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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

robindch

...continuing on from previous threads on abortion (abortion part 1, part 2 and part 3).

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[Deleted User]

splinter65 wrote: »

Approaching someone going into a public building and hassling them and possibly frightening them is totally unacceptable and if you see someone doing that you should take it upon yourself to stand up and be counted by intervening. The person doing the hassling needs to be excluded from any further protests or pickets.
I haven’t heard of anyone currently protesting abortions here in Ireland doing that though, if you see it you should go to the defense of the person being hassled immediately.
Respectfully standing on a public street with banners and leaflets however is totally acceptable and anyone that wants to protest anything that they think is wrong is free to do so.

Well it's a good thing that there's nothing in between those options.
:rolleyes:

splinter65

SusieBlue wrote: »

You don't have to support it, you just can't interfere with it. Disagree with abortion all you want but leave those who make that choice for themselves alone. You have no right to impose your own beliefs on their private medical matters.

I have every right, as have you,to stand on a public street with a banner or leaflets and protest whatever I like.
It’s been done throughout the free world for as long as there has been a free world and will continue forever.
The fact that you don’t agree with my protest is neither here nor there.
It’s all part of living in a free country.
I’m amazed at how what I suspect is a lot of quite young people, don’t get that.

robarmstrong

splinter65 wrote: »

Approaching someone going into a public building and hassling them and possibly frightening them is totally unacceptable and if you see someone doing that you should take it upon yourself to stand up and be counted by intervening. The person doing the hassling needs to be excluded from any further protests or pickets.
I haven’t heard of anyone currently protesting abortions here in Ireland doing that though, if you see it you should go to the defense of the person being hassled immediately.
Respectfully standing on a public street with banners and leaflets however is totally acceptable and anyone that wants to protest anything that they think is wrong is free to do so.

Thank you for that, I see you haven't heard of anyone protesting that has carried on like that, but the very same protesters have blasted misrepresented images into the faces of women who are miscarrying, that which I hope you can agree with me on, is completely unacceptable.

Leaflets and banners is fine, but graphic imagery and the sensitivity of it's location (along with the constant misrepresentation and intentional deception) is completely off-limits. During the campaign those images were posted outside primary schools, which I again hope you can see as being inappropriate.

SusieBlue

splinter65 wrote: »

I have every right, as have you,to stand on a public street with a banner or leaflets and protest whatever I like.
It’s been done throughout the free world for as long as there has been a free world and will continue forever.
The fact that you don’t agree with my protest is neither here nor there.
It’s all part of living in a free country.
I’m amazed at how what I suspect is a lot of quite young people, don’t get that.

I fully respect and support your right to stand on a street and hand out banners and leaflets. I do not support your "right" to do so outside GP offices or maternity hospitals.
There is a time and place of everything. Know your audience.
Maternity hospitals and GP offices are not appropriate locations for you to "protest" something that has absolutely nothing to do with you.

As I said before, with a bit of mutual respect there is no need for either side to impose on those who don't agree with them, but you just can't see that.

As for the bolded, don't be so patronising. Your opinion is neither more valid nor important than mine just because you are older.
Don't flatter yourself.

amcalester

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I may be misrembering EOTRs previous posts on pickets but i seem to remember that he had no issue with using violence against those who cross picket lines.

That's my recollection of his posts as well, but the violence aspect wasn't really what I was curious about.

It's more how he squares the circle between his opposing viewpoints that people should not be allowed protest a strike by crossing a picket, and opposing the setting up of exclusion zones around hospitals as this would be a limitation on the right to protest.

Now to be fair to end o he did say that he had changed his mind in relation to baton charging people protesting a concert, so again, I'd ask him if this stretches to those protesting a strike?

.......

splinter65 wrote: »

I have every right, as have you,to stand on a public street with a banner or leaflets and protest whatever I like.
It’s been done throughout the free world for as long as there has been a free world and will continue forever.
The fact that you don’t agree with my protest is neither here nor there.
It’s all part of living in a free country.
I’m amazed at how what I suspect is a lot of quite young people, don’t get that.

No no no no no.

As has been repeatedly explained to you - your rights cannot and do not infringe on my rights.

You can protest. On a public street. But not if that public street is outside a doctors office or hospital. I have the right to medical care without being harassed by your ilk. Go protest outside government offices rather than bothering innocent people on the street with your bile - which you only want to do to try and shame women - so you can knock off the "free country" nonsense.

And knock off the ageism too, it just makes you sound even worse than you already do.

end of the road

King Mob wrote: »

And for something you claim to not care about, you certainly are posting a lot about how you don't care about it and how you're not going to address it.

But this is par for the course. Again, your posting history betrays you.

Your concern about the right to protest is not genuine.
People are going to bring that up when you base your arguments on this concern.

it is 100% genuine.

volchitsa wrote: »

It's not actually about abortion here either. It's about freedom of expression, ie we're no longer discussing what we think of abortion, but more about the right to protest about it.

Are you saying the rules for freedom of expression should be different when abortion is concerned and if so, what other domains would you make exceptions for and why?

no they shouldn't be different at all. however if we are discussing protesting then i think it might possibly be better to talk about it in terms of abortion to keep the thread as close to the topic as is possible?

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

it is 100% genuine.

All evidence and experience says otherwise however.
You asking us to take your word on it makes it even more suspect.

Cabaal

King Mob wrote: »

All evidence and experience says otherwise however.
You asking us to take your word on it makes it even more suspect.

I know I won't be,
it's utterly meaningless

[Deleted User]

splinter65 wrote: »

I have every right, as have you,to stand on a public street with a banner or leaflets and protest whatever I like.
It’s been done throughout the free world for as long as there has been a free world and will continue forever.
The fact that you don’t agree with my protest is neither here nor there.
It’s all part of living in a free country.
I’m amazed at how what I suspect is a lot of quite young people, don’t get that.

Well my dad is in his late sixties and voted repeal, my Aunt who is in her Seventies also voted for repeal. The only person in my family who voted no that I know of is a cousin and her husband, who used to be a member of youth defense, both are in their fifties, so age has nothing to do with it as you claim.

I won't repeat my dad's opinion on protesters word for word as I'd be banned for life but basically religious bigotry and personal interface in a free country figures highly.

I have to say that your bigotry is showing again with your earlier post about Sri Lanka.

splinter65

SusieBlue wrote: »

I fully respect and support your right to stand on a street and hand out banners and leaflets. I do not support your "right" to do so outside GP offices or maternity hospitals.
There is a time and place of everything. Know your audience.
Maternity hospitals and GP offices are not appropriate locations for you to "protest" something that has absolutely nothing to do with you.

As I said before, with a bit of mutual respect there is no need for either side to impose on those who don't agree with them, but you just can't see that.

As for the bolded, don't be so patronising. Your opinion is neither more valid nor important than mine just because you are older.
Don't flatter yourself.

But you simply don’t get to say which public spaces I can and cannot enter. There’s no point in even getting into a debate about it.
Once you dictate that I can’t stand in Holles St or over in the street outside the Coombe you’ll have set a precedent that will unravel the free society that people fought and died for us to enjoy.
The Taoiseach has conceded that even in the last few days.
It’s only your opinion that the right to life of the unborn has nothing to do with me. There are 700000 of us here in Ireland alone who don’t agree with you, maybe more. You’ll have your hands full trying to silence that volume of voices.

SusieBlue

splinter65 wrote: »

But you simply don’t get to say which public spaces I can and cannot enter. There’s no point in even getting into a debate about it.
Once you dictate that I can’t stand in Holles St or over in the street outside the Coombe you’ll have set a precedent that will unravel the free society that people fought and died for us to enjoy.
The Taoiseach has conceded that even in the last few days.
It’s only your opinion that the right to life of the unborn has nothing to do with me. There are 700000 of us here in Ireland alone who don’t agree with you, maybe more. You’ll have your hands full trying to silence that volume of voices.

No one is saying you can’t stand there. Who said anything about entering?
You can go wherever you please.
You just can’t protest wherever the mood takes you. Outside a maternity hospital is not an appropriate location to protest about abortion being wrong.
My right to avail of medical services without interference or harassment supersedes your right to pontificate about how you think you know what’s good for me better than I do.
It’s that simple.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

The government allowed itself to be dictated to be the Catholic Church because that’s what the people wanted right at that time.

....so you admit that there was no "opt out" clause for protestants, liberal catholics, non believers etc.

splinter65 wrote: »

Because it’s what people want right now the government is being dictated to by the liberal left... to the point where the Taoiseach is afraid to comment on the murder of all the Catholics in Sri Lanka (more Catholics were murdered then the Muslims in the mosque in NZ, twice as many) for fear of offending them.

You've evidence of this?

uptherebels

splinter65 wrote: »

But you simply don’t get to say which public spaces I can and cannot enter. There’s no point in even getting into a debate about it.
Once you dictate that I can’t stand in Holles St or over in the street outside the Coombe you’ll have set a precedent that will unravel the free society that people fought and died for us to enjoy.
The Taoiseach has conceded that even in the last few days.
It’s only your opinion that the right to life of the unborn has nothing to do with me. There are 700000 of us here in Ireland alone who don’t agree with you, maybe more. You’ll have your hands full trying to silence that volume of voices.

Nobody is trying to silence anyone, less of the persecution complex please.
You don't get to try and dictate what healthcare services others access. It's hilarious how you only take issue with restrictions when they affect you.

eviltwin

splinter65 wrote: »

But you simply don’t get to say which public spaces I can and cannot enter. There’s no point in even getting into a debate about it.
Once you dictate that I can’t stand in Holles St or over in the street outside the Coombe you’ll have set a precedent that will unravel the free society that people fought and died for us to enjoy.
The Taoiseach has conceded that even in the last few days.
It’s only your opinion that the right to life of the unborn has nothing to do with me. There are 700000 of us here in Ireland alone who don’t agree with you, maybe more. You’ll have your hands full trying to silence that volume of voices.

Your right. No one can stop you protesting outside a hospital or doctors office if you want. But don't be disingenuous about it. Be honest about the true intention, you don't give a damn about women -what woman in crisis would go anywhere near a person waving a prolife placard - your intention is to shame women, scare them and intimidate medical staff in the naive hope they will stop providing abortions.

end of the road

eviltwin wrote: »

Your right. No one can stop you protesting outside a hospital or doctors office if you want. But don't be disingenuous about it. Be honest about the true intention, you don't give a damn about women -what woman in crisis would go anywhere near a person waving a prolife placard - your intention is to shame women, scare them and intimidate medical staff in the naive hope they will stop providing abortions.

the protesters are 100% honest about their intention.their intention is not as you claim.

eviltwin

end of the road wrote: »

the protesters are 100% honest about their intention.their intention is not as you claim.

What's their intention?

end of the road

eviltwin wrote: »

What's their intention?

to highlight the cruelty and barbarity of abortion on demand. to show how unnecessary it is

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

the protesters are 100% honest about their intention.their intention is not as you claim.

what evidence do you have to support that?

eviltwin

end of the road wrote: »

to highlight the cruelty and barbarity of abortion on demand. to show how unnecessary it is

And how is making that point to women end route to an abortion in any way helpful?

end of the road

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what evidence do you have to support that?

any time i have heard such people been

spoken to via various talk radio that is the intentions they state, with the opposites who claim otherwise being unable to show otherwise.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

to highlight the cruelty and barbarity of abortion on demand. to show how unnecessary it is

What evidence do you have to support that?

end of the road

eviltwin wrote: »

And how is making that point to women end route to an abortion in any way helpful?

presumably it might make at least 1 person see the reality of what they are doing. perhapse an actual protester would be the best to give you an answer however.

eviltwin

end of the road wrote: »

presumably it might make at least 1 person see the reality of what they are doing. perhapse an actual protester would be the best to give you an answer however.

How does some randomer waving a placard help a woman in crisis?

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

presumably it might make at least 1 person see the reality of what they are doing. perhapse an actual protester would be the best to give you an answer however.

You seem very clued in on their intentions. What evidence do you have to support what you are sasying?

end of the road

eviltwin wrote: »

How does some randomer waving a placard help a woman in crisis?

perhapse it might make them realise the reality that killing an unborn human being who is healthy, and when the mother's life isn't in danger, is completely wrong and unjustifiable.

eviltwin

end of the road wrote: »

perhapse it might make them realise the reality that killing an unborn human being who is healthy, and when the mother's life isn't in danger, is completely wrong and unjustifiable.

So you've no interest in addressing the issues that led them to that decision, you just want them to think their a baby killer. At least you're honest about it

amcalester

end of the road wrote: »

presumably it might make at least 1 person see the reality of what they are doing. perhapse an actual protester would be the best to give you an answer however.

You’ve ignored my question a few times, usually that means that you’ve been caught out by your own contradictory posts.

Here it is again.

The reason I’m asking is your answer (or lack of) goes a long to determining your bona fides.

amcalester wrote: »

What about crossing a picket line as a form of protest? Would you respect a persons right to do that?

Or do you still think such a person should expect to be met with physical force to stop them crossing the picket?

end of the road

eviltwin wrote: »

So you've no interest in addressing the issues that led them to that decision, you just want them to think their a baby killer. At least you're honest about it

that is not correct. it is you who has made that claim which is inaccurate.

amcalester wrote: »

You’ve ignored my question a few times, usually that means that you’ve been caught out by your own contradictory posts.

Here it is again.

The reason I’m asking is your answer (or lack of) goes a long to determining your bona fides.

i have ignored it because it's irrelevant and is a line of discussion going nowhere. nothing to do with your claim of me supposebly being caught out by contradictions which hasn't happened. so i will not be answering this specific question as it is not abortion related.

eviltwin

end of the road wrote: »

that is not correct. it is you who has made that claim which is inaccurate..

So explain to me how an "abortion is murder" placard is of any help to the woman in crisis