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Random Fitness Questions

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Comments

  • #1102
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,654 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    If you've ever watched Silence Of The Lambs, try tucking like Buffalo Bill.

    Or else just lean forward a touch.


  • #1103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'd recommend getting comfortable with failing the barbells. I practiced it a bit for flat and incline so I don't have that fear of being trapped.

    Only works to a point, but if you're at the point of dying under a bar, you likely know what you're doing.


  • #1104
    new2tri19
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭new2tri19


    I was doing deficit deadlifts earlier off a 5inch platform I made but can't get bar to touch shin as there is now no room for feet to get fully under, is this an injury risk?, it felt a little awkward lifting with bar over toes like id less strength out there but it could also be harder because of its a deficit lift ? I have largest dimeter plates on. Obvious solution is make a smaller platform but are you losing benefit of doing the exercise ? Thanks


  • #1105
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,654 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    new2tri19 wrote: »
    I was doing deficit deadlifts earlier off a 5inch platform I made but can't get bar to touch shin as there is now no room for feet to get fully under, is this an injury risk?, it felt a little awkward lifting with bar over toes like id less strength out there but it could also be harder because of its a deficit lift ? I have largest dimeter plates on. Obvious solution is make a smaller platform but are you losing benefit of doing the exercise ? Thanks

    There's no need for a deficit of 5".

    4" is probably the upper end but 2-3" is still plenty. Like any or the variations, the variation itself doesn't need to be drastically different to be an effective variation.


  • #1106
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    5" is an insane deficit. Why have you gone that high?

    1"-2" should be better to start off with. Any more than 2" and you risk the movement pattern straying too far from the normal ROM deadlift to have any proper carryover.

    How is your form on 5". Like, can you keep your back neutral?


  • #1107
    new2tri19
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭new2tri19


    Mr. CooL ICE wrote: »
    5" is an insane deficit. Why have you gone that high?

    1"-2" should be better to start off with. Any more than 2" and you risk the movement pattern straying too far from the normal ROM deadlift to have any proper carryover.

    How is your form on 5". Like, can you keep your back neutral?

    I must of misread something or just wrongly assumed that I needed to be up higher.
    Yeah I kept my back neutral my hips where much lower bent at the knees more but back was ok , maybe I'm doing the whole exercise wrong I dunno .I'll lower to 2 inch

    It felt more like 2 movements first one was to stand up then second half was getting my hips forward


  • #1108
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,654 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Mr. CooL ICE wrote: »
    5" is an insane deficit. Why have you gone that high?

    1"-2" should be better to start off with. Any more than 2" and you risk the movement pattern straying too far from the normal ROM deadlift to have any proper carryover.

    How is your form on 5". Like, can you keep your back neutral?

    The bit in bold is the reason why going higher doesn't make for a better variation. You just need to make certain parts of the lift a little harder with a deficit deadlift.


  • #1109
    Black Sheep
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    Totally agree with the guys.

    A good option to stay consistent is just throw a bumper plate or similar of the desired thickness on the ground, if you don't have anything more suitable.


  • #1110
    Cole
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Cole


    Mr. CooL ICE wrote: »
    How is your form on 5". Like, can you keep your back neutral?

    My thoughts exactly.
    new2tri19 wrote: »
    It felt more like 2 movements first one was to stand up then second half was getting my hips forward

    Oh that doesn't sound healthy.

    All of these deadlift variations pose more potential problems than benefits imo. I've just started to stick with a good old fashioned conventional deadlift and try to get/keep my form right on that each time...too many injuries/twinges doing variations (RDL being the worst) convinced me.


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  • #1111
    new2tri19
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭new2tri19


    Cole wrote: »
    My thoughts exactly.



    Oh that doesn't sound healthy.

    All of these deadlift variations pose more potential problems than benefits imo. I've just started to stick with a good old fashioned conventional deadlift and try to get/keep my form right on that each time...too many injuries/twinges doing variations (RDL being the worst) convinced me.

    RDL was on my list to add , my reading is it's a good exercise.


  • #1112
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,654 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Cole wrote: »
    My thoughts exactly.



    Oh that doesn't sound healthy.

    All of these deadlift variations pose more potential problems than benefits imo. I've just started to stick with a good old fashioned conventional deadlift and try to get/keep my form right on that each time...too many injuries/twinges doing variations (RDL being the worst) convinced me.

    There is nothing wrong with deadlift variations.

    The problems arise when you do them incorrectly and load that.

    Doing an RDL, a deficit deadlift etc pose no problem when done with correct form


  • #1113
    Cole
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Cole


    new2tri19 wrote: »
    RDL was on my list to add , my reading is it's a good exercise.
    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    There is nothing wrong with deadlift variations.

    The problems arise when you do them incorrectly and load that.

    Doing an RDL, a deficit deadlift etc pose no problem when done with correct form

    I never said there was anything wrong with the RDL or any other DL variation.


  • #1114
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,654 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Cole wrote: »
    I never said there was anything wrong with the RDL or any other DL variation.

    You said they pose more potential problems than benefits. That reads like you saying there is something wrong with them.

    The potential problems are the same as you have with a conventional deadlift.

    If you meant to say you find them a problem for you, then that's different.


  • #1115
    Cole
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Cole


    Cole wrote: »
    My thoughts exactly.



    Oh that doesn't sound healthy.

    All of these deadlift variations pose more potential problems than benefits imo. I've just started to stick with a good old fashioned conventional deadlift and try to get/keep my form right on that each time...too many injuries/twinges doing variations (RDL being the worst) convinced me.
    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    You said they pose more potential problems than benefits. That reads like you saying there is something wrong with them.

    The potential problems are the same as you have with a conventional deadlift.

    If you meant to say you find them a problem for you, then that's different.

    See above


  • #1116
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,654 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Cole wrote: »
    All of these deadlift variations pose more potential problems than benefits imo.

    Saying 'imo' reads as though that's your opinion on the variations in general rather than them being an exercise that you just have a problem doing.

    But you've clarified that you chose to avoid DL variations for those reasons and that you weren't saying they're riskier exercises in general so that's fair enough.


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  • #1117
    new2tri19
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭new2tri19


    It's the problem with modern communication things don't read the same in text as if you where just chatting to someone. But everyone means well I'm sure , it's a helpful thread.
    Don't do 5 inch deficits is unambiguously clear though :)


  • #1118
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    new2tri19 wrote: »
    It's the problem with modern communication things don't read the same in text as if you where just chatting to someone.
    Saying “convinced me” at the end of the paragraph doesn’t change the meaning of the first sentence though. I think Alf’s interpretation was reasonable, that’s exactly how I read it. That “variations pose more risk”. It may not be what you meant, but it’s what it said.


    But agree completely that 5” is extreme and probably no longer a deadlift. More a low hack squat.


  • #1119
    Cole
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Cole


    new2tri19 wrote: »
    It's the problem with modern communication things don't read the same in text as if you where just chatting to someone. But everyone means well I'm sure , it's a helpful thread.
    Don't do 5 inch deficits is unambiguously clear though :)

    I think so. I think the DL (and variations) is such a technical movement and it's so important to get every part of the lift as spot on as possible...to avoid injuries that might end up preventing you from actually being able to do the exercise at all in the long run.

    My take on it is that when you throw in DL variations, you're having to master another very technical movement and you run the risk of not being as paranoid about form because you're using lighter weight. And there's the issue of just knackering out your lower back from over training it...again possibly leading to injuries...considering you're probably heavy squatting too.

    Anyway, each to their own. If they benefit you, go for it. There are so many different approaches to training and I've just figured out what works for me.


  • #1120
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,654 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Cole wrote: »
    My take on it is that when you throw in DL variations, you're having to master another very technical movement and you run the risk of not being as paranoid about form because you're using lighter weight. And there's the issue of just knackering out your lower back from over training it...again possibly leading to injuries...considering you're probably heavy squatting too.

    I would disagree for a couple of reasons. You're not learning a whole new movement so the principles of a good deadlift are no different. RDL isn't a massively different movement.

    The weight is lighter but that doesn't mean it's not challenging so if you're conscious of form, then the risk of not being conscious of form isn't there.

    You shouldn't be knackering your lower back if you are conscious of form. The program doesn't have particularly heavy deadlift variations following squats and he's squatting high bar.

    Totally appreciate you don't want to do DL variations and I'm not having a go, to be clear.

    I just think, in general, that they are very effective and if you just bear principles of good form in mind, there shouldn't be an issue.


  • #1121
    Black Sheep
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    I would disagree for a couple of reasons. You're not learning a whole new movement so the principles of a good deadlift are no different. RDL isn't a massively different movement.

    The weight is lighter but that doesn't mean it's not challenging so if you're conscious of form, then the risk of not being conscious of form isn't there.

    You shouldn't be knackering your lower back if you are conscious of form. The program doesn't have particularly heavy deadlift variations following squats and he's squatting high bar.

    Totally appreciate you don't want to do DL variations and I'm not having a go, to be clear.

    I just think, in general, that they are very effective and if you just bear principles of good form in mind, there shouldn't be an issue.

    Yeah, if you can deadlift safely then you can do variations safely - wide grip, deficit, paused, block / rack pull etc. In some ways these movements are even more comparable to a conventional deadlift than an RDL is, but even then an RDL is not so different. As Alf says, general principles.

    If you are not confident in the fundamentals of the conventional deadlift, fine, don't do them. But if someone is not out of that novice period after the first year I would probably be looking to tackle that lack of confidence, fill any knowledge gaps etc.

    If someone wants to start doing sumo then I think there is a lift that's different enough in approach that it takes a bit of learning. It's a deadlift, but I love the way the forces involved feel so different to conventional! But sure that's a good thing, keeps things interesting.

    Worth bearing in mind that injury is not actually lurking behind every corner in the gym, unless you are ego lifting.

    In terms of the value of variations in general, even if your main focus is your conventional deadlift, there's no better way to bring along your weak points. I'm weakest off the ground, you can bet I'm hammering those deficit deadlifts. If physique was my goal and I wanted to focus on my quads, same would apply.


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  • #1122
    Headshot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,621 ✭✭✭✭Headshot


    Can someone recommend gym mats for a carpet floor?

    Just going to be used for a treadmill and a rower so not a big amount required.


  • #1123
    italodisco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭italodisco


    Have to say, the single leg RDL really fecked my left shoulder up

    I'm lifting over 20 years and have never had issues deadlifting, even going to 240kg for 3 reps.

    Then last year decided to do single leg rdl's. Woke up next day with a pain going from my neck to shoulder, I **** you not it still plagues me on and off to this day.

    Sticking with old faithful regular deadlift forever more


  • #1124
    JohnMcm1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 79 ✭✭JohnMcm1


    italodisco wrote: »
    Have to say, the single leg RDL really fecked my left shoulder up

    I'm lifting over 20 years and have never had issues deadlifting, even going to 240kg for 3 reps.

    Then last year decided to do single leg rdl's. Woke up next day with a pain going from my neck to shoulder, I **** you not it still plagues me on and off to this day.

    Sticking with old faithful regular deadlift forever more

    How did you arrive at that conclusion?

    How in the name of god would the load used for a single leg deadlift affect your shoulder more so than doing a regular DL triple with 240 lol.


  • #1125
    italodisco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭italodisco


    JohnMcm1 wrote: »
    How did you arrive at that conclusion?

    How in the name of god would the load used for a single leg deadlift affect your shoulder more so than doing a regular DL triple with 240 lol.

    Absolutely no idea, but my warm up was as good as always and it was my first time ever bothering with the rdl.

    Might possibly have been the one handed element, shoulder might not have liked it. Only time I'd have had a 40kg dumbell in my hands would have been shoulder pressing and bench pressing.

    Might just have been coincidence. Odd that it picked that moment though


  • #1126
    JohnMcm1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 79 ✭✭JohnMcm1


    italodisco wrote: »
    Absolutely no idea, but my warm up was as good as always and it was my first time ever bothering with the rdl.

    Might possibly have been the one handed element, shoulder might not have liked it. Only time I'd have had a 40kg dumbell in my hands would have been shoulder pressing and bench pressing.

    Might just have been coincidence. Odd that it picked that moment though

    Has to be coincidence sure you had 240kg hanging from your shoulder girdle before.


  • #1127
    italodisco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭italodisco


    JohnMcm1 wrote: »
    Has to be coincidence sure you had 240kg hanging from your shoulder girdle before.

    I know, but 2 hands on the bar and a more locked in position.

    I think the single dumbell may have caused bad form regarding scapula position. Feck it too late now lol

    I haven't gone beyond 210 deadlift in the last year, I'm extremely nervous and aware of that dicky shoulder now

    Dumbell bench the same, I can feel the shoulder once I hit 60kg dumbells, that and the fact one of them broke the new garden office floor!!!!


  • #1128
    JohnMcm1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 79 ✭✭JohnMcm1


    italodisco wrote: »
    I know, but 2 hands on the bar and a more locked in position.

    I think the single dumbell may have caused bad form regarding scapula position. Feck it too late now lol

    I haven't gone beyond 210 deadlift in the last year, I'm extremely nervous and aware of that dicky shoulder now

    Dumbell bench the same, I can feel the shoulder once I hit 60kg dumbells, that and the fact one of them broke the new garden office floor!!!!

    That's probably your problem there seriously. Any tissue damage would be well healed at this stage! As long as you've worked your way sensibly back up to your former maxes there's no reason it should happen again.


  • #1129
    Cill94
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    italodisco wrote: »
    Absolutely no idea, but my warm up was as good as always and it was my first time ever bothering with the rdl.

    Might possibly have been the one handed element, shoulder might not have liked it. Only time I'd have had a 40kg dumbell in my hands would have been shoulder pressing and bench pressing.

    Might just have been coincidence. Odd that it picked that moment though

    Think this is most likely reason the shoulder went I'd say. Most injuries are an issue of load just exceeding what tissue is conditioned for. 240kg is a lot more total weight, but it's locked against your legs in a regular deadlift so the shoulder demands are different to the hanging nature of the single leg RDL.


  • #1130
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,839 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    I’ve never actually done single leg RDL’s but I always assumed you had both hands on the bar and balanced on one leg


  • #1131
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,654 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    I’ve never actually done single leg RDL’s but I always assumed you had both hands on the bar and balanced on one leg

    Both hands on a bar, one hand on a dumbbell.


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  • #1132
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    My push day once a week is low rep bench, incline, and OHP, followed by higher rep incline dumbbells and some dips.

    Is this ok if I basically have nothing to do and am happy to burn time in the gym? Should I keep adding some exercises if I'm feeling ok, or does it start working against you? I'm trying to get some strength going but want hypertrophy and I think what I'm doing is working.


  • #1133
    Patsy167
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Patsy167


    Deleted User wrote: »
    My push day once a week is low rep bench, incline, and OHP, followed by higher rep incline dumbbells and some dips.

    Is this ok if I basically have nothing to do and am happy to burn time in the gym? Should I keep adding some exercises if I'm feeling ok, or does it start working against you? I'm trying to get some strength going but want hypertrophy and I think what I'm doing is working.

    Increasing frequency should serve you well. Some good reading here if you are interested - https://www.strongerbyscience.com/frequency-muscle/


  • #1134
    Black Sheep
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    My push day once a week is low rep bench, incline, and OHP, followed by higher rep incline dumbbells and some dips.

    Is this ok if I basically have nothing to do and am happy to burn time in the gym? Should I keep adding some exercises if I'm feeling ok, or does it start working against you? I'm trying to get some strength going but want hypertrophy and I think what I'm doing is working.

    Are you progressing, is the question.

    - Has your bench gone up? Or using heavier weights for the assistance and accessory work? Increased reps and sets on that work?

    - Have you gained upper body mass?

    If not, then yes, you need to change it up. If you are, run it out till you aren’t progressing.

    If you’re doing a push, pull, lower body split then that push day should really be quite hard. On an upper lower split or whole body training you would get more frequency.

    In general I would also say bench and incline and ohp could be a bit redundant. Maybe bench for your main work sets, then do 3-4 sets of sub maximal higher rep back offs or 3-4 hard sets incline bench OR do OHP. Can rotate this. Then I would personally move on to accessories, heavy tricep work, high rep push ups and side delt if it’s the day to fit it in. I prefer to do two upper body days and push and pull in both though.


  • #1135
    Cill94
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Deleted User wrote: »
    My push day once a week is low rep bench, incline, and OHP, followed by higher rep incline dumbbells and some dips.

    Is this ok if I basically have nothing to do and am happy to burn time in the gym? Should I keep adding some exercises if I'm feeling ok, or does it start working against you? I'm trying to get some strength going but want hypertrophy and I think what I'm doing is working.

    As the guys have mentioned, you'll want to up your frequency. Research shows it's definitely better for strength and probably hypertrophy.

    What will happen eventually is you'll reach a point where it will be too difficult to do enough quality work in a single session to spur further progress.

    Maybe look up some of the programmes we've discussed here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114304405


  • #1136
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sorry, don't mean to be rude. Been busy and have had a look at some of the frequency stuff. Will reply properly Thursday hopefully. Thanks for the posts.


  • #1137
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Patsy167 wrote: »
    Increasing frequency should serve you well. Some good reading here if you are interested - https://www.strongerbyscience.com/frequency-muscle/

    Increasing frequency is a bit of a tough one. I have lots of free time but only some days a week. I'm balancing a relationship, work, other hobbies, and too much fondness for alcohol.

    I won't be working this summer though so I think I'll end up in the gym four or five days a week for two months. Then it would make a lot of sense to move to something more tailored to that. Will look into it.
    Black Sheep wrote: »
    Are you progressing, is the question.

    - Has your bench gone up? Or using heavier weights for the assistance and accessory work? Increased reps and sets on that work?

    - Have you gained upper body mass?

    If not, then yes, you need to change it up. If you are, run it out till you aren’t progressing.

    If you’re doing a push, pull, lower body split then that push day should really be quite hard. On an upper lower split or whole body training you would get more frequency.

    In general I would also say bench and incline and ohp could be a bit redundant. Maybe bench for your main work sets, then do 3-4 sets of sub maximal higher rep back offs or 3-4 hard sets incline bench OR do OHP. Can rotate this. Then I would personally move on to accessories, heavy tricep work, high rep push ups and side delt if it’s the day to fit it in. I prefer to do two upper body days and push and pull in both though.

    I've got definite improvement recently. Bench has been going really well since I learned better technique with the back arch, and I learned how to fail in an elegant safe way so I can push myself. Incline feels best though and is my favourite.

    My chest took the longest but now it's finally showing properly and is something people have been commenting on recently. I don't look ripped but I look like I work out.

    I have zero interest in isolated triceps work for now.. The compound stuff I'm doing is building my arms well. And I hate pushups. I didn't think that combo of flat, overhead, and OHP could be seen as redundant. Will have to look into it more.
    Cill94 wrote: »
    As the guys have mentioned, you'll want to up your frequency. Research shows it's definitely better for strength and probably hypertrophy.

    What will happen eventually is you'll reach a point where it will be too difficult to do enough quality work in a single session to spur further progress.

    Maybe look up some of the programmes we've discussed here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114304405

    Thanks for the links. GZCLP is my goal but last time I tried, I hurt my knee which killed my interest in the gym for ages and I stopped going. Knee is fine now. I think I'll ride out whatever residual newbie gains I have left before switching anything up too much or going to a dedicated program.

    My biggest problem at the moment is the squat. I can maintain good form and go all the way down "ass to grass" with the Smith machine but my body refuses to drop even a foot with an unloaded barbell. It's infuriating. Meanwhile I'm in intermediate territory with my deadlift compared to my weight and grip strength is an issue.


    Frankly, I barely know what I'm doing. Definite case of I know enough to know how little I know. The PAs here in my gym are basically fitness motivators. I asked one to teach me the main lifts and he wouldn't budge of a general thing that was $800 in total, when all I wanted was a few weeks of tuition and critique of form. They run around free machines or benches with clients and count while helping the lifts. I never see one of their clients remotely close to failure. They're really impressive when they work out but don't care about form when they coach.

    I would absolutely love to have a proper trainer for a while, but I think that's hard to find as a foreigner in Vietnam.


  • #1138
    Cill94
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Deleted User wrote: »


    My biggest problem at the moment is the squat. I can maintain good form and go all the way down "ass to grass" with the Smith machine but my body refuses to drop even a foot with an unloaded barbell. It's infuriating.

    Try squatting to a box. You can drop the height over time as you gain more mobility and strength.

    boxsquatphoto1.jpeg


  • #1139
    Black Sheep
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    I think you were having similar problems with your squat last year. If you haven't considered remote coaching I think you would be a good candidate for it, for technique fixes and also programming.

    As far as doing tricep accessories, there are a couple of reasons you do them. You can't push compounds hard for every exercise in a workout, and if you did then you wouldn't recover. But compound lifts also aren't an efficient way to target particular muscle groups to bring them along for either aesthetic reasons or in order to correct weak points. Compounds and isolation work complement each other, the latter is not a poor cousin to the former.

    Tricep work fits in great as accessory work at the end of a push day in particular. Hit tricep extensions (or dips, if you want more of a multi joint exercise) hard and you can still recover, even if you've gone to proximity to failure, and it should also help build the bench.


  • #1140
    Patsy167
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Patsy167


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Increasing frequency is a bit of a tough one. I have lots of free time but only some days a week. I'm balancing a relationship, work, other hobbies, and too much fondness for alcohol.

    I won't be working this summer though so I think I'll end up in the gym four or five days a week for two months. Then it would make a lot of sense to move to something more tailored to that. Will look into it.



    I've got definite improvement recently. Bench has been going really well since I learned better technique with the back arch, and I learned how to fail in an elegant safe way so I can push myself. Incline feels best though and is my favourite.

    My chest took the longest but now it's finally showing properly and is something people have been commenting on recently. I don't look ripped but I look like I work out.

    I have zero interest in isolated triceps work for now.. The compound stuff I'm doing is building my arms well. And I hate pushups. I didn't think that combo of flat, overhead, and OHP could be seen as redundant. Will have to look into it more.



    Thanks for the links. GZCLP is my goal but last time I tried, I hurt my knee which killed my interest in the gym for ages and I stopped going. Knee is fine now. I think I'll ride out whatever residual newbie gains I have left before switching anything up too much or going to a dedicated program.

    My biggest problem at the moment is the squat. I can maintain good form and go all the way down "ass to grass" with the Smith machine but my body refuses to drop even a foot with an unloaded barbell. It's infuriating. Meanwhile I'm in intermediate territory with my deadlift compared to my weight and grip strength is an issue.


    Frankly, I barely know what I'm doing. Definite case of I know enough to know how little I know. The PAs here in my gym are basically fitness motivators. I asked one to teach me the main lifts and he wouldn't budge of a general thing that was $800 in total, when all I wanted was a few weeks of tuition and critique of form. They run around free machines or benches with clients and count while helping the lifts. I never see one of their clients remotely close to failure. They're really impressive when they work out but don't care about form when they coach.

    I would absolutely love to have a proper trainer for a while, but I think that's hard to find as a foreigner in Vietnam.

    Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

    There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

    If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

    Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

    Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.


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  • #1141
    Cill94
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Patsy167 wrote: »
    Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

    There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

    If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

    Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

    Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.

    I agree with some of this but I can't get on board with someone who can't do a full depth squat using reverse band safety bar squats! :D

    I also think the whole 'dogmatic' use of big 3 narrative is a wee bit overdone. Sure you don't have to do those exercises, but they are extremely effective and there is more information on them than anything else. I think this issue is more a case of people getting bored of doing the same stuff over and over.


  • #1142
    Black Sheep
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    Could you decide to do incline bench, or press, or do push press and jerks etc in lieu of flat bench? Potentially yes. If someone's goals are hypertrophy / aesthetics then you can get there by training the chest, arms and shoulders without ever flat benching. I'm not sure why you'd want to, but you could... There are bodybuilders out there who used the incline and other variations completely in lieu of flat benching. Obviously Olympic lifters generally do not bench and they still do plenty of heavy pressing and can be said to have reasonable well developed chests.

    Could you decide to do front squats, just heavy single leg work or use machines like hack squat and leg press in lieu of the back squat? Again, yes. In fact, there's a good argument that depending on someone's dimensions there are probably a variety of better ways to train the lower body if aesthetics / hypertrophy are the goal. Paul Carter is really strong on this on Instagram, he's worth checking out.

    When it comes to the deadlift, there are other ways to train your posterior chain / back, but I do think it becomes harder to make the case unless we're just talking about subbing in the trap bar. The trap bar is likely no safer than a straight bar deadlift in my view, in that I think the bracing of the straight bar against your legs in a deadlift or RDL is an underrated aspect from a safety point of view, but it does tick the same box as conventional deadlift, RDL, stiff leg deadlift etc. You could approach training the posterior purely by means of back extensions, glute ham raises, kettlebell work and so on, but I think it's harder to say they will be equivalent to a deadlift or deadlift variation in terms of what you can achieve.

    All of that said, for general strength, aesthetics and sports performance I think the 'big three' should be included and there are not many compelling reasons why not. I don't accept that there's a greater injury risk with them. And most of the technical difficulties people have with them can be addressed with coaching.


  • #1143
    Cill94
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Absolutely agree. If an exercise is stable, multi-joint, and uses a full ROM, then of course you can get big and strong doing it.

    I'm just not a fan of overcomplicating the training process unless it's needed. People always point to 'x' successful bodybuilder who doesn't do squats or deadlifts, but they neglect to consider that almost all those guys trained the basics hard for their formative years. For inexperienced lifters, one of the biggest issues I see is leapfrogging from one exercise or programme to the next, without ever sticking with something long enough to get results, and I think the 'you don't need to do the big 3' sentiment kind of feeds into that.

    I don't really care if someone does an incline bench or a flat bench, but let's not pretend there's evidence that the flat bench is less effective or more likely to get someone hurt. They just want to do something different for the craic. That's fine in small doses, but often times that mindset can be at odds with making longterm progress. Just my perspective from watching people anyway.


  • #1144
    Iguarantee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 385 ✭✭Iguarantee


    Patsy167 wrote: »
    Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

    ...

    Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

    Well said


  • #1145
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,654 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Patsy167 wrote: »
    Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

    There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

    If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

    Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

    Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.

    To a point, I agree.

    But I don't really see how variations of SBD as your big 3 changes things. If the poster is having trouble with squatting a barbell, then perhaps the issue is more fundamental than switching the bar or the bar placement will address.

    While I appreciate you're just giving examples, the alternatives selections above are still just variations and may not actually reduce risk.

    You don't have to squat unless you want to do a competition. But they are an effective exercise. If you want to do a different compound instead of squats, then you have to understand what it is about squats that makes you want to avoid them and why the alternative movement is better. Personally, involving bands makes it more complicated and im not sure what benefit it would be to the majority of gym goers. And squats against bands is asking for trouble if you're having trouble with the squat.

    Of course, if you can always build bigger stronger legs with machines as well.

    Fundamentally, I agree that your reason for training should help frame the selection ofexercises you choose to do. But you also don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and ditch squat or bench or deadlift just because.


  • #1146
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Patsy167 wrote: »
    Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

    There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

    If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

    Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

    Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.

    That’s grand an all philosophically. But the person asking the question probably can’t squat because of mobility issues. They should prioritise fixing these so they can actually squat properly.

    Everyone should be able to perform a back squat unless they had a severe mechanical issue that can’t be fixed. I wouldn’t go looking for other lifts, it’s running away from the problem.

    I’m in favour of box squats as a starting point to getting to full back squats.

    A Smit machine is good for shrugs and nothing else.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • #1147
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Patsy167 wrote: »
    If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

    By all means, do lifts that suit you and your sport.
    But the vast majority of people doing partial rom half lifts, if because the big lifts are too hard and they have an ego issue.

    "I've got a bad shoulder so I don't let the bar touch my chest....but watch this 150kg 1/4 rep".

    Same for deadlifts. It's a big lft. It's a hard lift. Lots of people pull off a trapbar with invest reasons why its better.
    But the reality is, they like the buzzof reduced rom and +40kg on the gram


  • #1148
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Mellor wrote: »
    By all means, do lifts that suit you and your sport.
    But the vast majority of people doing partial rom half lifts, if because the big lifts are too hard and they have an ego issue.

    "I've got a bad shoulder so I don't let the bar touch my chest....but watch this 150kg 1/4 rep".

    Same for deadlifts. It's a big lft. It's a hard lift. Lots of people pull off a trapbar with invest reasons why its better.
    But the reality is, they like the buzzof reduced rom and +40kg on the gram

    Leg press is my favourite. I once leg pressed 650 pounds (living in the states at the time)on a plate loaded leg press. At the time I could squat about 200kg and had an elbow injury

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • #1149
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Mellor wrote: »

    Same for deadlifts. It's a big lft. It's a hard lift. Lots of people pull off a trapbar with invest reasons why its better.
    But the reality is, they like the buzzof reduced rom and +40kg on the gram

    a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL. A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #1150
    Cill94
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    silverharp wrote: »
    a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL. A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

    All that is fair enough, but it should be noted that there's no difference in injury risk between a trap and straight bar. Both can be done safely if you just load them intelligently and spend a bit of time learning efficient technique.


  • #1151
    Black Sheep
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    Cill94 wrote: »
    All that is fair enough, but it should be noted that there's no difference in injury risk between a trap and straight bar. Both can be done safely if you just load them intelligently and spend a bit of time learning efficient technique.

    If anything, at maximal weights the trap bar is slightly less stable, and ergo less safe. At submaximal weights it doesn’t matter.

    Exercise selection based on perceived risk is not really necessary unless there is an existing injury that strongly contraindicates something.

    Otherwise, none of these movements are exactly thumbless grip benching.

    I wonder is this stuff, which is hardly uncommon, the lingering influence of bedwetters like Mike Boyle who see disaster at every turn.


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