Random Fitness Questions

Black Sheep

Brian? wrote: »

Decline always struck me a gym bro exercise. You can load more weight on but you're basically cheating a bench.

I don't do declines at all, and never have, but....

I train conjugate style and some movements are 'easier' and some are 'harder' but you see variations in loading that partly even it out. They are all different enough that if you know what you're doing they can be worth doing. If someone has physique goals it can be even more important to be aware of that.

If you're doing declines you load it more... Same with rack pulls or block pulls in comparison with conventional deadlift. We wouldn't typically say they are 'easier' if you are going heavy enough on them.

There are also other big pressing movements that are 'harder' than the flat bench... Incline bench, spoto bench, paused bench... And to continue the deadlift analogy, you could say that deficit deadlifts and snatch grip deadlifts are 'harder' than conventional deadlifts.

But we wouldn't say don't do flat bench, do spoto press and long paused bench only... Or we wouldn't say only do snatch grip deadlifts, paused deadlifts or deficit deadlifts only etc.

Sometimes a movement that should be 'easier' or 'harder' is also down to the individual. Some people have weak points that mean their rack pull is the same weight as their conventional deadlift, or their floor press might be the same as their conventional bench press, if their triceps are weak and so on..

I think the real cheating is when you do a paused movement but you don't pause, or any movement were you shorten the ROM more than you're supposed to, or where you bounce when you shouldn't etc.

Then there's a further realm where you are not 'cheating' but you are missing the point. Or where you're close but undermining your goals by sub par execution. Bent over rows where forearms and biceps are too engaged springs to mind.

Alf Veedersane

Black Sheep wrote: »

I don't do declines at all, and never have, but....

I train conjugate style and some movements are 'easier' and some are 'harder' but you see variations in loading that partly even it out. They are all different enough that if you know what you're doing they can be worth doing. If someone has physique goals it can be even more important to be aware of that.

If you're doing declines you load it more... Same with rack pulls or block pulls in comparison with conventional deadlift. We wouldn't typically say they are 'easier' if you are going heavy enough on them.

There are also other big pressing movements that are 'harder' than the flat bench... Incline bench, spoto bench, paused bench... And to continue the deadlift analogy, you could say that deficit deadlifts and snatch grip deadlifts are 'harder' than conventional deadlifts.

But we wouldn't say don't do flat bench, do spoto press and long paused bench only... Or we wouldn't say only do snatch grip deadlifts, paused deadlifts or deficit deadlifts only etc.

Sometimes a movement that should be 'easier' or 'harder' is also down to the individual. Some people have weak points that mean their rack pull is the same weight as their conventional deadlift, or their floor press might be the same as their conventional bench press, if their triceps are weak and so on..

I think the real cheating is when you do a paused movement but you don't pause, or any movement were you shorten the ROM more than you're supposed to, or where you bounce when you shouldn't etc.

Then there's a further realm where you are not 'cheating' but you are missing the point. Or where you're close but undermining your goals by sub par execution. Bent over rows where forearms and biceps are too engaged springs to mind.

I don't necessarily think it doesn't have any value but I just haven't found any carryover and the movement feels a lot more removed from normal bench, with respect to bar path but that's more a specificity thing.

For me, its overrated because I don't feel it has ever added a whole lot of value as a variation. Take a mid-range pin press...you can load that a bit heavier but you're still moving the bar in a relatively similar path to bench. Rack pulls and block pulls, you should still be executing like you would a deadlift from that height.

I wouldn't think it would be a variation I would let dictate choice of bench for home anyway. But that's not to say it is a movement that has little value for everyone.

Black Sheep

Yes, I don't do it either.

I cycle through a lot of other movements that I vastly prefer.

Bench
Spoto press
Incline bench
Pin bench
Floor press
Thick grip
Larsen press

Those are the most similar to bench but I have a series of press and press variations I use too.

Press
pin press
Seated press etc

I change my main lift weekly where there are people doing conjugate who only switch up every several weeks. Overall what I see in my programming is that there is a natural variation in loading (and stress) from cycling through the different lifts. It's part of the attraction of conjugate for me, but I'm not getting ground down from endless flat benching.

Black Sheep

new2tri19 wrote: »

Fair play for the detailed reply appreciate it. Yeah I was thinking 12kg minimum then I asked the wife would she like some weights and she said she would use up to 10kg so the full set seems a no brainer now. I doubt id need anything much heavier than 25kg so I'll go ahead with that set . I can always add more later.
Thanks again .

I have a dumbbell rack and hex dumbbells, they are definitely a luxury option if you already have a bar, rack and plates, but there's no doubt they add a real sense of "I have a proper gym at home".

If you set up your workouts that you're using your bar for the main lifts of the day, then usually what will happen is that the dumbbells naturally lend themselves to being employed for the assistance work. In theory you usually can come up with a barbell-based movement, or something that just involves bodyweight, or a plate, or bands, but if you have the dummbells there then there's definitley a convenience and cool factor in being able to just wander over and pick up a set at the right weight.

If I was going to suggest a cheaper alternative if you're not sure...

An ez curl bar is more manoeuvrable and more elbow friendly for performing a lot of assistance exercises. Curl variations, lying and overhead tricep extensions etc.

But band work is great, especially when you can attack them to a rack and do pull down variations, face pulls etc.

Cill94

I think that people often don't realise that a properly executed bench press is already at least partially declined due to the back arch.

Very hard to hold an arch on a decline bench without sliding, due to the angle and no way to push feet into ground, so it seems like a waste.

If for some reason you needed to really target lower pec I would go for a dip, as was mentioned.

new2tri19

Black Sheep wrote: »

I have a dumbbell rack and hex dumbbells, they are definitely a luxury option if you already have a bar, rack and plates, but there's no doubt they add a real sense of "I have a proper gym at home".

If you set up your workouts that you're using your bar for the main lifts of the day, then usually what will happen is that the dumbbells naturally lend themselves to being employed for the assistance work. In theory you usually can come up with a barbell-based movement, or something that just involves bodyweight, or a plate, or bands, but if you have the dummbells there then there's definitley a convenience and cool factor in being able to just wander over and pick up a set at the right weight.

If I was going to suggest a cheaper alternative if you're not sure...

An ez curl bar is more manoeuvrable and more elbow friendly for performing a lot of assistance exercises. Curl variations, lying and overhead tricep extensions etc.

But band work is great, especially when you can attack them to a rack and do pull down variations, face pulls etc.

Yeah sound I've ordered them dumbells from gymless delivery first week of April , same as the adjustable bench I ordered from them. I'll take a look at the ez curl bar may add them .
I'm frugal enough in other areas of life but don't mind splashing out on hobbies I'm keen on , I stick 100 quid a week away and it's spent normally on bikes- races - runners etc but this year it's mostly on gym stuff.
Bought a log cabin couple of years ago for back garden mainly for zwifting it's turned out a great investment with lockdown.
Pity I never lifted when weights were cheaper seems everything is at a premium now but supply and demand and all that I don't mind.
I might add a lat pull down wall mounted pulley that can add Olympic weights that's the only thing I feel I'm missing now .

Black Sheep

A lat pull down / low row machine is one of the few machines I would consider for our set up, but we considered the footprint and on balance we are happy enough to "make do" with pull up variations on the rack, and some band pulldowns. Plenty of horizontal rowing options with barbell and DBs in lieu of the low row. Would get one if we had bigger space. I considered a pulley system but too much hassle.

If space was no object I would throw in a lying leg curl machine, love them. And a folding reverse hyper, why not... :rolleyes:

new2tri19

Black Sheep wrote: »

A lat pull down / low row machine is one of the few machines I would consider for our set up, but we considered the footprint and on balance we are happy enough to "make do" with pull up variations on the rack, and some band pulldowns. Plenty of horizontal rowing options with barbell and DBs in lieu of the low row. Would get one if we had bigger space. I considered a pulley system but too much hassle.

If space was no object I would throw in a lying leg curl machine, love them. And a folding reverse hyper, why not... :rolleyes:

Yeah it would be nice with unlimited space , I've enough room left for a lat pulldown machine. I like to keep my TT bike on the turbo for convenience I suppose I could move that into the side shed room part where my other bikes are dumped.

I also have an armchair and mini fridge where I once considered I might use it as a room to watch some sport but alas that never happened and the chair is full of toys and stuff the wife routinely dumps out in the shed that I have to find a place for

It's really about how commited you are , a lad with one plate could probably get a better workout than a lad with a full set up if he wanted it more.

new2tri19

Sorry for all the questions just working out my program for rest of week , what's the consensus on programming core work in a training program that includes compound lifts. Do you get enough core work from the compounds? If the answer is no , how often would you train core if doing a 4 day plan ? Thanks .

the baby bull elephant

new2tri19 wrote: »

Sorry for all the questions just working out my program for rest of week , what's the consensus on programming core work in a training program that includes compound lifts. Do you get enough core work from the compounds? If the answer is no , how often would you train core if doing a 4 day plan ? Thanks .

I wouldn't overdo it but I'd certainly throw some in. I know Brian Alsruhe usually includes core work in his strength giant set and it doesn't negatively effect him so that's an option.

I think most people would throw it in at the end of the session if they have time. With that approach I prefer doing it on my squat and deadlift day if I'm not doing everyday. Would typically do three or four sets of planks, ab rollouts, dragonflags etc things of that intensity.

Alf Veedersane

In theory you work your core hard in compounds but I don't think that's necessarily true. Perhaps not to the extent that it should be and sometimes improperly. Or both. And not having a strong core might be a cause of that too.

I like to add some in at the end. Rotate exercises every few weeks

Deano7788

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I like to add some in at the end. Rotate exercises every few weeks

Except for Ab Rollouts. Never take those out. It only leads to pain when you go back to them...

Alf Veedersane

Deano7788 wrote: »

Except for Ab Rollouts. Never take those out. It only leads to pain when you go back to them...

Well, yeah. I'm scared to drop those out now :pac:

I'm doing more ab work now during the lockdown workouts and they're included in every workout. I've changed the other 2...left the rollouts.

I dont do core work and I definitely don't get enough from compounds haha
Squish in the middle

Brian?

Khari Whining Sprint wrote: »

I dont do core work and I definitely don't get enough from compounds haha
Squish in the middle

I found a great new core exercise last week. I press a child over my head and walk around the living room. The children need to be willing participants and preferably your own.

Alf Veedersane

I've been slowly building up with ab rollouts since the start of January and those god-awful DOMS are a thing of the past.

So I decided to progress to standing ab rollout negatives....just starting from standing and rolling out, knees to floor and back like the second part of a normal rollout from the knees. Sets of 8. Said I'd take it easy.

DOMS. Actually, there wasn't much of a delay so OMS. FFS.

new2tri19

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I've been slowly building up with ab rollouts since the start of January and those god-awful DOMS are a thing of the past.

So I decided to progress to standing ab rollout negatives....just starting from standing and rolling out, knees to floor and back like the second part of a normal rollout from the knees. Sets of 8. Said I'd take it easy.

DOMS. Actually, there wasn't much of a delay so OMS. FFS.

Is an ab roller better than a barbell ? I've done a few ab rollouts with barbell and some 2.5kg plates on it , stopped doing them because after a few I could feel it hurt my lower back more than my abs

Alf Veedersane

new2tri19 wrote: »

Is an ab roller better than a barbell ? I've done a few ab rollouts with barbell and some 2.5kg plates on it , stopped doing them because after a few I could feel it hurt my lower back more than my abs

Could do them with a barbell. Same principle.

If you're getting lower back pain, you might well be letting your lower back go into extension and thats putting stress on it. You can work on that with bracing and building up to doing a full one

new2tri19

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If you're getting lower back pain, you might well be letting your lower back go into extension and thats putting stress on it. You can work on that with bracing and building up to doing a full one

Yeah my first attempt at them was 3 sets of 15 :eek: wondering why i was in such pain. I'll give them another go cheers.

Dtp1979

Worst ab doms of my life was from an ab roller last year. I’m pretty sure they lasted 2 weeks.

Alf Veedersane

new2tri19 wrote: »

Yeah my first attempt at them was 3 sets of 15 :eek: wondering why i was in such pain. I'll give them another go cheers.

Start with lower reps.

If you start with 3 sets of 15 incorrectly, you'll likely have some pain in your lower back.

If you start with 3 sets of 15 done correctly, you'll have horrendous DOMS.

Ease into it. Do sets of 5. If you're finding it difficult to brace and letting your hips sag, then shorten the range of motion. Don't go all the way out ..even using something to stop against at the range you're comfortable with (like here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mCsddJHsSv4). Build from there.

Some movements look like they should be straightforward but can quite easily be done wrong and give little/no benefit. Better to work your way up from lower reps even with a shorter ROM if necessary but doing them right and then you have a strong foundation for a really good movement.

Same principle as you'd do with a squat except with a less of a stark realisation that you've jumped in beyond where you should :pac:

new2tri19

Great idea that using a wall thanks. Yeah I decided to never touch that exercise again after 3 sets of 15 , I'll give it a few short sets of 3-5 with up against a wall and progress it by moving away .

el Fenomeno

Is barbell press supposed to be "easier" than dumbbell press?

For example, I could press X kg with ease on a barbell, and could probably add on 10kg or so to that before I get to my limit.

If I split X in 2 and do dumbbell presses instead (with each dumbbell being half of X) then I struggle mightily.

Is that normal?

Alf Veedersane

el Fenomeno wrote: »

Is barbell press supposed to be "easier" than dumbbell press?

For example, I could press X kg with ease on a barbell, and could probably add on 10kg or so to that before I get to my limit.

If I split X in 2 and do dumbbell presses instead (with each dumbbell being half of X) then I struggle mightily.

Is that normal?

Yeah. You wouldn't typically be doing the same.

The barbell is more stable so with dumbbells the muscles used to stabilise come into play as well. What kind of difference are we talking about?

the baby bull elephant

el Fenomeno wrote: »

Is barbell press supposed to be "easier" than dumbbell press?

For example, I could press X kg with ease on a barbell, and could probably add on 10kg or so to that before I get to my limit.

If I split X in 2 and do dumbbell presses instead (with each dumbbell being half of X) then I struggle mightily.

Is that normal?

It's a much more unstable lift. In terms of strict pressing what you're experiencing is very normal.

bladespin

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Worst ab doms of my life was from an ab roller last year. I’m pretty sure they lasted 2 weeks.

Very much this! Worst muscle cramp ever from a roller, it’s a killer (that’s why I do them ever few days!)

new2tri19

I gotta ask this rather embarrassing question , I tried barbell shrugs as they where programmed but how is this comfortable without your manhood getting in the way !!, I don't have heavy enough dumbells yet , any alternative way to do exercise I expect your supposed to keep barbell close to body as possible .?

bladespin

new2tri19 wrote: »

I gotta ask this rather embarrassing question , I tried barbell shrugs as they where programmed but how is this comfortable without your manhood getting in the way !!, I don't have heavy enough dumbells yet , any alternative way to do exercise I expect your supposed to keep barbell close to body as possible .?

Lean forward a little, will hit traps etc better.

Black Sheep

new2tri19 wrote: »

I gotta ask this rather embarrassing question , I tried barbell shrugs as they where programmed but how is this comfortable without your manhood getting in the way !!, I don't have heavy enough dumbells yet , any alternative way to do exercise I expect your supposed to keep barbell close to body as possible .?

Behind the back barbell shrug.

You could also widen or narrow your grip and see how that is.

Alf Veedersane

If you've ever watched Silence Of The Lambs, try tucking like Buffalo Bill.

Or else just lean forward a touch.