Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

Cheerful Spring

It not surprising the CIA and other groups have always stirred up trouble in South America and Central America for decades. I knew it was only a matter of time, once Russia send warplanes to bases in Venezuela, a coup would get underway.

Trump is coming out claiming the opposition leader is the real president. This could be the next Cuba. Remember how crazy that got in the 60s and we nearly all got obliterated by nuclear weapons.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46980913

Eric Cartman

Venezuelan people are eating rats and flamingos to stay alive. Socialism has failed there and the people are rising up against it.

Whatever about russia and stopping them, this may be the first time in a long time that US intervention would actually help the people on the ground and get them out from a legacy of tyranny.

Cheerful Spring

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Venezuelan people are eating rats and flamingos to stay alive. Socialism has failed there and the people are rising up against it.

Whatever about russia and stopping them, this may be the first time in a long time that US intervention would actually help the people on the ground and get them out from a legacy of tyranny.

Is never as simple as that. American foreign policy is the problem. How much you bet the Americans are making it harder for the ordinary people to live. America does not give a crap about the people of Venezuela if they did economic sanctions would be the last thing they would use.

Eric Cartman

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Is never as simple as that. American foreign policy is the problem. How much you bet the Americans are making it harder for the ordinary people to live. America does not give a crap about the people of Venezuela if they did economic sanctions would be the last thing they would use.

it doesn't get much harder than eating rats and flamingos to stay alive. The Venezuelan government starved their people and caused the problems. I agree that the US shouldn't be the world police that they are, but how do you suggest they break away from the tyranny of socialism on their own ?

hmmm

We can add Venezuela to that ever-growing list of socialist countries who have resorted to shooting their own starving people.

Do any socialists on here ever stop for a minute and ask themselves why there has never been a successful socialist state? Before they head out with their yellow jackets to demand the overthrow of capitalism etc?

blanch152

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Is never as simple as that. American foreign policy is the problem. How much you bet the Americans are making it harder for the ordinary people to live. America does not give a crap about the people of Venezuela if they did economic sanctions would be the last thing they would use.

Venezuela has oil, yet its people are starving. How that is the fault of American foreign policy is mind-boggling.

Like any country, America operates its foreign policy for the good of America. China operates its foreign policy for the good of China. Ditto Russia, ditto Britain, ditto Cuba, ditto North Korea, and all the other good socialist states.

Should something be done about the situation in Venezuela? Yes.
Are they going to get assistance from North Korea? No.
Are America the only option to help? Looks like it.

Eric Cartman

hmmm wrote: »

We can add Venezuela to that ever-growing list of socialist countries who have resorted to shooting their own starving people.

Do any socialists on here ever stop for a minute and ask themselves why there has never been a successful socialist state? Before they head out with their yellow jackets to demand the overthrow of capitalism etc?

but you see 'that wasnt real socialism' is the get out of jail free card, theyre only real socialists up until that point where the rest of the world finds out about the starvation and secret police, then out comes that get out of jail free card and they campaign again for more countries to join the 'bountiful utopia' that is socialism.

Fr Tod Umptious

hmmm wrote: »

We can add Venezuela to that ever-growing list of socialist countries who have resorted to shooting their own starving people.

Do any socialists on here ever stop for a minute and ask themselves why there has never been a successful socialist state? Before they head out with their yellow jackets to demand the overthrow of capitalism etc?

The default response to that will be that the state in question did not implement the socialism the right way.

You see apparently there is this correct way to do it that gives a utopia and the wrong way to do it that ends up like Venezuela, USSR, pre commercial China etc etc.

The problem is that over the past 100 plus years none of these guys have managed to get it right.

Harry Palmr

Anyone watch that BBC Two programme about the last 30 years of Venezuela? It's the Zimbabwe of South America - it has it all to be rich and yet is dirt poor due to corruption and a ludicrous interpretation of socialism (not communism) - the one where all the power is with the leader and the masses are made poorer.

Fr Tod Umptious

Eric Cartman wrote: »

but you see 'that wasnt real socialism' is the get out of jail free card, theyre only real socialists up until that point where the rest of the world finds out about the starvation and secret police, then out comes that get out of jail free card and they campaign again for more countries to join the 'bountiful utopia' that is socialism.

What he/she said.

Eric Cartman

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Anyone watch that BBC Two programme about the last 30 years of Venezuela? It's the Zimbabwe of South America - it has it all to be rich and yet is dirt poor due to corruption and a ludicrous interpretation of socialism (not communism) - the one where all the power is with the leader and the masses are made poorer.

so socialism in general then ?

Ak84

Yes it almost seems like the Yanks are intervening on the right side for once.
But then again they have ****ed up the country with sanctions.
Coupled with Maduros poor leadership the Socialist State is gone.
Bastard Yanks will be in to fill their tankers soon.

italodisco

hmmm wrote: »

We can add Venezuela to that ever-growing list of socialist countries who have resorted to shooting their own starving people.

Do any socialists on here ever stop for a minute and ask themselves why there has never been a successful socialist state? Before they head out with their yellow jackets to demand the overthrow of capitalism etc?

I'd say a fair few pints just got dropped on the floor in the back page / the Bernard Shaw when your post landed lol

Cheerful Spring

blanch152 wrote: »

Venezuela has oil, yet its people are starving. How that is the fault of American foreign policy is mind-boggling.

Like any country, America operates its foreign policy for the good of America. China operates its foreign policy for the good of China. Ditto Russia, ditto Britain, ditto Cuba, ditto North Korea, and all the other good socialist states.

Should something be done about the situation in Venezuela? Yes.
Are they going to get assistance from North Korea? No.
Are America the only option to help? Looks like it.

Economic sanctions. America has the strength and power to strangle the country. I don't believe for one moment the Venezuelan leadership is deliberately starving its population. There reasons people have less food.

They tried to do the same thing to Cuba in the 60s, but they survived through it.


Trump stepped up financial pressure on Venezuela by banning the U.S. purchase of any debts or accounts receivables owed to Caracas or the state oil company, Petroleum of Venezuela (PDVSA).

Less money coming in means less food for people.

Fr Tod Umptious

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Economic sanctions. America has the strength and power to strangle the country. I don't believe for one moment the Venezuelan leadership is deliberately starving its population. There reasons people have less food.

They tried to do the same thing to Cuba in the 60s, but they survived through it.


Trump stepped up financial pressure on Venezuela by banning the U.S. purchase of any debts or accounts receivables owed to Caracas or the state oil company, Petroleum of Venezuela (PDVSA).

Less money coming in means less food for people.

Venezuela has been in an economic crush this whole decade, it's not some result of something Trump did.

Harry Palmr

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so socialism in general then ?

Well no Europe has had socialist governments which were successful - look to post war Britain and West Germany, esp that of the Willy Brandt led SDP. The problem with South America countries is they tend to define themselves by what they are not - "capitalist American pig-dogs" and so make darned sure to push the socialist concept to it's extremes while grandstanding constantly rather than forming and implementing economically and socially sound policies.

Cheerful Spring

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The default response to that will be that the state in question did not implement the socialism the right way.

You see apparently there is this correct way to do it that gives a utopia and the wrong way to do it that ends up like Venezuela, USSR, pre commercial China etc etc.

The problem is that over the past 100 plus years none of these guys have managed to get it right.

China is still communist-run country, so you're wrong.

USSR was fighting a cold war. They spend too much money on weapons and forget everything else.

You can still be socialist country and not run your country into the ground. China was smart and noticed what they needed to do.

Scandinavian countries are often shown as prove socialism can work.

listermint

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

China is still communist-run country, so you're wrong.

USSR was fighting a cold war. They spend too much money on weapons and forget everything else.

You can still be socialist country and not run your country into the ground. China was smart and noticed what they needed to do.

Scandinavian countries are often shown as prove socialism can work.

China is not a communist country.

I see you bandied yourself out of that statement by using the word run.

But I'm calling you out on the obvious. Its not communist so your point is irrelevant

Cheerful Spring

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Venezuela has been in an economic crush this whole decade, it's not some result of something Trump did.

Nobody said it was perfect, most countries in Central America are poor though. The difference is the Americans have picked on Venezuela since 2013 and there is the reason the country is struggling further. America has done it utmost to destroy the economy since 2013.

Cheerful Spring

listermint wrote: »

China is not a communist country.

I see you bandied yourself out of that statement by using the word run.

But I'm calling you out on the obvious. Its not communist so your point is irrelevant

The political structure is communist. The decisions are made by the communist party. Economic changes are decided by the party. Socially nothing is allowed unless you get the go-ahead from the communist party.

theoneeyedman

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Venezuela has been in an economic crush this whole decade, it's not some result of something Trump did.

A mess a lot longer than a decade. Before Chevez was elected, people were starving, but the oil was flowing and the elite were pocketing and pilfering the country's resources. Indeed, that was one of the main causes Chevez got the platform to gain power.
The policy of increasing oil production by Saudi and the US dropped the price of crude, which had a huge impact on Venezuela. Less a debate about capitalism v socialism, more a story of greed by elites (both internal and external) sh1ting on the poor of a resource rich country.

Eric Cartman

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

China is still communist-run country, so you're wrong.

USSR was fighting a cold war. They spend too much money on weapons and forget everything else.

You can still be socialist country and not run your country into the ground. China was smart and noticed what they needed to do.

Scandinavian countries are often shown as prove socialism can work.

Norway runs off selling oil to foreign countries to fund its social programs
Sweden similar for timber and mining
Those countries are "social democracies" which is basically enough socialism to call themselves socialist and enough mercantilism and capitalism to get the money in the door to pay for it.

Those countries couldnt survive without their extortionate tax rates and the more capitalist leaning countries importing their products.

The reality is theres a lot of norwegians in Ireland because they can't afford to live in norway, they can be on the social and get an apartment and do endless college courses and its all sunshine and rainbows cradle to the grave, provided you don't have any interest or motivation to make something of yourself or want to make money / make a diference / serve a purpose in this world.

listermint

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The political structure is communist. The decisions are made by the communist party. Economic changes are decided by the party. Socially nothing is allowed unless you get the go-ahead from the communist party.

Its not a communist country.

Stop trick acting now just to prove a lie.

Harry Palmr

There's 479 Norwegians in Ireland as of 2016 census. Not exactly an exodus! There is 1200 from Venezuela though!

oscarBravo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The reality is theres a lot of norwegians in Ireland...

Are there? How many?

...because they can't afford to live in norway...

Unlike all the Norwegians who can afford to live in Norway. Besides, when did you suddenly start caring about people who can't afford things? I thought they were beneath you.

...they can be on the social and get an apartment and do endless college courses and its all sunshine and rainbows cradle to the grave...

Hang on, I thought they couldn't afford to live in Norway. You wouldn't be just making random crap up, would you?

...provided you don't have any interest or motivation to make something of yourself or want to make money / make a diference / serve a purpose in this world.

Ah. Making random crap up it is, so.

You know, you really ought to go and spend some time in Scandinavia, talking to Scandinavians, instead of forming your impressions of Scandinavia from what you've seen on Fox News.

Cheerful Spring

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Norway runs off selling oil to foreign countries to fund its social programs
Sweden similar for timber and mining
Those countries are "social democracies" which is basically enough socialism to call themselves socialist and enough mercantilism and capitalism to get the money in the door to pay for it.

Those countries couldnt survive without their extortionate tax rates and the more capitalist leaning countries importing their products.

The reality is theres a lot of norwegians in Ireland because they can't afford to live in norway, they can be on the social and get an apartment and do endless college courses and its all sunshine and rainbows cradle to the grave, provided you don't have any interest or motivation to make something of yourself or want to make money / make a diference / serve a purpose in this world.

If capitalism is so great. Why are there millions of Americans impoverished and hungry, why do they have a high crime rate? Education is expensive and health forget about it if you have no insurance, break your arm they send you away. America has 20 trillion debt issue that can destroy them.

Ireland is a socialist country/capitalist country.

Eric Cartman

oscarBravo wrote: »

Are there? How many? Unlike all the Norwegians who can afford to live in Norway. Besides, when did you suddenly start caring about people who can't afford things? I thought they were beneath you. Hang on, I thought they couldn't afford to live in Norway. You wouldn't be just making random crap up, would you?

Ah. Making random crap up it is, so.

You know, you really ought to go and spend some time in Scandinavia, talking to Scandinavians, instead of forming your impressions of Scandinavia from what you've seen on Fox News.

Theres a whole load of them working in HP in leixlip, come down the local on a friday and ask them how great norway is, the things they tell you won't be so positive.

Eric Cartman

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

If capitalism is so great. Why are there millions of Americans impoverished and hungry, why do they have a high crime rate? Education is expensive and health forget about it if you have no insurance, break your arm they send you away. America has 20 trillion debt issue that can destroy them.

Ireland is a socialist country/capitalist country.

I'd rather some of the people starve than almost all of the people starve.

oscarBravo

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Ireland is a socialist country/capitalist country.

Ireland, like Norway, is a social democracy. The only people who confuse social democracy with socialism are Ayn Rand fetishists who, frankly, desperately need to spend some time in abject poverty to disabuse them of their bizarre ideas of how the world should work.

Vote4Napoleon

Cheerful Spring wrote:

China is still communist-run country, so you're wrong.

Communism for the common folk not for the chosen billionaires... tyranny

Cheerful Spring wrote:

Scandinavian countries are often shown as prove socialism can work.

They're capitalist countries with socialist programs.

Cheerful Spring wrote:

You can still be socialist country and not run your country into the ground. China was smart and noticed what they needed to do.

Make those who speak against the regime shut up or disappear.

Cheerful Spring wrote:

USSR was fighting a cold war. They spend too much money on weapons and forget everything else.

Does dat include the price of the bullets used to murder their own citizens

Cheerful Spring

listermint wrote: »

Its not a communist country.

Stop trick acting now just to prove a lie.

China, officially the People's Republic of China (PRC), is a country in East Asia and the world's most populous country, with a population of around 1.404 billion.[13] Covering approximately 9,600,000 square kilometers (3,700,000 sq mi), it is the third- or fourth-largest country by total area.[k][19] Governed by the Communist Party of China, the state exercises jurisdiction over 22 provinces, five autonomous regions, four direct-controlled municipalities (Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai, and Chongqing), and the special administrative regions of Hong Kong and Macau.

Is this false info:rolleyes:

listermint

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

China, officially the People's Republic of China (PRC), is a country in East Asia and the world's most populous country, with a population of around 1.404 billion.[13] Covering approximately 9,600,000 square kilometers (3,700,000 sq mi), it is the third- or fourth-largest country by total area.[k][19] Governed by the Communist Party of China, the state exercises jurisdiction over 22 provinces, five autonomous regions, four direct-controlled municipalities (Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai, and Chongqing), and the special administrative regions of Hong Kong and Macau.

Is this false info:rolleyes:

Look you've been found out.

China is not a communist country I'm not debating this crap with you anymore. You are being ridiculous.

oscarBravo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Theres a whole load of them working in HP in leixlip, come down the local on a friday and ask them how great norway is, the things they tell you won't be so positive.

If I want to form an opinion of Norway, I'll go to Norway.

I've spent a fair bit of time in Denmark, and rather less in Sweden, and I'd be willing to wager that my knowledge of Scandinavia is somewhat more grounded in reality than what you've managed to glean down the local.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I'd rather some of the people starve than almost all of the people starve.

I'd rather nobody starved, which really isn't all that lofty an ambition, when you think about it.

Cheerful Spring

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ireland, like Norway, is a social democracy. The only people who confuse social democracy with socialism are Ayn Rand fetishists who, frankly, desperately need to spend some time in abject poverty to disabuse them of their bizarre ideas of how the world should work.

That true, but socialism is about helping the ordinary people of the country, rich and poor. We are socialists. Socialism is not bad. The Americans want you believe socialism is an evil and terrible thing.

oscarBravo

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That true, but socialism is about helping the ordinary people of the country, rich and poor. We are socialists. Socialism is not bad. The Americans want you believe socialism is an evil and terrible thing.

I prefer the term "social democracy", because describing it as socialism gives the Randites an excuse to gibber about tax being theft and how the poor should just shut up and die, already.

Midlife

Can anyone explain how Venezuela basically has only oil to import and are fooked whereas Saudi Arabia are loaded? Is it just way more people?

Eric Cartman

oscarBravo wrote: »

If I want to form an opinion of Norway, I'll go to Norway.

I've spent a fair bit of time in Denmark, and rather less in Sweden, and I'd be willing to wager that my knowledge of Scandinavia is somewhat more grounded in reality than what you've managed to glean down the local.

I'd rather nobody starved, which really isn't all that lofty an ambition, when you think about it.

well how do we make that happen ?
the nordic countries you praise still have people homeless and starving, its very clear that theres a balance between socialism and capitalism that keeps most people not starving but everyones not exactly happy with it. Too much socialism and everyone starves, too much capitalism and the starving turn to crime.

Cheerful Spring

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I'd rather some of the people starve than almost all of the people starve.

40 million Americans are on the poverty line, according to gov stats over there. They should not lecture other countries about poverty. Instead of wasting 600 million on weapons they should be feeding their people. Do you really believe they need 600 million to fight Isis or just rich men enriching themselves with taxpayer money?

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

well how do we make that happen ?
the nordic countries you praise still have people homeless and starving, its very clear that theres a balance between socialism and capitalism that keeps most people not starving but everyones not exactly happy with it. Too much socialism and everyone starves, too much capitalism and the starving turn to crime.

Are you trying to infer that everyone in a society is happy all the time .?

We've thousands of Irish all over the world that give out about Ireland down the pub in Australia and Canada.

So your Norwegians story doesn't really hold much weight. Random punters with opinions is normal

Eric Cartman

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

40 million Americans are on the poverty line, according to gov stats over there. They should not lecture other countries about poverty. Instead of wasting 600 million on weapons they should be feeding their people. Do you really believe they need 600 million to fight Isis or just rich men enriching themselves with taxpayer money?

less than 10% of americans are on the poverty line, atleast 30 of the 36 million in venezuela are starving / malnourished. Now Im not advocating for the american system , but by metrics of starving people its certainly clear which country is better.

TheValeyard

What other choice does the country have? The people are starving, millions have fled the nation, hyper inflation, economic collapse, political corruption. Another failed socialist state. Add that to the long list of failed nations. The people are going to try give someone else a go who might actually solve some problems. For a country floating in oil it should be the bread basket of South America and not the poor man.

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

less than 10% of americans are on the poverty line, atleast 30 of the 36 million in venezuela are starving / malnourished. Now Im not advocating for the american system , but by metrics of starving people its certainly clear which country is better.

Actually it was 12 four years ago and is up to around 15 now and still going

So erm...

Eric Cartman

listermint wrote: »

Actually it was 12 four years ago and is up to around 15 now and still going

So erm...

fair enough , its still not 83% though.

Cheerful Spring

Eric Cartman wrote: »

less than 10% of americans are on the poverty line, atleast 30 of the 36 million in venezuela are starving / malnourished. Now Im not advocating for the american system , but by metrics of starving people its certainly clear which country is better.

America is a superpower with vast wealth there should be nobody starving or going hungry., 40 million is gov stat so likely to be a lot higher.

Where did you find that stat 30 million people are starving in Venezuela? Feel its extremely high?

I prefer what we have in Ireland a mix of both capitalism and socialism is good.

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

fair enough , its still not 83% though.

Its still 15% in the 'greatest' country in the world. That's a ridiculous stat. And ye complain about scandanavian countries.

Yet they consistently top the polls in best places to live

rossie1977

Venezuela is a totalitarian petrostate run by a crazed dictator.

I know it's a far right talking point in the us and online to use it to highlight that all socialism is evil but it's akin to using Somalia to highlight that small government or libertarian would be terrible.

Cheerful Spring

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

What other choice does the country have? The people are starving, millions have fled the nation, hyper inflation, economic collapse, political corruption. Another failed socialist state. Add that to the long list of failed nations. The people are going to try give someone else a go who might actually solve some problems. For a country floating in oil it should be the bread basket of South America and not the poor man.

Yep if left alone and let them deal with it on their own. I guarantee if America did not sanction them in 2013, they be fine right now.

Bernie Sanders was a social democrat and you saw how he was attacked by the right in America. The Democrat establishment even went as far to rig the primary election and media coverage for Hilary.

Eric Cartman

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Yep if left alone and let them deal with it on their own. I guarantee if America did not sanction them in 2013, they be fine right now.

Bernie Sanders was a social democrat and you saw how he was attacked by the right in America. The Democrat establishment even went as far to rig the primary election and media coverage for Hilary.

What, this problem started well before 2013 for venezuela. It's never been a prosperous country for the ordinary people. Successive governments implementing socialist policies have made it infinitely worse before america even gave a toss.

Mutant z

Socialism is a cancer on this planet hopefully the people can rise up and overthrow that horrible government once and all to get out of such a terrible situation not that the lefties will care they will still find a way to blame everyone else anything but their beloved permanently failed ideology.

Cheerful Spring

Mutant z wrote: »

Socialism is a cancer on this planet hopefully the people can rise up and overthrow that horrible government once and all to get out of such a terrible situation not that the lefties will care they will still find a way to blame everyone else anything but their beloved permanently failed ideology.

Socialism
A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

If you believe 1 per cent of the world population are entitled to 50 per cent of the wealth, then socialism is evil and should be eradicated.

Mutant z

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Yep if left alone and let them deal with it on their own. I guarantee if America did not sanction them in 2013, they be fine right now.

Bernie Sanders was a social democrat and you saw how he was attacked by the right in America. The Democrat establishment even went as far to rig the primary election and media coverage for Hilary.

The problem is the deranged policies enacted by Maduro which made it into a hell on earth and yet gullible fools like Higgins and Corbyn still believe that's the sort of society we should all follow the credibility of the far left is in complete tatters after this they no longer have any excuses to fall back on when this disaster has been broadcaster for the whole world to see.