doesn't make him a dictator.

There are many, many countries where people live in the circumstances that you allude too - but the US ONLY intervene when they perceive a threath to their strategic interests and benovelenece that ordinary people accrue is simly accidental. The economic situation is an indictment of Maduro's (and Chavez previousl) over reliance on oil revenue previously but also the various US led blockades are undoubtedly a part of the problem not to mention the persisten covert intterference by the US over decades - perhaps Muller could look into that when he's finished with DT!!

As for breaking a dictator - if one supports imperial intervention then yes there are 'only two ways' but of course the third way is for people in their own countries to do the breaking as they have done in many countries.

20Cent

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

And how exactly do the poor of Venezuela suffer from glorious leader being unable to shop at Nordstroms?

He'll still be able to get whatever he wants it's the poor who suffer the most from these sanctions.

Irish Praetorian

20Cent wrote: »

He'll still be able to get whatever he wants it's the poor who suffer the most from these sanctions.

But that's almost entirely my point - prior to the start of this month the poor like everyone else in Venezuela were not under any kind of US sanction, only the political leadership which had managed to ruin the country. Its highly disingenuous to now be speaking up for the plight of the poor, having spent the past 5 years ignoring them.

20Cent

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

But that's almost entirely my point - prior to the start of this month the poor like everyone else in Venezuela were not under any kind of US sanction, only the political leadership which had managed to ruin the country. Its highly disingenuous to now be speaking up for the plight of the poor, having spent the past 5 years ignoring them.

Sanctions have been going on since 2004 at least.

Elmer Blooker

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

And how exactly do the poor of Venezuela suffer from glorious leader being unable to shop at Nordstroms?

There seems to be great concern for the 'poor' of Venezuela but its reassuring that Brazil is coming to the rescue with 'humanitarian' aid for Venezuela.
In case anyone needs reminding Brazil has slums and shantytowns (Favelas) as bad as anything in Asia, with the infant mortality and diseases because of the lack of sanitation in these slums you would think Brazil should be looking a bit closer to home.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47300962

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

There seems to be great concern for the 'poor' of Venezuela but its reassuring that Brazil is coming to the rescue with 'humanitarian' aid for Venezuela.
In case anyone needs reminding Brazil has slums and shantytowns (Favelas) as bad as anything in Asia, with the infant mortality and diseases because of the lack of sanitation in these slums you would think Brazil should be looking a bit closer to home.

Really but we were bankrupt and up to our necks in debt essentially a homeless problem and hse problem and yet we still send money and aid to Africa ,
India one of the biggest enconomys in the world they have a space program but yet other countries provide aid and medical supplies for poor Indians,
Your beloved russians are the same ,

Love thy neighbor isn't that's what quoted in the Bible

theguzman

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

There seems to be great concern for the 'poor' of Venezuela but its reassuring that Brazil is coming to the rescue with 'humanitarian' aid for Venezuela.
In case anyone needs reminding Brazil has slums and shantytowns (Favelas) as bad as anything in Asia, with the infant mortality and diseases because of the lack of sanitation in these slums you would think Brazil should be looking a bit closer to home.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47300962

Bolsonaro in Brazil will most likely launch a ground invasion of Venezuela to get rid of Socialism there. If there is one thing that man hates it is the left.

WinnyThePoo

theguzman wrote: »

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

There seems to be great concern for the 'poor' of Venezuela but its reassuring that Brazil is coming to the rescue with 'humanitarian' aid for Venezuela.
In case anyone needs reminding Brazil has slums and shantytowns (Favelas) as bad as anything in Asia, with the infant mortality and diseases because of the lack of sanitation in these slums you would think Brazil should be looking a bit closer to home.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47300962

Bolsonaro in Brazil will most likely launch a ground invasion of Venezuela to get rid of Socialism there. If there is one thing that man hates it is the left.

Isn't bolsonaro pro nationalisation of private companies himself?

Irish Praetorian

20Cent wrote: »

Sanctions have been going on since 2004 at least.

Except, as you can clearly find from that handy pdf posted by MM, none of those have gone beyond targeting specific individuals until 2019, in-fact some made specific provision to ensure food and medicine were not impacted upon by sanctions.

Irish Praetorian

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

There seems to be great concern for the 'poor' of Venezuela but its reassuring that Brazil is coming to the rescue with 'humanitarian' aid for Venezuela.
In case anyone needs reminding Brazil has slums and shantytowns (Favelas) as bad as anything in Asia, with the infant mortality and diseases because of the lack of sanitation in these slums you would think Brazil should be looking a bit closer to home.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47300962

So your response as to why the people of country A, should be concerned about the actions of country B impacting the leadership of country A, is to refer to country Z in some unrelated sphere?