Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

I love Connacht and their progess is essential to Irish rugby. the shameful days of disbandment threats are long gone. Its amazing.

No i agree with you. Its a great coup for Connacht.

If their progress is essential to Irish rugby, then I don't think moving their best players to the other provinces is the answer.

It's also counter-intuitive to argue they've reached a ceiling in a year where Connacht have qualified for the Champions Cup. They beat Montpellier last weekend. Results like that would've been unheard of previously.

Wegians89

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah i do. In comparison to the other 3 they have a long way to go. Its pretty close. Andy Friend seems a really good coach.

I'm just saying few of the lads may benefit from a move. Likewise there's better options than Robb kicking their heels in other provinces.

If Nucifora is serious about it. Like Daly was a good signing for them. we need more of that i think.

Daly is 5th choice center at Connacht, who else would you suggest makes the move? A deegan or Doris would be the level needed to really push connschtvon but can’t see that happening

Shefwedfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah i do. In comparison to the other 3 they have a long way to go.but Its pretty close. Andy Friend seems a really good coach but look at the other threes centres and then look at connachts. they are all factors. im not bashing them...i bloody LOVE Connacht. I love that they take punts on lads like Niyi and Healy...theres hundreds of those lads knocking about.

I'm just saying few of the lads may benefit from a move. Likewise there's better options than say Robb kicking their heels in other provinces.

If Nucifora is serious about it. Like Daly was a good signing for them. we need more of that i think. Nad yeah Marmion signing is proof of that. I'm just curious about where his head is at. dropped and perhaps a failed move due to bad luck...and now a local lad, Blade pushing him hard.

You can't just move players around just for the fun of it. Clubs like Leinster/Munster have a huge amount of games every season. They have squad is place to cater for those requirements. No point 6 games into a season and suddenly they are flying in overseas player because a couple of players are down

I am all for sending players to Connacht and trying to make sure they are in HC every year but not if it means other provinces have to bring in injury jokers


I know you love a podcast, I would suggest you have a listen to Molecast, they had a very good discussion on a similar point recently, about players in the provinces

Niallof9

Wegians89 wrote: »

Daly is 5th choice center at Connacht, who else would you suggest makes the move? A deegan or Doris would be the level needed to really push connschtvon but can’t see that happening

Frawley, Dooley, Adam Byrne, Keenan. Then you have lower lads like Mullin, O'Brien.

Yeah i know Daly is 5th choice...he's not the best centre Leinster have ever produced.

To make it about Ireland, i fully believe in a NZ style movement system. Fully in not a half arsed effort that just disenfranchises the provinces. In fairness this is where Connacht are leaders in this i feel. Some great talent identification.

Niallof9

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You can't just move players around just for the fun of it. Clubs like Leinster/Munster have a huge amount of games every season. They have squad is place to cater for those requirements. No point 6 games into a season and suddenly they are flying in overseas player because a couple of players are down

I am all for sending players to Connacht and trying to make sure they are in HC every year but not if it means other provinces have to bring in injury jokers


I know you love a podcast, I would suggest you have a listen to Molecast, they had a very good discussion on a similar point recently, about players in the provinces

I agree somewhat. Thats true the squads would have no players. But take a guy like Adam Byrne. In and out of the squad. Does him no favors. Leinster clearly don't trust him or need him. We have people regularly forgetting he even exists. Has issues with defence and confidence but would be an asset for Connacht. It doesn't weaken Leinster if he moves. It would make him, and he'd become an asset for Ireland. I'm only talking about 3 or 4 lads. O Sullivan in Munster, Dooley maybe, Frawley. I dont think any of that weakens anybody.

We weaken Irish rugby if we allow too much hoarding go on. Also we weaken Irish rugby if Connacht sign medicore players or are given the medicre players. yeah demented mole is great.

I mean you slagged me, or somebody did about the 1500 AIL level players that i mentioned in reply to the idea that we have so so few rugby players.. Like Niyi is an Irish international, a very good pro. I love the guy. But i know from watching tons of AIL that there is loads of Niyis floating about, healy too. Obviously they cant take punts on everybody. But i feel its either they are given 3 or 4 of the best most log jammed players or they continue to take punts and lose guys like Henshaw (who i know moved for the GF but the narrative was that he needs top class games)

Aki is the key to Connachts rise i think. the first fully trusted Irish international that unlike Henshaw doesn't need to move. So it will be interesting to see if he re-signs.

I do think Dillane needs a move though. Some of them do need the best of the best facilities and culture. And unfortunately at the moment that isn't in Connacht. Hopefully one day it will be.

Basically thats where my Marmion point is. He's similar. Its not a Connacht bash at all. Just realism. I wonder how good some of them might become in that winning environment. Because thats it really, Munster, Leinster are completely different cultures to connacht. Its just the way it is. Its easier to play for a Burnley than it is for a Liverpool. the expectations , the pressures, the learnings are different. Now i know we want the four proud provinces and some day hopefully all four will be on an even footing. And keeping Marmion is key to that, i get that.

But i was a doubter in the healing process...but having four provinces win on one weekend does feel like a bit of healing and movement. Once we don't hype.

thebaz

its like deja-vu - Ireland fail at another WC , players comeback and perform for ther provinces - looks like a mental thing , that players get frozen with the onset of another WC failure and just cant get beyond a Quarter - my love of rugby is waning , wonder will it ever comeback ?

171170

Wegians89 wrote: »

Not a fact, rumors like this are very rarely facts but the level of coverage and the people reporting it would lead me to believe there was interest.

Agreed. But I'm a complete cynic when one reads rumours like this which, realistically, can only come from one source; cui bono! The last ones that come to mind were O'Mahony (to France) and Earls (to Sarries) but in both cases the IRFU magically found some more money in its back pocket!

Shefwedfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

I agree somewhat. Thats true the squads would have no players. But take a guy like Adam Byrne. In and out of the squad. Does him no favors. Leinster clearly don't trust him or need him. We have people regularly forgetting he even exists. Has issues with defence and confidence but would be an asset for Connacht. It doesn't weaken Leinster if he moves. It would make him, and he'd become an asset for Ireland. I'm only talking about 3 or 4 lads. O Sullivan in Munster, Dooley maybe, Frawley. I dont think any of that weakens anybody.

We weaken Irish rugby if we allow too much hoarding go on. Also we weaken Irish rugby if Connacht sign medicore players or are given the medicre players. yeah demented mole is great.

I mean you slagged me, or somebody did about the 1500 AIL level players that i mentioned in reply to the idea that we have so so few rugby players.. Like Niyi is an Irish international, a very good pro. I love the guy. But i know from watching tons of AIL that there is loads of Niyis floating about, healy too. Obviously they cant take punts on everybody. But i feel its either they are given 3 or 4 of the best most log jammed players or they continue to take punts and lose guys like Henshaw (who i know moved for the GF but the narrative was that he needs top class games)

Aki is the key to Connachts rise i think. the first fully trusted Irish international that unlike Henshaw doesn't need to move. So it will be interesting to see if he re-signs.

I do think Dillane needs a move though. Some of them do need the best of the best facilities and culture. And unfortunately at the moment that isn't in Connacht. Hopefully one day it will be.

Basically thats where my Marmion point is. He's similar. Its not a Connacht bash at all. Just realism. I wonder how good some of them might become in that winning environment. Because thats it really, Munster, Leinster are completely different cultures to connacht. Its just the way it is. Its easier to play for a Burnley than it is for a Liverpool. the expectations , the pressures, the learnings are different. Now i know we want the four proud provinces and some day hopefully all four will be on an even footing. And keeping Marmion is key to that, i get that.

But i was a doubter in the healing process...but having four provinces win on one weekend does feel like a bit of healing and movement. Once we don't hype.

You keep referring to Adam Byrne but last year he got more starts than before and he got an injury at end of season which restricted him.....


I didn't slag you about the AIL but if players are in the AIL and they are good enought they have been given a shot before. Moving players on just to bring in players who are not good enough is not going to help anyone.



I don;t think Aki will resign, it was a mate who mentioned to me he resigned when Lam was still at the helm and when Lam left he was pi**ed. I think he will take the money and go, it will be his last big contract, I just cant see him making another WC......


Dillane I said a few seasons ago needed a move, just to change the scenery. Does he need it now? I dont think so....he is playing in the HC and that is the main thing for players looking to get into the Ireland first team.



WHo would Dillane move to? Munster dont need him. Leinster he would be blocking a young player. Ulster? they have two starting irish players in Hendy and Treadwell.

Niallof9

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You keep referring to Adam Byrne but last year he got more starts than before and he got an injury at end of season which restricted him.....


I didn't slag you about the AIL but if players are in the AIL and they are good enought they have been given a shot before. Moving players on just to bring in players who are not good enough is not going to help anyone.



I don;t think Aki will resign, it was a mate who mentioned to me he resigned when Lam was still at the helm and when Lam left he was pi**ed. I think he will take the money and go, it will be his last big contract, I just cant see him making another WC......


Dillane I said a few seasons ago needed a move, just to change the scenery. Does he need it now? I dont think so....he is playing in the HC and that is the main thing for players looking to get into the Ireland first team.



WHo would Dillane move to? Munster dont need him. Leinster he would be blocking a young player. Ulster? they have two starting irish players in Hendy and Treadwell.

I dont think they have. I know loads of lads involved who never had a sniff. Lads just as good as Niyi or Matt Healy. Its just the the way the world works. Some make it some don't , fine. it is what it is. But what i mean is to make Connacht consistently good they need better options. Or somebody like a Copeland( who they signed too late). I don't know i just think Connacht even still isn't reaching its potential. Maybe lads don't want to move there. Look at Kellehers move back, which frankly is mindboggling in rugby terms.

Yeah and where is the lad now? In and out, doing him no good. His injury was unfortunate. His career is passing him by and we have lads advocating Kearney for Ireland now. I mean i don't get why you get so defensive about suggestions. Like you're saying i have a bee in my bonnet about this in a way, but so do you? i mean what harm does somebody like that moving do? none imo.

Yeah thats true, Dillane has nowhere to go to.

Until all provinces are equal, its not inaccurate to say that the winning and competitive cultures of Munster and Leinster are the best environments currently for Irish players to be. And im not a fan of any provinces, im an Irish fan first, then probably a Lunster man.

Anyway at this level Irish rugby is very very healthy.

and just to say over on munsterfans they are discussing the idea of central contracts having a bearing on everything and nobody is losing their ****.

anyway when is Andy Farrell going to speak to the media?

Shefwedfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

I dont think they have. I know loads of lads involved who never had a sniff. Lads just as good as Niyi or Matt Healy. Its just the the way the world works. Some make it some don't , fine. it is what it is. But thats i mean to make Connacht consistently good they need better options. Or somebody like Copeland who they signed too late. I don't know i just think Connacht even still isn't reaching its potential. Maybe lads don't want to move there. Look at Kellehers move back, which frankly is mindboggling in rugby terms.

Yeah and where is the lad now? In and out, doing him no good. His injury was unfortunate. His career is passing him by and we have lads advocating Kearney for Ireland now. I mean i don't get why you get so defensive about suggestions. Like you're saying i have a bee in my bonnet about this in a way, but so do you? i mean what harm does somebody like that moving do? none imo.

Yeah thats true, Dillane has nowhere to go to.

Until all provinces are equal, its not inaccurate to say that the winning and competitive cultures of Munster and Leinster are the best environments currently for Irish players to be. And im not a fan of any provinces, im an Irish fan first, then probably a Lunster man.

You change the goal posts, pick on form and then a player you don’t like comes up, D Kearney, and it’s drop him and pick someone not on form

It’s one or the other, best to listen to Fla in regards to Copeland.....he mentioned on recent podcast

You pick deals as well with no information, Kelleher has moved, he and Leinster have to have a reason, just because you don’t understand doesn’t mean it’s wrong

Maybe he wasn’t happy in his personal life and wanted to come home, I have no idea and it’s none of my business but you never know....who is to say he doesn’t light up the Heneiken cup and 6 nations this year? He is what, 7 games into the season

sydthebeat

count the ex leinster, or leinster developed players on the other three provincial squads

"hoarding" doesnt happen.
if players want to move, and there are pathways open to them to other provinces, it happens.

Niallof9

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You change the goal posts, pick on form and then a player you don’t like comes up, D Kearney, and it’s drop him and pick someone not on form

It’s one or the other, best to listen to Fla in regards to Copeland.....he mentioned on recent podcast

You pick deals as well with no information, Kelleher has moved, he and Leinster have to have a reason, just because you don’t understand doesn’t mean it’s wrong

Maybe he wasn’t happy in his personal life and wanted to come home, I have no idea and it’s none of my business but you never know....who is to say he doesn’t light up the Heneiken cup and 6 nations this year? He is what, 7 games into the season

What does that have got to do with anything i just said. I'm talking about a player like Adam Byrne moving provinces not being sleected over D Kearney.

I never said pick Adam Byrne.

And who saids Dave Kearney is in better form. He's played 2 more games than adam, made less metres, less clean breaks, less tries. In defence he's wiped the floor with Byrne which is his weakness.. Dave's great strength is his defence.

I said in pure rugby reasons. Yeah who knows what other factors there is. I said that... In pure rugby terms it seems a mistake for the lad.

anyway to keep it in an Irish context im just advocating more movement than we're currently seeing. Movement which will strengthen Connacht and Irish rugby

regarding Marmion, his re-signing is great for Connacht. But perhaps bad for Marmion

sydthebeat

Niallof9 wrote: »

What does that have got to do with anything i just said. I'm talking about a player like Adam Byrne.

I said in pure rugby reasons. Yeah who knows what other factors there is. I said that... In pure rugby terms it seems a mistake for the lad.

leinster stuck with adam Byrne through a long term injury... and some smaller ones.

perhaps he thinks he something to prove to repay that trust?

hes also seeing older back three players like Ferg, RobK and to a lesser extent Dave K come towards the ends of their careers. so perhaps hes confident enough to become a first teamer in the coming seasons... and more power to him too.

Niallof9

Yeah thats true too. I'd fear for the lad though, he'll be knocking on 27/28 by the time some of them go. Who's to say Ferg doesn't play another 3 seasons as Leinster's experienced guy. this is what i was going on about as well last week, which got lost in the argument around Central Contracts. we can't just move these lads on like they would in soccer. I think we'll see with Rob. If he gets another deal with Ireland/Leinster then we will know its set in stone.

Its a mistake imo. And its a prime example that we haven't got the movement thing down properly yet. We aren't ruthless enough.

Like also why can't an experienced McFadden or whoever be moved then to Connacht? A guy like that would be a huge asset for them. That could be the other way, instead of transfer issues or lads hanging on till they are 36

Again the players rights come before anything, they have families lives. Yes i know. But in pure rugby terms and contracts.

For the best for Irish rugby

Podge_irl

I realise it was during some pretty dark days, but Mick McGrath and Darragh Fanning clearly weren't actually good enough for pro rugby as examples of some AIL players who were looked at.

I don't doubt there are some exceptions, but I would think they are pretty rare.

Shefwedfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

Anyway at this level Irish rugby is very very healthy.

and just to say over on munsterfans they are discussing the idea of central contracts having a bearing on everything and nobody is losing their ****.

anyway when is Andy Farrell going to speak to the media?

You are using munsterfans as a place to discuss central contracts? whats the bets they want rid of them? :P:P



have a listen to the Molecast from Demented Mole, episode 41......very good podcast and not like the others who are just controversial to be controversial

Jump_In_Jack

Would it be controversial to suggest capping the number of central contracts to 4 per province?

Shefwedfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Would it be controversial to suggest capping the number of central contracts to 4 per province?

Why would you do that?

sydthebeat

just had a quick look at the current squads... and for the craic i counted up those born in leinster, and those born outside of ireland.

Ulster
10 Leinster born, 12 Foreign born

Munster
5 Leinster born, 13 Foreign born

Connacht
12 Leinster born, 15 Foreign born

Leinster
37 Leinster born, 7 Foreign born

so without extruding any particular comment from this, and stressing that i just used their place of birth as the base line, its interesting that there are 27 different players who were born in leinster playing senior provincial rugby outside of Leinster.

Niallof9

Podge_irl wrote: »

I realise it was during some pretty dark days, but Mick McGrath and Darragh Fanning clearly weren't actually good enough for pro rugby as examples of some AIL players who were looked at.

I don't doubt there are some exceptions, but I would think they are pretty rare.

But thats part of my point. Niyi and Matt Healy were AIL players. Copeland too basically - he was signed in England on the back of a super season. Hugh Hogan, Leinster coach springs to mind. The two Matt D'arcy's. Kevin Sheahan, Liam Quill and who knows how many others. There's three players many people on here who who people would never have seen were easily the best players i have ever played with. Sexton himself also said it so its not just pub talk. Brophy, grissing, Nash all St Mary's players. Dunlop in Terenure. Sexton's brother was very good - Mark Sexton, My point is if these lads were English they'd have a chance at going pro. And part of my argument is should Connacht be taking punts on any guys at all? Either they go local and AIL level here and abroad with the odd moneyball like Butler or they get 4 or 5 of the cream of the crop to aid them and Ireland. So thats say Frawley, O'Sullivan by 3, Maloney, A.Byrne. or perhaps that just makes them feel developmental still so its rejected out of hand. the days of Buckley, Flannery, Reddan gone. Only local lads, the odd punt and moneyball signings. Fair enough. But don't expect regular qualifications and then logjams where certain lads while away careers on benches.

You can't just pick two lads, who were playing in one of the best club teams in the World.

And instead of saying pro i think its better say pro in Ireland. Have a gander at some of the lads playing championship rugby its dire stuff.

Anyway I won't go there.

Somebody else take the floor with some other point!

a current 6 nations squad after the weekends play perhaps?

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah thats true too. I'd fear for the lad though, he'll be knocking on 27/28 by the time some of them go. Who's to say Ferg doesn't play another 3 seasons as Leinster's experienced guy. this is what i was going on about as well last week, which got lost in the argument around Central Contracts. we can't just move these lads on like they would in soccer. I think we'll see with Rob. If he gets another deal with Ireland/Leinster then we will know its set in stone.

Its a mistake imo. And its a prime example that we haven't got the movement thing down properly yet. We aren't ruthless enough.

Like also why can't an experienced McFadden or whoever be moved then to Connacht? A guy like that would be a huge asset for them. That could be the other way, instead of transfer issues or lads hanging on till they are 36

Again the players rights come before anything, they have families lives. Yes i know. But in pure rugby terms and contracts.

For the best for Irish rugby

It's not an example of anything yet, as he hasn't been offered a new deal yet. You're drawing conclusions about things before they've even happened here.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

WHo would Dillane move to? Munster dont need him. Leinster he would be blocking a young player. Ulster? they have two starting irish players in Hendy and Treadwell.

The irony is, if Dillane had moved he'd likely be getting less gametime in the Champions Cup this season.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

The irony is, if Dillane had moved he'd likely be getting less gametime in the Champions Cup this season.

he's better than Holland and Kleyn. He's better than Treadwell.

Anyway it doesn't matter he playing for Connacht in the European Cup thats great

Jump_In_Jack

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why would you do that?

We have 4 teams, so 4 teams having 4 centrally contracted players each would even the playing field a bit, while limiting the total number of players on central contracts to 16, which seems to be around the number there have been in recent years.

Why wouldn't you do that?

salmocab

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

We have 4 teams, so 4 teams having 4 centrally contracted players each would even the playing field a bit, while limiting the total number of players on central contracts to 16, which seems to be around the number there have been in recent years.

Why wouldn't you do that?

Central contracts go to the players that are deemed to be the most deserving for whatever reasons, it’s probably a system that needs tweaking but spreading them evenly means that they are not given on merit.

sydthebeat

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

We have 4 teams, so 4 teams having 4 centrally contracted players each would even the playing field a bit, while limiting the total number of players on central contracts to 16, which seems to be around the number there have been in recent years.

Why wouldn't you do that?

even the playing field bringing the top teams down to the level of the lower ones.....
or even the playing fields by bringing the lower teams up to the level of the top ones....

both of these have the same desired outcome (even teams) but one choice is exponentially better than the other.

Interested Observer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

We have 4 teams, so 4 teams having 4 centrally contracted players each would even the playing field a bit, while limiting the total number of players on central contracts to 16, which seems to be around the number there have been in recent years.

Why wouldn't you do that?

Why would you? These aren't kids in a playground, if there's a top tier of contracts they should go to the best players. What 4 Ulster players would get a central contract for example? Henderson, you could argue for Stockdale, then who? Same question for Connacht? Aki and then you're basically out.

Shefwedfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

We have 4 teams, so 4 teams having 4 centrally contracted players each would even the playing field a bit, while limiting the total number of players on central contracts to 16, which seems to be around the number there have been in recent years.

Why wouldn't you do that?

So itsjust another way to punish a province who goes out, finds players, invest in them. bring them up via the system, makes them the best in country and then get told, nah you cant get a central contract because we need to give to a lesser player in another province???



Instead of trying to target provinces who are bringing players to Ireland you should be trying to target clubs to promote young players.....

Jump_In_Jack

Guys, I'm saying the IRFU gives out 16 central contracts, if for example they gave 4 to Leinster, and there are more than 4 there, then they should be told if you want a central contract you have to move to another province, or suck it up where you are on the lower contract, or go abroad if you want more money.
The other provinces would certainly not have the option to give out central contracts to inferior players, it wouldn't be about letting each province decide who gets them.

Interested Observer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Guys, I'm saying the IRFU gives out 16 central contracts, if for example they gave 4 to Leinster, and there are more than 4 there, then they should be told if you want a central contract you have to move to another province, or suck it up where you are on the lower contract, or go abroad if you want more money.
The other provinces would certainly not have the option to give out central contracts to inferior players, it wouldn't be about letting each province decide who gets them.

Well that's an even worse idea.

Hello very good player, I'm afraid if you want to achieve anything close to your market value then we are forcing you to leave your home province. P.S. please don't move to England or France. Kind regards, the IRFU.