Corona Virus

blue note wrote: »

That's very interesting. I was looking at their case numbers. They were being held up as an example of how not to handle the pandemic. This was around when the resorts would have been starting to open up. And their daily cases have decreased fairly steadily since roughly when the resorts would have been opening.

It's so hard to get your head around all of this.

In fairness, they've shut down everything except for shops, pharmacies and ski resorts, so you'd have to hope that would get the numbers down.

Despite its reputation, skiing probably isn't a huge risk. Its mostly outdoors and there is very little evidence to support outdoor transmission of this virus. A lot of the difficulties associated with skiing are the stuff around it - apres ski, hotels, indoor restaurants, flying to and from the country, getting to the resort. The Gondolas would obviously be an issue but provided you aren't packed in like a sardine its probably no worse than public transport which is running the world over.

I assume if skiing were operating as normal there would have been big problems but everyone live to the risks by now.

Incidentally there have still been cases reported in relation to skiing. A British tourist managed to get a ski race in I think Wengen postponed by not isolating on arrival and spreading the virus to a bunch of other people, I think in his hotel. And there was something else in I think St Anton involving gap year students doing a ski course, which must have been exempted on the basis of education.

I have the sense that Austria and Switzerland view themselves as mountain nations. This is part of their heritage. And they also value the mental health benefits of getting outside so they've made that call. Initially I thought it was to make money but Austria aren't accepting tourists or even people from other areas I think. The Swiss are but have put in place restrictions if you come from a country with a rate of 50 more persons per 100,000 than Switzerland itself has. I suspect Switzerland has a very strong culture of staying open for foreign travel.

These are rational approaches to the issue, rather than fear based ones. Here we have a 5k rule which really has no rational basis apart from discouraging people from leaving their house at all, and we have waited until we have the highest rate in the world to impose restrictions on people coming in to us. This is so frustrating as it means the people coming in are now less likely to have the virus than the people walking down the street already. The time to do this was last February, or any point after that.

Also our focus on foreign travel as a taboo is a bit naive. If you're going somewhere where the rate is the same or lower than here its no more risky than the act of getting there and whatever you do once there. Presuming that foreign travel is irresponsible and dangerous is a little unnuanced.

Anyway, my two cents. When I'm in charge in the next pandemic, I'll ensure no problems. Skiers will also be top of the vaccination list.

Lol, much like us I'm sure they're happy to take the Deutschmark when it comes

Varadkar -

"disproportionate that someone who runs one kilometer more from their house is fined the same as someone who goes on a ski holiday"

Fighting talk from someone who has just presided over the worst decline in Covid numbers in the world.

Leo, your decision to leave borders open in late February, and thereafter in June after we had made enormous sacrifices to get numbers right down, has led directly to the deaths of 3000 people and counting. All for fear of being an "outlier". Being an outlier clearly worse than killing 3000 people, destroying our society, setting an entire generation back perhaps irretrievably and leading to the effective closure of all our society for most of each year.

But nothing like a bit of populism to trump the facts.

Here's a better idea. How about you don't actually criminalise a jogger who strays 6km from their home at all, unless they are doing something inherently likely to lead to the spread of the virus. Belmullet did not become number one due to joggers, or hill walkers, or cyclists, or, for that matter, skiers. It was people gathering inside having returned from abroad. That is the actual problem.

Removed the personal abuse. Just the cynicism of it all getting to me.

In fairness, when the number two in the country has a flippant go at skiers, and this is a thread about going skiing this year I think it is on topic!

Anyway, got my hands on some skis so all I need is a bit of weather now to execute at least some turns.

No, I think its more insidious than that. He's playing on a trope that has emerged since the Ischgl thing, one which doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, and one which detracts totally from a meaningful analysis of the actual situation we're in. And he's using this to deflect attention away from the real issue.

Which is the easier, and more politically advantageous thing for him to do? Point the finger of responsibility at individual skiers or have a think about what actually went wrong over Christmas, if not before?

the beer revolu wrote: »

No one is pointing any finger of responsibility at skiers.
The point being made is that going abroad (for example, on a skiing holiday) is a worse transgression than straying over the 5k limit.

It's ski season, if people are going on holidays now, it's likely to be skiing. If it was summer, I have no doubt he wouldn't have mentioned skiing.

You are just looking for offence, really, I think.

Right. First of all, there are next to no ski resorts open to Irish tourists. No lifts are turning in France or Italy, in Austria its locals only and from reports that is being enforced. Switzerland is allowing tourism but only from countries with an incidence rate within 50 of theirs (which Ireland hasn't been for the last while, but may be approaching now). I don't think you can get into North America. Scandinavia has ski resorts open but given their history of competent government I seriously doubt they are allowing Irish residents in right now. There are probably a handful of other countries that you could in theory go to but they represent a tiny proportion of the skiing market and many would also have obstructions on Irish visitors coming in.

So I highly doubt any reasonable proportion are skiers. On prime time the other night the main flight appeared to be the Canaries which one of the travellers stated was full of Irish.

I'm not looking for offence here. I'm looking for accountability. There has been no acknowledgment of the fcuk up by government in ignoring public health advice in the run up to Christmas WHICH LED DIRECTLY to the catastrophic situation we are in now. The mistake is actually shocking, probably the most deadly mistake in the history of this State? But instead of in any way acknowledging this the likes of Leo go on a moralising crusade against people going for walks in the mountains or people travelling who, given that he refused to go for zero covid, represent a tiny proportion of the population.

But its easier to do that. At a time when we are all living ascetic lives the idea of someone indulging in the opulence of a ski trip is a very attractive target. But that is not what has lead to this situation or in any reasonable way contributed to where we are at right now.

Government is more at fault obviously

No one's blaming the skiers who picked up covid in Ischgl and may have brought it back to their home countries. Any ire I've seen or heard has been directed at the authorities in Ischgl for not taking quicker action when they knew covid was in the resort, not at any groups skiers who caught it.

the beer revolu wrote: »

Deep breaths.
Deep breaths.
Deep slow breaths.

You idiot! Breathing is how this spreads! Not skiing!

And for the record, I AM a skier!

skallywag wrote: »

Seems some Irish lads made it over to St. Anton ...

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0130/1194026-austria-ski-resorts/

A 2000 Euro fine would be a nasty surprise.

Disgusting behaviour, dirty rats will be back here now.

Self rightoues bags of poop ( my polite version).

Hope the gardai fine em again on the way back.

If only we could name and shame.

You should get the antigen tests for the house if ye can

There were people on snowheads reporting (after the fact) very similar symptoms from ski holidays too

There was a confirmed case in France from mid-December from someone who had not travelled:-

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52526554

There was also, and worryingly, a confirmed case in a child in Italy in November

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/study-finds-covid-19-presence-in-italy-in-november-2019/2073897

This of course plays into Chinese propaganda that the virus came to them

In fairness, their public health systems would notice stuff a lot quicker than in Europe, Asia has been more attuned to such stuff due to successive flu like viruses originating there. You would have to think that the first large scale outbreaks being identified there (and the absence of any large scale outbreaks in Europe prior to that) indicate that China is the source. Plus the likely fact it jumped from another species and they have a much more concentrated culture of keeping exotic animals for food.

It is fascinating though.

I've stopped reading the news for a week to give the head a bit of space. Plus, its pointless as you get nowhere and the constant stream of leaks is really annoying.

I looked back earlier in the lockdown an on I think the 26th Feb I posted on snowheads suggesting that people should not be going to Northern Italy skiing and that it was irresponsible. This was in the context of me spending much of the two months prior to that eyeing it up as a destination for a short break once conditions and my work aligned. I was flamed by 90% plus of the people in the thread who said this was a total overreaction, it was only the locked down areas you couldn't visit.

In hindsight, there were about 6 flights a day from Dublin to Northern Italy and I can't believe we allowed that to continue. I mean our absolute trump card was the fact we were an island and we never played it, still haven't. Yes people would have been taken aback and shocked and we would have taken flak for closing borders but within 4 weeks, when the army trucks were ferrying the dead through the streets of Northern Italy, we would have been the envy of Europe.

I'm just surprised that no-one who's job it is to do that, did that. We knew what had happened in China, and once it was in Northern Italy the risk was surely too high.

I can forgive that mistake, because it was uncharted territory, but by the time we were in June, having gotten down to <10 cases, we knew the reality and should never have let the genie back out of the bottle. I can't forgive that mistake.

I mean it seems to me that our policy was actually to allow the virus get here, spread in the community and then lock down. Do you remember those weeks prior to the full lockdown, when pubs were still open but some shut voluntarily, or we weren't going to them. The debate about Paddy's day being on or not. And then waiting until the Taoiseach was in Washington to announce the lockdown. That seems bananas now. Get ahead of the virus should always have been the policy.

I would hope that when this is done with we will at least have learned that lesson and future policy will be to close the island if there is something else looming, put in place infrastructure for essential travellers etc.. Hopefully agree that with the North.

blue note wrote: »

I'll also admit that a part of me wishes I had gone. The snow was meant to have been incredible there

Love this bit the most!

maddness wrote: »

I’ll be skiing in December this year even if I have to drive over I’m going.

We said similar this year though Madness! Or at least I did.

I've actually bought a pair of skis and am keeping an eye on the forecast with a view to getting some turns in on Irish mountains.