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Scottish independence

2456772

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An independent Scotland and a united Ireland would be best friends within the EU.

    England can do whatever it wants. An independent Scotland and Ireland within the EU would lead both countries to thrive.

    Scotland is big enough, populous enough and rich enough to be independent.

    They have a higher national income per head of population than France, Japan and New Zealand.

    They have North Sea oil.

    They have scotch:D.

    They would do brilliantly as an independent state, just as Ireland would as a reunified state.

    Didn't the manifesto you posted propose Ireland leaving the EU?


  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Jayferg wrote: »

    From these guys -

    The Henry Jackson Society is a libertarian British foreign policy think tank. It has been described as right-wing, but positions itself as cross-partisan, with support from some left-leaning politicians.

    A couple of points on the article -
    - London has started to take Russian interest in Scotland seriously and has adopted a "Fusion Doctrine" to counter hybrid warfare. So that is what Boris, JRM, et al are up to - sorry I did not realise
    - SNP wants to join NATO but opposes Trident - this is ironic as these submarines provide NATOs nuclear deterrence in Europe Which other NATO country has it's main nuclear arsenal 30 miles from it's main population centre?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Because a UK wide corporate tax rate of 19% makes them less attractive than Ireland's 12.5%

    I thought that much would be obvious.

    An independent Scotland could cut to 12.5% or lower if they saw fit.

    considering how the EU feels about our rate, I would only imagine on the very slim chance of them getting back into the EU, that not dropping it below 19% would be the basis of any agreement to let them in to stop precisely that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    People who assume Scotland would be Ireland's friend if independent need only think back to the Rockall drama a few months ago.

    That was Edinburgh driving that, not Westminster.

    Westminster decided Rockall was part of the UK and allocated it to Scotland with its own exclusion zone around it and fisheries is devolved to Scotland therefore Scotland is implementing Westminster law


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    From these guys -

    The Henry Jackson Society is a libertarian British foreign policy think tank. It has been described as right-wing, but positions itself as cross-partisan, with support from some left-leaning politicians.

    A couple of points on the article -
    - London has started to take Russian interest in Scotland seriously and has adopted a "Fusion Doctrine" to counter hybrid warfare. So that is what Boris, JRM, et al are up to - sorry I did not realise
    - SNP wants to join NATO but opposes Trident - this is ironic as these submarines provide NATOs nuclear deterrence in Europe Which other NATO country has it's main nuclear arsenal 30 miles from it's main population centre?

    The Scottish Government states that the Trident submarines and nuclear weapons belong to rUK and should be stationed there. The UK knows that they do not have any facility for them anywhere else other than Scotland hence the 'colonial' keep

    How many NATO members are nuclear armed?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,304 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    How many NATO members are nuclear armed?
    Three. Five other NATO countries "share" their weapons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Other than Irish republicans like the op describes themselves as, who see this as a way to get back at the English by proxy

    You say this sort of stuff like you're any better. You hide behind being against Scottish independence because it's "bad for Ireland", yet the truth is alot more basic, you have a penchant for all things British/UK.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    You say this sort of stuff like you're any better. You hide behind being against Scottish independence because it's "bad for Ireland", yet the truth is alot more basic, you have a penchant for all things British/UK.

    I don't hide behind it because it's bad for Ireland, I'm pretty open about saying it's bad for Ireland.

    And I lack a penchant for all things British/UK as equally as I lack a penchant for all things Scottish.

    I'm pretty ambivalent about Catalan independence, because I don't think it would have the same effect on Ireland as Scottish independence would.

    So I'm not hiding behind anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    considering how the EU feels about our rate, I would only imagine on the very slim chance of them getting back into the EU, that not dropping it below 19% would be the basis of any agreement to let them in to stop precisely that.

    With the Catalan situation still unresolved Scotland may be a long way from EU membership so it could be a moot point.

    With regards to a referendum campaign I can imagine the independence side offering their own versions of sunlit uplands and unicorns that the Leave campaign did for Brexit.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Westminster decided Rockall was part of the UK and allocated it to Scotland with its own exclusion zone around it and fisheries is devolved to Scotland therefore Scotland is implementing Westminster law

    Rubbish. The SNP were pandering to the Scottish fishing community in an attempt to prise Shetland away from the Lib Dems.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,538 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    I don't hide behind it because it's bad for Ireland, I'm pretty open about saying it's bad for Ireland.

    And I lack a penchant for all things British/UK as equally as I lack a penchant for all things Scottish.

    I'm pretty ambivalent about Catalan independence, because I don't think it would have the same effect on Ireland as Scottish independence would.

    So I'm not hiding behind anything.

    You generalise about "republicans" on here. You're the flip side of the same predictable coin on any matters relating to Britain


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,065 ✭✭✭otnomart


    With the Catalan situation still unresolved Scotland may be a long way from EU membership so it could be a moot point.
    The only EU Country that was against Scottish independence was Spain.
    That changed after Brexit.
    Spain now would not oppose Scotland secessing from another non-EU Country.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-scotland/spain-would-not-oppose-future-independent-scotland-rejoining-eu-minister-idUSKCN1NP26D



    I can actually see France being in favour of Scotland gaining independence and joining the EU.
    It would mean access to Scottish fishing waters for French fishing vessels.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,039 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    US2 wrote: »
    This "we voted remain" is nonsense. Should gay marriage still be illegal in rosscomon ?

    If they wanted to secede I mean sure, wish them luck


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    if the SNP want independence, they should get the English to vote on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Aegir wrote: »
    if the SNP want independence, they should get the English to vote on it.

    Agreed all you need there is a bus with a catchy slogan on the side.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭rock22


    The SNP, while saying they want to join the EU after an independence vote are also saying they want to retain their own currency etc. They appear to believe they would have the same exceptions the UK won for itself.

    I think the Scottish are unlikely to vote for independence. Independence creates uncertainty and most Scottish people are rathr conservative, especially in matters fiscal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    rock22 wrote: »
    The SNP, while saying they want to join the EU after an independence vote are also saying they want to retain their own currency etc. They appear to believe they would have the same exceptions the UK won for itself.

    If Scotland becomes independent it will have to have its own currency (which they can peg to Sterling if they wish). They have to agree to adopt the Euro if they wish to join the EU but only when they meet the convergence criteria

    https://theferret.scot/independent-scotland-join-the-euro/


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    A
    Do you believe that it would be in the best interests of the Scottish people to become an indpendent country within the EU?

    Why do you assume they'd join the EU when EFTA/EEA would better suit their purposes?????
    I, as an Irish republican, would be delighted to see an indpendent Scotland as I believe they could be our best friend within the EU now with England gone.

    We've got plenty of very good friend in the EU and our diplomats are very good at making use of them. It's seems this is more about you and your interests that what is best for Scotland.
    Also, think about the benefits that Scottish independence could have for Irish reunification.

    If and it is a very big if, Irish unity will happen in accordance with the GFA provisions as we have signed up to. Noting to do with Scotland.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    With the Catalan situation still unresolved Scotland may be a long way from EU membership so it could be a moot point.

    You need to open you mind a bit. There is noting stopping Scotland from joining EFTA and accessing the single market via the EEA agreement, the same as Norway. In fact it would probably suit them much better than EU membership.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    If Scotland becomes independent it will have to have its own currency (which they can peg to Sterling if they wish).

    There is no obligation on them to do so, they could just adapt Sterling if they wished. A Scottish central bank and government issuing bonds etc... in Sterling would cause headaches for the BOE, but's life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    There is no obligation on them to do so, they could just adapt Sterling if they wished. A Scottish central bank and government issuing bonds etc... in Sterling would cause headaches for the BOE, but's life.

    Yes and that would be their own currency


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    Not only should Scotland become independent from england but we should unit our clans and become one Celtic nation with Scotland


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    You need to open you mind a bit. There is noting stopping Scotland from joining EFTA and accessing the single market via the EEA agreement, the same as Norway. In fact it would probably suit them much better than EU membership.

    But the whole resurgence in Scottish independence since the 2014 referendum has been around the idea that they are being dragged out of the EU by the English.

    Scotland voted Remain, thus if they were independent they would not be leaving the EU.

    If independence is possible without EU membership then it's not as appealing is it ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    But the whole resurgence in Scottish independence since the 2014 referendum has been around the idea that they are being dragged out of the EU by the English.

    Not quite clear as that, Scotland was split 55% - 45% on the independence question. The 45% mostly moved to vote for the SNP in subsequent elections to keep the pressure on and the SNP put a manifesto commitment that they would seek another referendum if Brexit happens and Scotland voted to remain. This was a material change since the 2014 referendum as the No side claimed that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No

    The SNP asked the Tories to make the Brexit referendum contingent on all 4 constituent countries of of the UK voting to leave, this was refused and Scottish interests and views have been ignored ever since
    If independence is possible without EU membership then it's not as appealing is it ?

    Scotland cannot currently make any decision about EFTA/EU/EEA or any other group as they are hitched to whatever England whats to do and England currently does not want to do what is in Scotlands interests


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 61 ✭✭derrymcorry


    Not only should Scotland become independent from england but we should unit our clans and become one Celtic nation with Scotland

    This is a fantastic idea, but not as full countries but maybe in an EU alliance.

    When there is a united Ireland and let's be real here it will happen before 2050, an independent Scotland would be a great ally given that most of the loyalists in the Six Counties are Scottish.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Scotland cannot currently make any decision about EFTA/EU/EEA or any other group as they are hitched to whatever England whats to do and England currently does not want to do what is in Scotlands interests

    Is a hard border with England in Scotland’s interests?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Aegir wrote: »
    Is a hard border with England in Scotland’s interests?

    Maybe, maybe not


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,646 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Overheal wrote: »
    If they wanted to secede I mean sure, wish them luck

    A hard border between Roscommon and Mayo would great.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Aegir wrote: »
    Is a hard border with England in Scotland’s interests?

    If we have learned anything thus far from Brexit it is that decoupling from existing unions is not trivial.
    So imagine what decoupling Scotland from the rest of the UK would be like, especially for people and businesses along the border between Scotland and England.

    Any who suggests otherwise would be like Liam Fox in 2017.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    especially for people and businesses along the border between Scotland and England.

    The border between Scotland and England is much more straightforward then the NI/Republic border.

    It is only 154 km long vs. 500 km in Ireland, and a lot of it is across remote/mountainous national park. Berwick-upon-Tweed is the only biggish town nearby, and it is only 12,000 people, so similar to Strabane vs. Derry with 90,000.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    New poll out by Ashcroft and it confirms UK is heading for dissolution

    https://twitter.com/AileanBeaton/status/1186172707706146816


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The border between Scotland and England is much more straightforward then the NI/Republic border.

    It is only 154 km long vs. 500 km in Ireland, and a lot of it is across remote/mountainous national park. Berwick-upon-Tweed is the only biggish town nearby, and it is only 12,000 people, so similar to Strabane vs. Derry with 90,000.

    It’s still a border though and would still mean regulatory and customs checks.

    If the Irish back stop was just about it being a bit difficult then the UK would have left the Eu by now.

    It will be ignored by Scottish Nationalists though and written off as project fear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    1. The Tories are refusing another Section 30 order therefore there is no referendum confirmed and is unlikely to take place for at least another 4-6 months if the order was agreed
    2. If Scotland voted for independence then it will probably be another 2 years before independence takes place
    3. Scotland would not join the EU immediately as it will need to demonstrate how it meets the criteria
    4. It is reasonable to suggest that Scotland and rUK would enjoy a CTA similar to Ireland and UK
    5. It is reasonable to suggest that some sort of trade agreement will take place between Scotland and rUK
    6. The UK trade arrangement with the EU is unknown at this point therefore we do not know what the border will look like if Scotland joins the EU


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭circadian


    Aegir wrote: »
    It’s still a border though and would still mean regulatory and customs checks.

    If the Irish back stop was just about it being a bit difficult then the UK would have left the Eu by now.

    It will be ignored by Scottish Nationalists though and written off as project fear.

    The SNP have been actively planning this for years. I'd hazard a guess they'd be a lot more organised than the absolute chaos that is Brexit.

    The behaviour towards Scottish politicians has been abhorrent. I can guarantee that treating the majority party in a regional Parliament in such a way will result in a response. The current government is burning bridges left, right and centre at the minute and I can't tell if it's a result of arrogance or sheer stupidity.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    circadian wrote: »
    The SNP have been actively planning this for years. I'd hazard a guess they'd be a lot more organised than the absolute chaos that is Brexit.

    The behaviour towards Scottish politicians has been abhorrent. I can guarantee that treating the majority party in a regional Parliament in such a way will result in a response. The current government is burning bridges left, right and centre at the minute and I can't tell if it's a result of arrogance or sheer stupidity.

    what sort of response? are the SNP going to declare war or something?

    They should sort out their own backyard first though, they seem to be losing support left right and centre as the Scots start to realise that there is a bot more to running a country than blind nationalism.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    1. The Tories are refusing another Section 30 order therefore there is no referendum confirmed and is unlikely to take place for at least another 4-6 months if the order was agreed
    2. If Scotland voted for independence then it will probably be another 2 years before independence takes place
    3. Scotland would not join the EU immediately as it will need to demonstrate how it meets the criteria
    4. It is reasonable to suggest that Scotland and rUK would enjoy a CTA similar to Ireland and UK
    5. It is reasonable to suggest that some sort of trade agreement will take place between Scotland and rUK
    6. The UK trade arrangement with the EU is unknown at this point therefore we do not know what the border will look like if Scotland joins the EU

    I do find it mildly amusing that Scottish Nationalists (or is that Irish nationalists in Scotland :confused:) seem to have completely missed the shenanigans over Brexit and seem to think that somehow none of that will apply to them.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Aegir wrote: »
    what sort of response? are the SNP going to declare war or something?

    The winning party in a referendum almost always looses in a repeat.... the loosing party now know the full impact of the arguments used to win and will be able to more effectively challenge them second time around.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Aegir wrote: »
    I do find it mildly amusing that Scottish Nationalists (or is that Irish nationalists in Scotland :confused:) seem to have completely missed the shenanigans over Brexit and seem to think that somehow none of that will apply to them.

    Yep
    The campaign for an independent Scotland will be full of their version of sunlit uplands and unicorns and as you previously implied anything negative will be called project fear.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    The winning party in a referendum almost always looses in a repeat.... the loosing party now know the full impact of the arguments used to win and will be able to more effectively challenge them second time around.

    and the Scots now know that a lot of the issues written off as project fear are actually project fact.

    They also know exactly how difficult it is to untangle a country from a union.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Aegir wrote: »
    and the Scots now know that a lot of the issues written off as project fear are actually project fact.

    They also know exactly how difficult it is to untangle a country from a union.

    Sure, but they are being dragged out of the European Union against their will right now.

    So Independence will be out of one union, but back into another one, one with a decent record of supporting smaller member countries. A different story from the UK trying to escape into non-existent sunlit uplands.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Sure, but they are being dragged out of the European Union against their will right now.

    So Independence will be out of one union, but back into another one, one with a decent record of supporting smaller member countries. A different story from the UK trying to escape into non-existent sunlit uplands.

    By no means guaranteed and a long way down the road.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 61 ✭✭derrymcorry


    The EU is much better than the UK. I'd much rather a country being a full member of the EU than a part of the UK.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Aegir wrote: »
    what sort of response? are the SNP going to declare war or something?

    They should sort out their own backyard first though, they seem to be losing support left right and centre as the Scots start to realise that there is a bot more to running a country than blind nationalism.

    That is news to me - can you supply some evidence for this.
    The latest poll I have seen said that the SNP was on course to pick up 10 Tory seats at the next election.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Aegir wrote: »

    They should sort out their own backyard first though, they seem to be losing support left right and centre

    Can you post any evidence of that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,280 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Aegir wrote: »
    I do find it mildly amusing that Scottish Nationalists (or is that Irish nationalists in Scotland :confused:) seem to have completely missed the shenanigans over Brexit and seem to think that somehow none of that will apply to them.

    Is there a point that you disagree with or is it just a general whinge?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭circadian


    Aegir wrote: »
    what sort of response? are the SNP going to declare war or something?

    They should sort out their own backyard first though, they seem to be losing support left right and centre as the Scots start to realise that there is a bot more to running a country than blind nationalism.

    I suspect you're not debating in good faith but I'll engage nonetheless.

    The response will be from the electorate, according to you the SNP are losing ground which I'd like to see evidence of as anything I've seen is the opposite. The electorate will almost certainly hand an overwhelming majority mandate to the SNP, which in turn puts more weight behind another independence referendum. The Scots have been totter ally sidelined by the Tories and their voices ignored regarding Brexit, I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a response.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    That is news to me - can you supply some evidence for this.
    The latest poll I have seen said that the SNP was on course to pick up 10 Tory seats at the next election.

    ten of the thirteen seats they lost at the last election?


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