Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

splinter65 · 23-04-2019 6:08pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

I fully respect and support your right to stand on a street and hand out banners and leaflets. I do not support your "right" to do so outside GP offices or maternity hospitals.
There is a time and place of everything. Know your audience.
Maternity hospitals and GP offices are not appropriate locations for you to "protest" something that has absolutely nothing to do with you.

As I said before, with a bit of mutual respect there is no need for either side to impose on those who don't agree with them, but you just can't see that.

As for the bolded, don't be so patronising. Your opinion is neither more valid nor important than mine just because you are older.
Don't flatter yourself.

But you simply don’t get to say which public spaces I can and cannot enter. There’s no point in even getting into a debate about it.
Once you dictate that I can’t stand in Holles St or over in the street outside the Coombe you’ll have set a precedent that will unravel the free society that people fought and died for us to enjoy.
The Taoiseach has conceded that even in the last few days.
It’s only your opinion that the right to life of the unborn has nothing to do with me. There are 700000 of us here in Ireland alone who don’t agree with you, maybe more. You’ll have your hands full trying to silence that volume of voices.

SusieBlue · 23-04-2019 6:31pm

splinter65 wrote: »

But you simply don’t get to say which public spaces I can and cannot enter. There’s no point in even getting into a debate about it.
Once you dictate that I can’t stand in Holles St or over in the street outside the Coombe you’ll have set a precedent that will unravel the free society that people fought and died for us to enjoy.
The Taoiseach has conceded that even in the last few days.
It’s only your opinion that the right to life of the unborn has nothing to do with me. There are 700000 of us here in Ireland alone who don’t agree with you, maybe more. You’ll have your hands full trying to silence that volume of voices.

No one is saying you can’t stand there. Who said anything about entering?
You can go wherever you please.
You just can’t protest wherever the mood takes you. Outside a maternity hospital is not an appropriate location to protest about abortion being wrong.
My right to avail of medical services without interference or harassment supersedes your right to pontificate about how you think you know what’s good for me better than I do.
It’s that simple.

Odhinn · 23-04-2019 6:44pm

splinter65 wrote: »

The government allowed itself to be dictated to be the Catholic Church because that’s what the people wanted right at that time.

....so you admit that there was no "opt out" clause for protestants, liberal catholics, non believers etc.

splinter65 wrote: »

Because it’s what people want right now the government is being dictated to by the liberal left... to the point where the Taoiseach is afraid to comment on the murder of all the Catholics in Sri Lanka (more Catholics were murdered then the Muslims in the mosque in NZ, twice as many) for fear of offending them.

You've evidence of this?

uptherebels · 23-04-2019 6:48pm

splinter65 wrote: »

But you simply don’t get to say which public spaces I can and cannot enter. There’s no point in even getting into a debate about it.
Once you dictate that I can’t stand in Holles St or over in the street outside the Coombe you’ll have set a precedent that will unravel the free society that people fought and died for us to enjoy.
The Taoiseach has conceded that even in the last few days.
It’s only your opinion that the right to life of the unborn has nothing to do with me. There are 700000 of us here in Ireland alone who don’t agree with you, maybe more. You’ll have your hands full trying to silence that volume of voices.

Nobody is trying to silence anyone, less of the persecution complex please.
You don't get to try and dictate what healthcare services others access. It's hilarious how you only take issue with restrictions when they affect you.

eviltwin · 23-04-2019 7:39pm

splinter65 wrote: »

But you simply don’t get to say which public spaces I can and cannot enter. There’s no point in even getting into a debate about it.
Once you dictate that I can’t stand in Holles St or over in the street outside the Coombe you’ll have set a precedent that will unravel the free society that people fought and died for us to enjoy.
The Taoiseach has conceded that even in the last few days.
It’s only your opinion that the right to life of the unborn has nothing to do with me. There are 700000 of us here in Ireland alone who don’t agree with you, maybe more. You’ll have your hands full trying to silence that volume of voices.

Your right. No one can stop you protesting outside a hospital or doctors office if you want. But don't be disingenuous about it. Be honest about the true intention, you don't give a damn about women -what woman in crisis would go anywhere near a person waving a prolife placard - your intention is to shame women, scare them and intimidate medical staff in the naive hope they will stop providing abortions.

end of the road · 23-04-2019 7:55pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Your right. No one can stop you protesting outside a hospital or doctors office if you want. But don't be disingenuous about it. Be honest about the true intention, you don't give a damn about women -what woman in crisis would go anywhere near a person waving a prolife placard - your intention is to shame women, scare them and intimidate medical staff in the naive hope they will stop providing abortions.

the protesters are 100% honest about their intention.their intention is not as you claim.

eviltwin · 23-04-2019 7:56pm

end of the road wrote: »

the protesters are 100% honest about their intention.their intention is not as you claim.

What's their intention?

end of the road · 23-04-2019 8:06pm

eviltwin wrote: »

What's their intention?

to highlight the cruelty and barbarity of abortion on demand. to show how unnecessary it is

ohnonotgmail · 23-04-2019 8:07pm

end of the road wrote: »

the protesters are 100% honest about their intention.their intention is not as you claim.

what evidence do you have to support that?

eviltwin · 23-04-2019 8:11pm

end of the road wrote: »

to highlight the cruelty and barbarity of abortion on demand. to show how unnecessary it is

And how is making that point to women end route to an abortion in any way helpful?

end of the road · 23-04-2019 8:13pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what evidence do you have to support that?

any time i have heard such people been

spoken to via various talk radio that is the intentions they state, with the opposites who claim otherwise being unable to show otherwise.

ohnonotgmail · 23-04-2019 8:13pm

end of the road wrote: »

to highlight the cruelty and barbarity of abortion on demand. to show how unnecessary it is

What evidence do you have to support that?

end of the road · 23-04-2019 8:16pm

eviltwin wrote: »

And how is making that point to women end route to an abortion in any way helpful?

presumably it might make at least 1 person see the reality of what they are doing. perhapse an actual protester would be the best to give you an answer however.

eviltwin · 23-04-2019 8:18pm

end of the road wrote: »

presumably it might make at least 1 person see the reality of what they are doing. perhapse an actual protester would be the best to give you an answer however.

How does some randomer waving a placard help a woman in crisis?

ohnonotgmail · 23-04-2019 8:20pm

end of the road wrote: »

presumably it might make at least 1 person see the reality of what they are doing. perhapse an actual protester would be the best to give you an answer however.

You seem very clued in on their intentions. What evidence do you have to support what you are sasying?

end of the road · 23-04-2019 8:21pm

eviltwin wrote: »

How does some randomer waving a placard help a woman in crisis?

perhapse it might make them realise the reality that killing an unborn human being who is healthy, and when the mother's life isn't in danger, is completely wrong and unjustifiable.

eviltwin · 23-04-2019 8:24pm

end of the road wrote: »

perhapse it might make them realise the reality that killing an unborn human being who is healthy, and when the mother's life isn't in danger, is completely wrong and unjustifiable.

So you've no interest in addressing the issues that led them to that decision, you just want them to think their a baby killer. At least you're honest about it

amcalester · 23-04-2019 8:26pm

end of the road wrote: »

presumably it might make at least 1 person see the reality of what they are doing. perhapse an actual protester would be the best to give you an answer however.

You’ve ignored my question a few times, usually that means that you’ve been caught out by your own contradictory posts.

Here it is again.

The reason I’m asking is your answer (or lack of) goes a long to determining your bona fides.

amcalester wrote: »

What about crossing a picket line as a form of protest? Would you respect a persons right to do that?

Or do you still think such a person should expect to be met with physical force to stop them crossing the picket?

end of the road · 23-04-2019 8:32pm

eviltwin wrote: »

So you've no interest in addressing the issues that led them to that decision, you just want them to think their a baby killer. At least you're honest about it

that is not correct. it is you who has made that claim which is inaccurate.

amcalester wrote: »

You’ve ignored my question a few times, usually that means that you’ve been caught out by your own contradictory posts.

Here it is again.

The reason I’m asking is your answer (or lack of) goes a long to determining your bona fides.

i have ignored it because it's irrelevant and is a line of discussion going nowhere. nothing to do with your claim of me supposebly being caught out by contradictions which hasn't happened. so i will not be answering this specific question as it is not abortion related.

eviltwin · 23-04-2019 8:34pm

end of the road wrote: »

that is not correct. it is you who has made that claim which is inaccurate..

So explain to me how an "abortion is murder" placard is of any help to the woman in crisis

ohnonotgmail · 23-04-2019 8:35pm

end of the road wrote: »

that is not correct. it is you who has made that claim which is inaccurate.

i have ignored it because it's irrelevant and is a line of going nowhere. nothing to do with your claim of me supposebly being caught out by contradictions which hasn't happened. so i will not be answering this specific question as it is not abortion related.

What evidence do you have to support any of what you are saying?

Cabaal · 23-04-2019 8:35pm

splinter65 wrote: »

You’ll have your hands full trying to silence that volume of voices.

You honestly think that many people are will to protest outside GPs and hospitals?if you do then you are in cloud cuckoo land.

Most people see the zealots outside hospitals picketing with rosary etc as nut bags. They are a very small minority fringe group.

amcalester · 23-04-2019 8:38pm

end of the road wrote: »

i have ignored it because it's irrelevant and is a line of discussion going nowhere. nothing to do with your claim of me supposebly being caught out by contradictions which hasn't happened. so i will not be answering this specific question as it is not abortion related.

That’s very disingenuous, the topic also includes protests and you are against limiting individuals or groups right to protest, except when there is a strike involved.

You have opposing viewpoints depending on the situation. That’s a contradiction.

Same as your view that abortion is wrong, except in cases of rape. Or if it happens abroad.

Very inconsistent viewpoints.

Of course I could be wrong and you do support people’s right to cross a picket.

SusieBlue · 23-04-2019 8:40pm

end of the road wrote: »

presumably it might make at least 1 person see the reality of what they are doing. perhapse an actual protester would be the best to give you an answer however.

Ah yes, cause all these silly women signed up for abortions with no idea what they were getting themselves into and did no research on the procedure whatsoever.
They probably thought it was the latest beauty treatment lols!

But luckily you’ll be standing nearby on hand to inform them of the ‘reality’ that they’re evil murderers.
Saving them from themselves, because they don’t know any better and are incapable of making an informed choice about their own medical care.

You and your ilk are modern day saints, really.

ohnonotgmail · 23-04-2019 8:40pm

amcalester wrote: »

That’s very disingenuous, the topic also includes protests and you are against limiting individuals or groups right to protest, except when there is a strike involved.

You have opposing viewpoints depending on the situation. That’s a contradiction.

Same as your view that abortion is wrong, except in cases of rape. Or if it happens abroad.

Very inconsistent viewpoints.

Of course I could be wrong and you do support people’s right to cross a picket.

the word you are looking for is hypocritical

end of the road · 23-04-2019 9:02pm

eviltwin wrote: »

So explain to me how an "abortion is murder" placard is of any help to the woman in crisis

i answered that in post 117.

amcalester wrote: »

That’s very disingenuous, the topic also includes protests and you are against limiting individuals or groups right to protest, except when there is a strike involved.

You have opposing viewpoints depending on the situation. That’s a contradiction.

Same as your view that abortion is wrong, except in cases of rape. Or if it happens abroad.

Very inconsistent viewpoints.

Of course I could be wrong and you do support people’s right to cross a picket.

abortion that happens abroad is 100% wrong. i have never stated otherwise.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Ah yes, cause all these silly women signed up for abortions with no idea what they were getting themselves into and did no research on the procedure whatsoever.
They probably thought it was the latest beauty treatment lols!

But luckily you’ll be standing nearby on hand to inform them of the ‘reality’ that they’re evil murderers.
Saving them from themselves, because they don’t know any better and are incapable of making an informed choice about their own medical care.

You and your ilk are modern day saints, really.

i am not involved in the protests myself. nobody is a saint. however yes i do believe the protesters simply wish to right a wrong and are mostly good people at heart.

amcalester · 23-04-2019 9:07pm

end of the road wrote: »

abortion that happens abroad is 100% wrong. i have never stated otherwise.

Apologies I was under the impression, and I may be remembering it incorrectly, that you supported a woman’s right to travel for the purposes of acquiring an abortion.

But regardless, you say 100% wrong, only you’ll make an exception for rape cases.

end of the road · 23-04-2019 9:13pm

amcalester wrote: »

Apologies I was under the impression, and I may be remembering it incorrectly, that you supported a woman’s right to travel for the purposes of acquiring an abortion.

But regardless, you say 100% wrong, only you’ll make an exception for rape cases.

no it is FFA cases or where the mother's life is in danger. i separate those out from abortion on demand.

23-04-2019 9:18pm

end of the road wrote: »

that is not correct. it is you who has made that claim which is inaccurate.

i have ignored it because it's irrelevant and is a line of discussion going nowhere. nothing to do with your claim of me supposebly being caught out by contradictions which hasn't happened. so i will not be answering this specific question as it is not abortion related.

It's very much abortion related, in terms of your posts, but you don't seem to have the answer or don't want to answer.

robarmstrong · 23-04-2019 9:34pm

end of the road wrote: »

perhapse it might make them realise the reality that killing an unborn human being who is healthy, and when the mother's life isn't in danger, is completely wrong and unjustifiable.

So what about a healthy unborn human being who was conceived out of rape, why are you so “welcoming” (in layman’s terms) of a termination in the case of rape?

Why does the scenario of conception differentiate your views on abortion when both mother and unborn are healthy?

Why is the woman who aborts a healthy child conceived out of consensual intercourse a killer, yet the woman who aborts a healthy child out of rape, not a killer?

SusieBlue · 23-04-2019 9:56pm

end of the road wrote: »

i am not involved in the protests myself. nobody is a saint. however yes i do believe the protesters simply wish to right a wrong and are mostly good people at heart.

How totally patronizing.
The women seeking terminations don’t need the intervention of any soapboxers.
It’s no ones business except the woman’s and nobody has the authority to determine whether the choice she is making is wrong or right except her.

They should simply live their own lives as they see fit and stop involving themselves in other peoples private business.

uptherebels · 23-04-2019 9:59pm

end of the road wrote: »

perhapse it might make them realise the reality that killing an unborn human being who is healthy, and when the mother's life isn't in danger, is completely wrong and unjustifiable.

You need to understand the difference between your opinion and reality

uptherebels · 23-04-2019 10:01pm

end of the road wrote: »

i answered that in post 117.

abortion that happens abroad is 100% wrong. i have never stated otherwise.

i am not involved in the protests myself. nobody is a saint. however yes i do believe the protesters simply wish to right a wrong and are mostly good people at heart.

Then they would be protesting outside the dail, where the people with the power to "right the wrong" are.

end of the road · 23-04-2019 10:03pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

How totally patronizing.
The women seeking terminations don’t need the intervention of any soapboxers.
It’s no ones business except the woman’s and nobody has the authority to determine whether the choice she is making is wrong or right except her.

They should simply live their own lives as they see fit and stop involving themselves in other peoples private business.

obviously that is not possible given the life of an unborn human being is being ended, most likely unnecessarily. while such continues to happen there will be people who are opposed to it. that is just how it is

uptherebels · 23-04-2019 10:03pm

amcalester wrote: »

Apologies I was under the impression, and I may be remembering it incorrectly, that you supported a woman’s right to travel for the purposes of acquiring an abortion.

But regardless, you say 100% wrong, only you’ll make an exception for rape cases.

That poster has already clarified that rape isn't a reason for an abortion.

end of the road · 23-04-2019 10:05pm

uptherebels wrote: »

Then they would be protesting outside the dail, where the people with the power to "right the wrong" are.

they can do that as well if that is what they wish to do.

23-04-2019 10:08pm

uptherebels wrote: »

That poster has already clarified that rape isn't a reason for an abortion.

In their opinion, but it's also their opinion that their views take precedence over the health care of everyone else along with their freedom of choice.

robarmstrong · 23-04-2019 10:08pm

uptherebels wrote: »

That poster has already clarified that rape isn't a reason for an abortion.

The poster in particular has flip flopped numerous times on actually making a decision on "allowing" abortion in rape and incestuous scenarios, for very, very obvious reasons, they are declining to actually commit 100% to a statement.

amcalester · 23-04-2019 10:09pm

uptherebels wrote: »

That poster has already clarified that rape isn't a reason for an abortion.

Yes, seems I got that wrong.

It doesn’t explain his contradictory views on protesting.

robarmstrong · 23-04-2019 10:09pm

end of the road wrote: »

perhapse it might make them realise the reality that killing an unborn human being who is healthy, and when the mother's life isn't in danger, is completely wrong and unjustifiable in my opinion

Fixed your post.

uptherebels · 23-04-2019 10:12pm

DubInMeath wrote: »

In their opinion, but it's also their opinion that their views take precedence over the health care of everyone else along with their freedom of choice.

sorry i meant to say in their opinion, i don't agree with it.

uptherebels · 23-04-2019 10:13pm

end of the road wrote: »

they can do that as well if that is what they wish to do.

but why aren't they? because they cant try and impede access if camped outside the dail;)

SusieBlue · 23-04-2019 10:14pm

end of the road wrote: »

obviously that is not possible given the life of an unborn human being is being ended, most likely unnecessarily. while such continues to happen there will be people who are opposed to it. that is just how it is

Talk about self righteousness.
You can oppose it all you want, you just can’t interfere or harass people who choose differently to you.
They aren’t breaking any laws and are procuring a legal, standard medical procedure.
That’s just how it is.

If you must protest, which I totally support, do so on O’Connell St, Dáil Éireann or outside your local TD office.
Leave the women & couples outside maternity hospitals & GP clinics alone.

The fact that you even feel entitled to have a say in other peoples private matters is astounding.

uptherebels · 23-04-2019 10:15pm

amcalester wrote: »

Yes, seems I got that wrong.

It doesn’t explain his contradictory views on protesting.

They have also claimed never to have contradicted themselves in all their posts on boards:eek::eek:

robarmstrong · 23-04-2019 10:16pm

EOTR - if you say "abortion is murder", you're saying that it's the unlawful killing of another human being, correct?

Except abortion is legal and legislated for, with the definition of human being not applying to those who are unborn.

How is it murder? Is it a fact that it's murder (i.e it is defined and set out in the constitution or law that terminating an unborn is murder) or is it your opinion that it is murder?

If it is in fact murder, how come we aren't arresting all of these murderers?

amcalester · 23-04-2019 10:22pm

uptherebels wrote: »

They have also claimed never to have contradicted themselves in all their posts on boards:eek::eek:

I honestly believe that that poster is a very dishonest poster and posts blatant contradictory statements and then when called out on it either refuses to engage or runs away and hides.

end of the road · 23-04-2019 10:28pm

uptherebels wrote: »

but why aren't they? because they cant try and impede access if camped outside the dail

i wouldn't think that is the reason, assuming they have decided they won't protest outside the dail. i think you would be best putting the questions to someone involved in the protests who could give you a definite answer.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Talk about self righteousness.
You can oppose it all you want, you just can’t interfere or harass people who choose differently to you.
They aren’t breaking any laws and are procuring a legal, standard medical procedure.
That’s just how it is.

If you must protest, which I totally support, do so on O’Connell St, Dáil Éireann or outside your local TD office.
Leave the women & couples outside maternity hospitals & GP clinics alone.

The fact that you even feel entitled to have a say in other peoples private matters is astounding.

i don't interfere with or harass anyone nor am i involved in the protests. however people who wish to protest an issue will generally protest outside the buildings where the issue they are against is taking place, that is standard protest practice whether one likes it or agrees with it.

uptherebels · 23-04-2019 11:18pm

end of the road wrote: »

i wouldn't think that is the reason, assuming they have decided they won't protest outside the dail. i think you would be best putting the questions to someone involved in the protests who could give you a definite answer.

But yet you claim they are 100% honest about their intentions? So while not being a protestor you know with certainty their intentions for acting but haven't a clue about their inactions?

end of the road · 23-04-2019 11:28pm

uptherebels wrote: »

But yet you claim they are 100% honest about their intentions? So while not being a protestor you know with certainty their intentions for acting but haven't a clue about their inactions?

yes . as i see it, the majority of people get involved in protest movements for reasons of good. they feel strongly about the issue and want to change things. they care and want to bring about the greater good.

volchitsa · 23-04-2019 11:44pm

end of the road wrote: »

yes . as i see it, the majority of people get involved in protest movements for reasons of good. they feel strongly about the issue and want to change things. they care and want to bring about the greater good.

The white supremacists who wanted to stop black children being allowed into "white" schools in the US would have thought that described them to a T.

Doesn't mean it's true though. What they are doing is as important as why they think they are doing it, and intimidating and demeaning women at a vulnerable moment in their lives makes that a dubious call.

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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