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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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    #2342
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    aloooof wrote: »
    Can you point me to that thread? Cos I haven't come across it here.


    The Munster thread....we have comments like "Best 9 in the country" etc etc.....


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    #2343
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    The Munster thread....we have comments like "Best 9 in the country" etc etc.....

    Your claim was that posters were "crying about a exNZ international not let sign another contract."

    Not one poster suggested he should be resigned, just that they are sad to see him go as he was such a good player for us.

    You seem to have a real blind spot when it comes to Munster and scrum halves.


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    #2344
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    As per the podcast, one player in Ireland squad under 30. come on now that is a terrible return.



    Are we saying that out of Limerick and Cork city and all the surrounding counties Munster are only able to get 1 player under 30?


    That has nothing to do with Leinster......

    Maybe it's not a terrible return, but the reality of the way the game is in Ireland right now?

    Since there are a finite number of spots in any Ireland squad, it's all relative. Ultimately the bar for getting into Ireland squads has increased significantly over what it was even a decade ago.

    Never before has there been one province churning out talent like Leinster have, so maybe when we're quick to chastise other provinces for their low numbers, it's not a case that they've got a lot worse than they used to be, but that Leinster have got so much better and their academy graduates will be the ones dominating Ireland squads?


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    #2345
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    awec wrote: »
    So forever then.

    yes.. thats professional sport


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    #2346
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    awec wrote: »
    Maybe it's not a terrible return, but the reality of the way the game is in Ireland right now?

    Since there are a finite number of spots in any Ireland squad, it's all relative. Ultimately the bar for getting into Ireland squads has increased significantly over what it was even a decade ago.

    Never before has there been one province churning out talent like Leinster have, so maybe when we're quick to chastise other provinces for their low numbers, it's not a case that they've got a lot worse than they used to be, but that Leinster have got so much better and their academy graduates will be the ones dominating Ireland squads?


    That's just an excuse. Sorry but are we saying that no Munster or Ulster school is able to produce players anymore? its not so long ago Zebo/POM/Murray etc all came out of Munster. Ulster the same have always produced players.


    Pointing to Leinster and saying it's their fault is an excuse. Provinces are just sitting back and using excuses.



    If you look at Leinster, it is one school which has produced a lot of the talent recently. Are we saying that the other provinces haven't one school to work with?


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    #2347
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    That's just an excuse. Sorry but are we saying that no Munster or Ulster school is able to produce players anymore? its not so long ago Zebo/POM/Murray etc all came out of Munster. Ulster the same have always produced players.


    Pointing to Leinster and saying it's their fault is an excuse. Provinces are just sitting back and using excuses.



    If you look at Leinster, it is one school which has produced a lot of the talent recently. Are we saying that the other provinces haven't one school to work with?

    It's not just an excuse, are you reading my posts at all? I didn't say they aren't producing players, the point is they are not producing players that are as good as the players Leinster can produce, so they don't make Ireland squads.

    And Ulster has no fee paying schools. Zero. There is no school with money being pumped into it by parents churning out what are essentially professional athletes. Ulster schools have to work with what the Ulster Branch can afford to give them, which is a finite amount of money and obviously a lot less than Leinster schools.

    Munster has a few fee paying rugby schools, and Leinster has loads.


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    #2348
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    At the moment, correct me if I'm wrong, these are the current central contracts:
    June 2022 - Murray, Henshaw
    June 2021 - Henderson, Furlong, Stander, O'Mahony, Sexton, Earls, Healy
    June 2020 - Toner, Kearney
    Nov 2019 - Jack McGrath, O'Brien, Best

    I would expect upgraded contracts by June 2020:
    Ryan, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale

    It's too far into the future now but I would expect upgraded contracts by June 2021 all going well:
    Scannell, Van der Flier, Larmour, Porter, Conway, Carbery.


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    #2349
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    thats a fair point about the player welfare.. i suppose it is just more in your face in regards to the irish first teamers and the lack of provincial games they play. for example i cant see the IRFU having much influence in ulster in regards to the amount of games mcclousky, marshall, gilroy etc play.

    in regard to leinster and their foreign players... well leinster have significantly less NIQs than other provinces, so its doesnt make any sense to try to argue that by having more players on CC leinster has more money to entice NIQ players. nucifora has to sign off on every singing anyway.
    Tomane is actually a pretty poor example of how cc savings should be spent.
    Ulster have carter and coetzee and i would be very surprises they are on less of a wedge than tomane.

    its not a level playing field because leinster develop such high quality players. simple as. As long as leinster are feeding the provinces players in lieu of the provinces developing their won, it will remain to be an unequal playing field.

    Connacht (5): Jarrad Butler, Colby Fainga'a, David Horwitz, Kyle Godwin, John Porch

    Munster (3-5): Keynan Knox, Chris Cloete, Arno Botha, Alby Mathewson (gone after next game), Jed Holloway (2-month deal, so probably gone after next game too)

    Leinster (4): Roman Salanoa, Scott Fardy, Joe Tomane, James Lowe

    Ulster (3): Sam Carter, Marcel Coetzee, Matt Faddes (talk that they're signing an SA hooker to their academy, but not sure about that)

    Leinster have "significantly less" NIQs? Am I missing something?


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    #2350
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,284 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    At the moment, correct me if I'm wrong, these are the current central contracts:
    June 2022 - Murray, Henshaw
    June 2021 - Henderson, Furlong, Stander, O'Mahony, Sexton, Earls, Healy
    June 2020 - Toner, Kearney
    Nov 2019 - Jack McGrath, O'Brien, Best

    I would expect upgraded contracts by June 2020:
    Ryan, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale

    It's too far into the future now but I would expect upgraded contracts by June 2021 all going well:
    Scannell, Van der Flier, Larmour, Porter, Conway, Carbery.

    Did Kearney not come off one last year and go onto a provincial contract?


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    #2351
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    salmocab wrote: »
    Did Kearney not come off one last year and go onto a provincial contract?

    Nah was a one year extension with the IRFU.


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    #2352
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Richie_Rich89 wrote: »
    Connacht (5): Jarrad Butler, Colby Fainga'a, David Horwitz, Kyle Godwin, John Porch

    Munster (3-5): Keynan Knox, Chris Cloete, Arno Botha, Alby Mathewson (gone after next game), Jed Holloway (2-month deal, so probably gone after next game too)

    Leinster (4): Roman Salanoa, Scott Fardy, Joe Tomane, James Lowe

    Ulster (3): Sam Carter, Marcel Coetzee, Matt Faddes (talk that they're signing an SA hooker to their academy, but not sure about that)

    Leinster have "significantly less" NIQs? Am I missing something?

    yes
    salanoa is not in the senior squad and Lowe is a project player, soon to be IQ
    so 2 NIQ

    ulster also have Milasinovich in their senior squad, bringing them to 4


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    #2353
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    yes
    salanoa is not in the senior squad and Lowe is a project player, soon to be IQ
    so 2 NIQ

    ulster also have Milasinovich in their senior squad, bringing them to 4

    Lowe has to wait 12 months so still very much NIQ.
    Milasinovich is Irish Qualified.
    Salanoa has played for Leinster this season
    https://www.the42.ie/leo-cullen-leinster-coventry-4771876-Aug2019/


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    #2354
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Instead of pointing at Leinster and crying would people not look at what is going on in their own province???

    Did they all of a sudden shut down every school and academy in Ireland outside of Leinster?

    Or is it just a pile of excuses?
    everyone was going on about small resources roscrea had(have) when they won leinster senior schools cup a few years back but that's still far above anything in other provinces.
    Very difficult to compete with leinster who have most minis, youths, schools players as well as
    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Maybe 10-15 years ago, but unless you are in the real bandit country nobody would call rugby a protestant game.....

    Yes GAA is strong but a young player been offered the option of a couple of 100k a year over playing for free normally wins the way of rugby
    it really doesnt if you look at numbers playing even with increase in playing numbers. Best athletes still wont be playing rugby in vast majority of cases.
    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    That's just an excuse. Sorry but are we saying that no Munster or Ulster school is able to produce players anymore? its not so long ago Zebo/POM/Murray etc all came out of Munster. Ulster the same have always produced players.

    Pointing to Leinster and saying it's their fault is an excuse. Provinces are just sitting back and using excuses.

    If you look at Leinster, it is one school which has produced a lot of the talent recently. Are we saying that the other provinces haven't one school to work with?
    nobody is saying there isnt talent elsewhere. It isnt primarily one school in leinster producing most of the talent.
    awec wrote: »
    It's not just an excuse, are you reading my posts at all? I didn't say they aren't producing players, the point is they are not producing players that are as good as the players Leinster can produce, so they don't make Ireland squads.

    And Ulster has no fee paying schools. Zero. There is no school with money being pumped into it by parents churning out what are essentially professional athletes. Ulster schools have to work with what the Ulster Branch can afford to give them, which is a finite amount of money and obviously a lot less than Leinster schools.

    Munster has a few fee paying rugby schools, and Leinster has loads.
    yep. Look at facilities. Hoe many schools have 4g pitches etc etc.


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    #2355
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    yes
    salanoa is not in the senior squad and Lowe is a project player, soon to be IQ
    so 2 NIQ

    ulster also have Milasinovich in their senior squad, bringing them to 4

    Cloete and Knox are also project players and qualify during 2020.

    Equally, if you’re not counting academy players, isn’t Knox still in the Munster academy?


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    #2356
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    yes
    salanoa is not in the senior squad and Lowe is a project player, soon to be IQ
    so 2 NIQ

    ulster also have Milasinovich in their senior squad, bringing them to 4

    Well if you're looking at it that way Munster also only really have 2.

    Connacht will have Butler qualifying at the same time as Lowe and being honest it looks highly doubtful that Horwitz will be retained and he's barely used as is. He's right, Leinster don't have "significantly" less NIQs.


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    #2357
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    yes
    salanoa is not in the senior squad and Lowe is a project player, soon to be IQ
    so 2 NIQ

    ulster also have Milasinovich in their senior squad, bringing them to 4

    Milasinovich is IQ through his grandfather, who played for Ulster.

    Academy players get selected all the time, so who cares if Salanoa isn't in the senior squad?

    Cloete is in the same boat as Lowe re qualification, and Knox is also academy, so apply your own metrics to Munster and they'll have fewer than Leinster once their short-term guys are gone.

    I think you're mixing up 'NIE' and 'NIQ' as terms. NIE is used to mean someone who can't qualify because they're tied to another country (e.g. Marcell Coetzee), while NIQ is a broader term used for anyone who isn't currently qualified to play for Ireland, e.g. Aj MacGinty, Marcell Coetzee, Jarrad Butler. Lowe is most definitely NIQ.


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    #2358
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    What do NIQ and project players have to do with the provinces ability to promote young players to main squad and to Ireland?

    Less gametime for likes of Jack O'Sullivan, Conor O'Brien, Tommy O'Brien with Botha and Tomane playing.


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    #2359
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    If you want to go off about Tomane bring it back to the Leinster thread

    You asked a question. I answered.


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    #2360
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    So Tomane playing at Leinster is blocking Ulster/Munster and Connacht from developing players at school level and bringing them into the senior side and into international side?

    He is better than I first thought

    You mentioned players being promoted to the main squad and to Ireland, which would definitely be applicable to situation where there's a talented homegrown player struggling for gametime behind an NIQ.

    But move the goalposts if you wish.


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    #2361
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Richie_Rich89 wrote: »
    You mentioned players being promoted to the main squad and to Ireland, which would definitely be applicable to situation where there's a talented homegrown player struggling for gametime behind an NIQ.

    But move the goalposts if you wish.

    Because maybe he isn’t good enough?

    I know you like Conor O’Brien a lot, but if he was anywhere near as good as you make him out to be he would have started when Tomane got injured instead of lining out for Clontarf.


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    #2362
    Hands Like Flippers
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭Hands Like Flippers


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Spencer is raved about as a young scrum half but he is 27, same age as Marmion and nowhere near the experience.



    Wigglesworth is 36......


    That's at the top club in England. Apart from Fak de Klerk name a better 9 in England to Marmion?

    Northampton


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    #2363
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Pure equity doesn’t and has never existed in pro sport. Some teams will always have inherent advantages over others. The suggestion the central contracts shouldn’t be for the first 15 or whatever players in Ireland is laughable. If that’s 10 from Leinster or 10 from Munster or whoever so be it


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    #2364
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Hands Like Flippers wrote: »
    Northampton

    That’s a club not a player


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    #2365
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Jump_In_Jack wrote: »
    Lowe has to wait 12 months so still very much NIQ.
    Milasinovich is Irish Qualified.
    Salanoa has played for Leinster this season
    https://www.the42.ie/leo-cullen-leinster-coventry-4771876-Aug2019/

    That was a preseason game, he's not a registered senior player. He's playing with Belvedere in the AIL and I think he's got an academy contract this year. Similar to the two South African lads Munster had in the academy a couple years ago (I think one was promoted to a senior contract this year).


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    #2366
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    aloooof wrote: »
    Cloete and Knox are also project players and qualify during 2020.

    Equally, if you’re not counting academy players, isn’t Knox still in the Munster academy?

    I never mentioned knox.


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    #2367
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I never mentioned knox.

    Apologies, for mixed up with Richies post who listed term. But ultimately if you apply the same criteria to all the provinces, I don’t think there’s an enormous difference.


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    #2368
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,284 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    aloooof wrote: »
    Apologies, for mixed up with Richies post who listed term. But ultimately if you apply the same criteria to all the provinces, I don’t think there’s an enormous difference.

    There’s not and beyond a handful arguing here I doubt many give a toss. Another thread dragged into the dogs by the same 2 or 3 people again.


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    #2369
    Hands Like Flippers
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭Hands Like Flippers


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    That’s a club not a player

    https://youtu.be/WS1bMgoPank


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    #2370
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    That was a preseason game, he's not a registered senior player. He's playing with Belvedere in the AIL and I think he's got an academy contract this year. Similar to the two South African lads Munster had in the academy a couple years ago (I think one was promoted to a senior contract this year).

    Knox is still Academy this season with contract to move to Development next season and possibly senior contract the season after.
    Same as Salanoa really but Knox has gotten more game time this season.


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    #2371
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,906 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    yes
    salanoa is not in the senior squad and Lowe is a project player, soon to be IQ
    so 2 NIQ

    ulster also have Milasinovich in their senior squad, bringing them to 4
    Milasinovich is I.Q......so not.


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