Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

eire4

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Why exactly are folks upset that Venezuelans are trying to overthrow Maduro? Near starvation conditions being inflicted upon the populace, Chavez and his successors have driven the country to the brink of collapse.

Why shouldn't the US support his ousting? Of course they want a more stable government installed, makes for better regional harmony. Doesn't make that at odds with what's better for Venezuelans.

No question that the people of Venezuela are and have been suffering terribly. But the idea that the US is some bastion of goodness and just wants what is best for the people of Venezuela is risible. The Americas will do what they always do with their empire look to install a puppet who will do what he is told or whom they at least can extort because they owe the US and that means that most Venezuelans will continue to suffer for the long term because economic exploitation is the US stock in trade in these situations.

eire4

I saw the US mask slip a little on CNN yesterday when US senator Dough Jones was being interviewed and he said of course Maduro needed to go no surprise there. But then he siad Maduro needed to and I quote ""needs to leave and the Russians need to get out and leave our part of the world alone"

Sounds about right given how the US usually indirectly has long treated countries in Central and South America by getting rid of any governments that do not do what they are told by the US.

AbusesToilets

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Are you suggesting an American backed, in the least supported, coup to oust the democratically elected President was the only way to go? Instead of saber rattling from the get go, the US could have pushed for fresh and fair elections not insist their man be allowed take over, IMO.
What has them where they are is not what my comments were about but the US involvement and its relevancy in being raised in a thread of the same name.

The recent governments of Venezuela have certain shown themselves to be receptive to suggestions that they adhere to democratic principles, right?

People in this thread seem happy for the Venezuelan people to continue to suffer , because the potential ouster of Maduro has the backing off the US and ither Western countries. You want to talk about risible attitudes...

AbusesToilets

eire4 wrote: »

No question that the people of Venezuela are and have been suffering terribly. But the idea that the US is some bastion of goodness and just wants what is best for the people of Venezuela is risible. The Americas will do what they always do with their empire look to install a puppet who will do what he is told or whom they at least can extort because they owe the US and that means that most Venezuelans will continue to suffer for the long term because economic exploitation is the US stock in trade in these situations.

Remind me again what the quality of life was for Venezuelans before Chavez took over? How have his policies and those of his successor played out for the average person on the street?

The US is to blame, regardless of circumstances of course

eire4

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Remind me again what the quality of life was for Venezuelans before Chavez took over? How have his policies and those of his successor played out for the average person on the street?

The US is to blame, regardless of circumstances of course

Firstly it is not about is the US to blame as it is about the US is not the solution. The US does not care a jot about the suffering of the people of Venezuela. They have a long history of installing puppet governments who will do what they are told in Latin America and when any governments in that region do not do what they are told they do not survive. The US is there to exploit not to help that is what they do in Latin America and many other places.

As for for your questions actually the people of Venezuela did actually see improved living standards under Chavez. According to a UN report:

"Venezuelans’ quality of life improved at the third-fastest pace worldwide and income inequality narrowed during the presidency of Hugo Chavez, who tapped the world’s biggest oil reserves to aid the poor.
Venezuela moved up seven spots to 73 out of 187 countries in the United Nation’s index of human development from 2006 to 2011, a period that covers the latter half of Chavez’s rule, which ended with his death March 5."


Here is an article from The Guardian giving more detail on how life actually improved overall under Chavez:

How did Venezuela change under Hugo Chávez?
Venezuela's president has died 14 years after his first election victory. How did the country changed since Hugo Chávez took power?

Key indicators that show how Venezuela has changed since Hugo Chavez first assumed office.
How have things changed under Hugo Chávez, who died yesterday?
By looking at key indicators we can see that poverty levels and illiteracy have fallen but violent crime and inflation has increased.
Using data gathered from sources such as the World Bank, the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR), International Monetary Fund (IMF), Reuters, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), the US Energy Information Administration (eia), the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) and the Instituto Nacional de Estadística, we have been able to gather a variety of key indicators that show how Venezuela has changed since 1999 when Chávez first assumed office. We've used the most recent data where possible.
Click on the above graphic to see a full size version. You can explore our interactive version of the key figures too. So what does the data show?
• Unemployment has dropped from 14.5% of the total labour force in 1999 to 7.6% in 2009
• Population has increased from 23,867,000 in 1999 to 29,278,000 in 2011. The annual population growth was 1.5% in 2011 compared with 1.9% in 1999
• GDP per capita has risen from $4,105 to $10,801 in 2011
• As you can see in the graphic chart, Venezuela's inflation has fluctuated since 1999. Inflation now stands at 31.6% compared with 23.6% in 1999
• Venezuela has a complicated history concerning currency exchange rates. Compared with 1999 when the exchange rate was under one bolivar to the US dollar, the latest figures from Reuters place it at 4.3 Bolivars to one dollar
• Poverty has decreased - in 1999, 23.4% of the population were recorded as being in extreme poverty, this fell to 8.5% in 2011 according to official government figures
• Infant mortality is now lower than in 1999 - from a rate of 20 per 1,000 live births then to a rate of 13 per 1,000 live births in 2011
• Violence has been a key concern in Venezuela for some time - figures from the UNODC state that the murder rate has risen since 1999. In 2011 the intentional homicide rate per 100,000 population was 45.1 compared with 25.0 just twelve years earlier
• Oil exports have boomed - Venezuela has one of the top proven oil reserves in the world and in 2011 Opec put the country's net oil export revenues at $60bn. In 1999 it stood at $14.4bn


Now they over relied on Oil and after Chavez's death when oil prices started to drop significantly that started to hurt their economy and things have got worse and worse from there.

ArchXStanton

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Why exactly are folks upset that Venezuelans are trying to overthrow Maduro? Near starvation conditions being inflicted upon the populace, Chavez and his successors have driven the country to the brink of collapse.

Why shouldn't the US support his ousting? Of course they want a more stable government installed, makes for better regional harmony. Doesn't make that at odds with what's better for Venezuelans.

Do you think the US would put up with that sort of meddling in its affairs? Why didn't thousands of Venezuelans rise up with Guaido yesterday?

AbusesToilets

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Do you think the US would put up with that sort of meddling in its affairs? Why didn't thousands of Venezuelans rise up with Guaido yesterday?

What meddling would that be, Supporting an alternative to Maduro's dictatorship? How nefarious of them.

ArchXStanton

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What meddling would that be, Supporting an alternative to Maduro's dictatorship? How nefarious of them.

Indeed.... All options are on the table, I'm sure Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc are thankful for US meddling

AbusesToilets

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Indeed.... All options are on the table, I'm sure Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc are thankful for US meddling

Those situations being identical in nature and not unique to themselves, right?

Must have missed where the US sent in its military.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Video dump deleted.

James Brown

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The recent governments of Venezuela have certain shown themselves to be receptive to suggestions that they adhere to democratic principles, right?

People in this thread seem happy for the Venezuelan people to continue to suffer , because the potential ouster of Maduro has the backing off the US and ither Western countries. You want to talk about risible attitudes...

I won't repeat my comment, I'll just say free and fair elections could have been sought rather than US sabre rattling telling the leader of another country to go. It was going to be bloody. The US couldn't care less about the man/woman on the street.

That's patently false.

bells of shandon

The Pretender Juan Guaido has been groomed for 15 years as a long-term CIA project.
His coup attempt yesterday, which so far appears to have stalled, was the culmination of these efforts to return Venezuela’s oil reserves to US hegemony.
It is strange how the urgent installation of liberal democracy by force correlates so often with oil reserves not aligned to the USA, as in Libya, Iraq or Venezuela, while countries with massive oil reserves which permit US military domination and align with the West and Israel can be as undemocratic as they wish, eg Saudi Arabia. Venezuela is an imperfect democracy but it is far, far more of a democracy than Saudi Arabia and with a much better human rights record.
The hypocrisy of Western media and politicians is breathtaking.
Hypocrisy and irony are soulmates, and there are multiple levels of irony in seeing the “liberal” commentators who were cheering on an undisguised military coup, then complaining loudly that people are being injured or killed now their side is losing.
Yesterday the MSM had no difficulty in calling the attempted coup what anybody with eyes and ears could see it plainly was, an attempted military coup.
Jimmy Carter supervised the previous Presidential elections and called Venezuela the most transparent elections in the world.

AbusesToilets

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I won't repeat my comment, I'll just say free and fair elections could have been sought rather than US sabre rattling telling the leader of another country to go. It was going to be bloody. The US couldn't care less about the man/woman on the street.

That's patently false.

Is it sabre rattling to call for a brutal leader to step aside? I'm no apologist for Trump or chickenhawks in his administration, but to act as though the US is wrong to look for a change in government is patently obtuse.

James Brown

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Is it sabre rattling to call for a brutal leader to step aside? I'm no apologist for Trump or chickenhawks in his administration, but to act as though the US is wrong to look for a change in government is patently obtuse.

Nope. Talking about having military close by and telling the elected leader to step down sure is.
I think the US is full of baloney and couldn't care less about the population, so yes, it's disingenuous. They're happy to support brutal leaders if theres money in it for the right people. If their man turns out to be cruel or indifferent towards the native population, the US won't care one bit.

AbusesToilets

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Nope. Talking about having military close by and telling the elected leader to step down sure is.
I think the US is full of baloney and couldn't care less about the population, so yes, it's disingenuous. They're happy to support brutal leaders if theres money in it for the right people. If their man turns out to be cruel or indifferent towards the native population, the US won't care one bit.

Do you think Putin and the Cubans are particularly concerned with respecting civil rights?

The US has a mixed history when it comes to propping up awful regimes, certainly in SA. However a large part of that was coloured by the Cold War and its attendant priorities.

The US rebuilt Europe and large parts of Asia, out of self interest as much as altruism. Would you have rejected those efforts too?

James Brown

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Do you think Putin and the Cubans are particularly concerned with respecting civil rights?

The US certainly has a mixed history when it comes to propping up awful regimes, certainly in SA. However a large part of that was coloured by the Cold War and its attendant priorities.

The US rebuilt Europe and large parts of Asia, out of self interest as much as altruism. Would you have rejected those efforts too?

Putin, no. The Cuban's likely not.
No. Completely different scenario in Europe though isn't it? Although those were different times and with Trump in the mix, I'd need look at any consequences, (army base, sweet deals etc.).

Cheerful Spring

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Why exactly are folks upset that Venezuelans are trying to overthrow Maduro? Near starvation conditions being inflicted upon the populace, Chavez and his successors have driven the country to the brink of collapse.

Why shouldn't the US support his ousting? Of course they want a more stable government installed, makes for better regional harmony. Doesn't make that at odds with what's better for Venezuelans.

There is no real evidence the Venezuelan population demands Maduro out. You hearing this narrative fromn politicians in the United states who are not even born there. Guido tried to oust Maduro yesterday and the military and majoriity of the population did not support him.

Guaido is not even known in Venezulela he was hand picked by the United States and opposition, the ordinary people never heard of him till he started appearing on TV. He went to an IVY league school in the United States and obvious he was handpicked to not bring democracy but to allow the United States to have it way and secure the oil for western companies.

Cheerful Spring

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Nope. Talking about having military close by and telling the elected leader to step down sure is.
I think the US is full of baloney and couldn't care less about the population, so yes, it's disingenuous. They're happy to support brutal leaders if theres money in it for the right people. If their man turns out to be cruel or indifferent towards the native population, the US won't care one bit.

Exactly Trump is happy to see thousands of civilians die in Yemen- he even blocked a congress resolution to stop the United States supporting the Saudi and UAE war. UN called the Yemen war the worst humanitarian crisis in the world and thats saying something.

Cheerful Spring

TeaBagMania wrote: »

it seems everyone is more excited about an opportunity to take a dig at the US than admitting Chaves and Maduro have been running the country into the ground for decades

What right has the US to recognise a politician as the leader of Venezuela when he never ran for election? They did not even wait and demand new elections, they just recognised Guaido as the president and even issued a threat they use the US military to oust Maduro. This is gangster politics. I thought we left this all behind after the Bush Presidency.

Maduro was elected fairly there no evidence he rigged the election. It not like he overthrow the previous government and put himself in power.

blackwhite

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

There is no real evidence the Venezuelan population demands Maduro out. You hearing this narrative fromn politicians in the United states who are not even born there. Guido tried to oust Maduro yesterday and the military and majoriity of the population did not support him.

Guaido is not even known in Venezulela he was hand picked by the United States and opposition, the ordinary people never heard of him till he started appearing on TV. He went to an IVY league school in the United States and obvious he was handpicked to not bring democracy but to allow the United States to have it way and secure the oil for western companies.

The people of Venezuela had never heard of the President of their National Assembly?

You should really do the barest of fact checks on the rubbish you blindly repost before repeating it on here.

Amazing how it’s posters who cheerleaded for the annexation of Crimea who are now supporting rigged elections in another state. Transparent as hell

Cheerful Spring

blackwhite wrote: »

The people of Venezuela had never heard of the President of their National Assembly?

You should really do the barest of fact checks on the rubbish you blindly repost before repeating it on here.

Amazing how it’s posters who cheerleaded for the annexation of Crimea who are now supporting rigged elections in another state. Transparent as hell

Since Jan 2019 when the crisis started in Venezuela . He was unknown figure before that. You trying to claim his populer when there no evidence for it. It easy to find supporters in a country of 31 million. The fact the majority of the population did not come out and supoort him and military sided with Maduro says something.

blackwhite

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Since Jan 2019 when the crisis started in Venezuela . He was unknown figure before that. You trying to claim his populer when there no evidence for it. It easy to find supporters in a country of 31 million. The fact the majority of the population did not come out and supoort him and military sided with Maduro says something.

I never said he was popular. Please stop telling lies

You claimed that the Venezuelan people had “never heard of him”. I assume you can back that up, or is that another piece of propaganda you are blindly repeating?

Do you really think people are stupid enough to believe that the President of the National Parliament isn’t relatively well know in their country? Pull the other one - not everyone swallows the latest Russia Today propaganda piece quite as blindly as you and your pals :rolleyes:

Cheerful Spring

blackwhite wrote: »

I never said he was popular. Please stop telling lies

You claimed that the Venezuelan people had “never heard of him”. I assume you can back that up, or is that another piece of propaganda you are blindly repeating?

Do you really think people are stupid enough to believe that the President of the National Parliament isn’t relatively well know in their country? Pull the other one - not everyone swallows the latest Russia Today propaganda piece quite as blindly as you and your pals :rolleyes:

I claiming there no evidence the majority of the Venzeulean people want him to be their president. Prove it, by all accounts Maduro still wins in polls taken since the crisis began 60-30 percentage. He may be known in a local area and won a election there before the crisis, but that does mean he is well known country wide to everyone.

You trying to claim he well known before 2018- 2019 and there no evidence he was. He got elected in Jan 2019, as the president of National Parliment, it hardly a ringing endorsement of his past experience. During a crisis he emerged and became President. Everyone knows who he is now, before it, he was just a public politician in Venezuela.

blackwhite

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I claiming there no evidence the majority of the Venzeulean people want him to be their president. Prove it, by all accounts Maduro still wins in polls taken since the crisis began 60-30 percentage. He may be known in a local area and won a election there before the crisis, but that does mean he is well known country wide to everyone.

You trying to claim he well known before 2018- 2019 and there no evidence he was. He got elected in Jan 2019, as the president of National Parliment, it hardly a ringing endorsement of his past experience. During a crisis he emerged and became President. Everyone knows who he is now, before it, he was just a public politician in Venezuela.

That’s not what you claimed in your original post. It’s there for everyone to see. But please keep exposing your own lies - exposes your for exactly what your agenda is here.

I’ll quote your original post again in case you’re struggling to keep track of your false claims?
I guess we can take your strawmanning as an admission that the below is utter lies. We know by now that it’s far too much to expect young to ever produce evidence to support such claims :rolleyes:

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Guaido is not even known in Venezulela he was hand picked by the United States and opposition, the ordinary people never heard of him till he started appearing on TV.

AbusesToilets

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-venezuela-in-crisis-democracy-is-the-escape-route-1.3877689?mode=amp

Timely piece from the Times this morning, giving a nice overview of how Venezuela found itself in the desperate state it's in. Hint : the US had little to do with it.

Franz Von Peppercorn

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Is it sabre rattling to call for a brutal leader to step aside? I'm no apologist for Trump or chickenhawks in his administration, but to act as though the US is wrong to look for a change in government is patently obtuse.

You are not an apologist for Trump or chickenhawks but you are supporting them in this coup. So you are an apologist.

The US is wrong to look for a change of government anyway without UN authorisation. It has no rights here except the rights of a bully or empire.

A lot of trump haters seem ok with his foreign policy.

Franz Von Peppercorn

AbusesToilets wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-venezuela-in-crisis-democracy-is-the-escape-route-1.3877689?mode=amp

Timely piece from the Times this morning, giving a nice overview of how Venezuela found itself in the desperate state it's in. Hint : the US had little to do with it.

So what?

Gatling

AbusesToilets wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-venezuela-in-crisis-democracy-is-the-escape-route-1.3877689?mode=amp

Timely piece from the Times this morning, giving a nice overview of how Venezuela found itself in the desperate state it's in. Hint : the US had little to do with it.

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who openly ignore the facts and bang the anti American drums while supporting other countries aggressions ,

AbusesToilets

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You are not an apologist for Trump or chickenhawks but you are supporting them in this coup. So you are an apologist.

The US is wrong to look for a change of government anyway without UN authorisation. It has no rights here except the rights of a bully or empire.

A lot of trump haters seem ok with his foreign policy.

That is a disgraceful attitude, frankly. This idea that the US has promulgated this uprising, as opposed to the desperate Venezuelans trying to oust a tyrant is, to use the phrase of your side, risible.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who openly ignore the facts and bang the anti American drums while supporting other countries aggressions ,

Sorry. Venezuela has a bad economy and the US has a right to instigate a coup?