Random Fitness Questions

ancapailldorcha

Brian? wrote: »

What gym are you in? If they made you a weights program that consists of dumb bell curls I would consider leaving it.

To be honest, it's the one nearest the house and it's reasonably cheap. It's a ten minute walk away which is great because the showers are abysmal.

silverharp

Brian? wrote: »

You and that bleeding trap bar again!

its seriously underrated plus if a gym is busy there will always be one tucked in the back somewhere. Its something to do on day 1 before trying to get one's head around other lifts.

vigos

Anyone have any recommendations of a decent gym for weight training (squats, deadlifts, etc) in Ennis?

new2tri19

I can do press ups no problem following some YouTube video and it's 45 second press up , rest 15, 45 sec pike press rest 15 , some other exercises then 30 seconds archer press up right side , 30 seconds archer press up left side .
This is killing me I can't do the archer press ups I get pain in outside of my shoulder , even doing them on my knees is hard . Can do all the rest of video 45 seconds diamond press up I make it to 30 before dropping to knees .
Are archer press ups really hard or is it a flexiblity issues ? Should someone that can do 50 press ups straight be able to do some archers ? Not sure whether to continue with it and hope strength improves or I haven't the flexibility for it .
Thanks

Reps4jesus

if its causing you pain then stop doing them would be my advice until you have figured out what is causing it. Is it the same on both sides for you?
I find them quite difficult to do also but dont experience any pain with them. do you have your hands externally rotated when you are doing them?

Cill94

new2tri19 wrote: »

I can do press ups no problem following some YouTube video and it's 45 second press up , rest 15, 45 sec pike press rest 15 , some other exercises then 30 seconds archer press up right side , 30 seconds archer press up left side .
This is killing me I can't do the archer press ups I get pain in outside of my shoulder , even doing them on my knees is hard . Can do all the rest of video 45 seconds diamond press up I make it to 30 before dropping to knees .
Are archer press ups really hard or is it a flexiblity issues ? Should someone that can do 50 press ups straight be able to do some archers ? Not sure whether to continue with it and hope strength improves or I haven't the flexibility for it .
Thanks

Archer push-ups are a harder push-up variations, so it's not surprising that you would get pain on these, but not on regular push-ups.

TBH someone who can do 50 straight push-ups really should be able to do at least a few archers, so I would recommend you consider:

1. Are you really doing 50 strict push-ups? Your entire body needs to touch the floor, without your hips sagging, and your arms should be at about a 45 degree angle. I'm inclined to think it's a form issue as 50 strict push-ups is fairly tough.

2. Are you doing any kind of pulling work? If all you do is push then you can develop an imbalance in the shoulder joint which will cause pain. You need to be doing just as many rows as you do push-ups. If you don't have equipment you could buy some bands or do rows off a chair or table.

hayoc

Cill94 wrote: »

2. Are you doing any kind of pulling work? If all you do is push then you can develop an imbalance in the shoulder joint which will cause pain. You need to be doing just as many rows as you do push-ups. If you don't have equipment you could buy some bands or do rows off a chair or table.

I go with a higher ratio of pulling to pushing, my reasoning being that I am reaching forward (pushing) all day every day on the computer whereas no ordinary daytime activity of mine involves pulling so I pull more in the gym than I push.

Alf Veedersane

And sometimes it might just be a movement that your shoulders may not enjoy, even with all the mobility work in the world.

I always work on shoulder mobility but dips kill my left shoulder.

I would avoid doing them for a while and work on shoulder mobility (as opposed to flexibility) and then go back and try but if you have to ditch them, so be it.

silverharp

hayoc wrote: »

I go with a higher ratio of pulling to pushing, my reasoning being that I am reaching forward (pushing) all day every day on the computer whereas no ordinary daytime activity of mine involves pulling so I pull more in the gym than I push.

Ive seen the idea floating around that you should pull twice as much as you push, I don't know how cast iron that it and how much is bro science. I sort of do that with bench v seated row but I do the same no of Lat Pull down sets to OHP. Then I do about an hour and a half on the Concept 2 a week so there is an element of pulling there too

Alf Veedersane

silverharp wrote: »

Ive seen the idea floating around that you should pull twice as much as you push, I don't know how cast iron that it and how much is bro science. I sort of do that with bench v seated row but I do the same no of Lat Pull down sets to OHP. Then I do about an hour and a half on the Concept 2 a week so there is an element of pulling there too

As far as I can tell it's a rule of thumb based on trying to minimise injuries that may occur from too much pressing (esp for the shoulders) and probably for posture reasons too, particularly if you work in an office.

It's a bit more nuanced than general movement patterns because a good balance will take into account the mechanics of the pulling and pushing movements being done.

But it always makes sense to balance the anterior with the posterior.

silverharp

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

As far as I can tell it's a rule of thumb based on trying to minimise injuries that may occur from too much pressing (esp for the shoulders) and probably for posture reasons too, particularly if you work in an office.

It's a bit more nuanced than general movement patterns because a good balance will take into account the mechanics of the pulling and pushing movements being done.

But it always makes sense to balance the anterior with the posterior.

in terms of perceived effort , pulling exercises tend to feel easier

speaking of ratios , since July I do same amount of sets with bench press and OHP, weights are lower obviously, one day will be OHP and later in the week bench. i tend to find the OHP more taxing so at the moment I do it on a Sun and Bench on a Thursday. Is there any reason to favor one over the other?

Cill94

silverharp wrote: »

Ive seen the idea floating around that you should pull twice as much as you push, I don't know how cast iron that it and how much is bro science. I sort of do that with bench v seated row but I do the same no of Lat Pull down sets to OHP. Then I do about an hour and a half on the Concept 2 a week so there is an element of pulling there too

It’s a popular saying that has good intentions but zero evidence to support it.

I think it’s better to look at pulling in terms of strength standards as opposed to an arbitrary number of sets that you have to do.

For example, if you’re benching bodyweight then you should really be able to do a at least 5 chin-ups. Yes this is also an arbitrary standard, but I think it makes more sense and doesn’t have someone doing a load of potentially useless extra sets for the sake of it.

Mellor

Cill94 wrote: »

m
I think it’s better to look at pulling in terms of strength standards as opposed to an arbitrary number of sets that you have to do.

For example, if you’re benching bodyweight then you should really be able to do a at least 5 chin-ups.

It’s based on total volume not total reps.
This has the effect of account for strength standards, to a degree.

Eg if somebody is benching BW 3x5, But only doing 3 x 3 on pulls ups. There pull volume is lower, so extra pull ups sets are needed.

Pressing and row volume need to be included.
1:1 is minimum. 1:2 is a decent target.

Can do the same for Hip:Quad

Alf Veedersane

silverharp wrote: »

speaking of ratios , since July I do same amount of sets with bench press and OHP, weights are lower obviously, one day will be OHP and later in the week bench. i tend to find the OHP more taxing so at the moment I do it on a Sun and Bench on a Thursday. Is there any reason to favor one over the other?

If you're just training to get stronger, do both. They complement each other but one is a vertical press and the other is a horizontal press so the muscles recruited are different.

silverharp

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

If you're just training to get stronger, do both. They complement each other but one is a vertical press and the other is a horizontal press so the muscles recruited are different.

intuitively thats what I was going for, that doing it in 2 directions would be more even, I was doing a certain amount of OH stuff earlier in the year but it was more bags and balls and light bars. Im keeping it simple this time round, they do seem to compliment the bench. If I get through this month Ill be well ahead of March

Mellor

silverharp wrote: »

intuitively thats what I was going for, that doing it in 2 directions would be more even, I was doing a certain amount of OH stuff earlier in the year but it was more bags and balls and light bars. Im keeping it simple this time round, they do seem to compliment the bench. If I get through this month Ill be well ahead of March

The most fundamental upper body is horizontal press, vertical press, horizontal pull and vertical pull.
Could be Bench, OHP, Row, Pull up, or variations of any of them.

Everything after that is on some level accessory lifts.

Cill94

Mellor wrote: »

It’s based on total volume not total reps.
This has the effect of account for strength standards, to a degree.

Eg if somebody is benching BW 3x5, But only doing 3 x 3 on pulls ups. There pull volume is lower, so extra pull ups sets are needed.

Pressing and row volume need to be included.
1:1 is minimum. 1:2 is a decent target.

Can do the same for Hip:Quad

Even if it's total volume, there's still no evidence to support that position of needing double the pulling to pushing.

I think training each movement pattern equally is about as reasonable a position as you can take. Individuals may need to do more volume on certain things for whatever reasons.

You can be deficient in any area, and you can overdo pulling and posterior chain work just like you can anterior.

new2tri19

Cill94 wrote: »

Archer push-ups are a harder push-up variations, so it's not surprising that you would get pain on these, but not on regular push-ups.

TBH someone who can do 50 straight push-ups really should be able to do at least a few archers, so I would recommend you consider:

1. Are you really doing 50 strict push-ups? Your entire body needs to touch the floor, without your hips sagging, and your arms should be at about a 45 degree angle. I'm inclined to think it's a form issue as 50 strict push-ups is fairly tough.

2. Are you doing any kind of pulling work? If all you do is push then you can develop an imbalance in the shoulder joint which will cause pain. You need to be doing just as many rows as you do push-ups. If you don't have equipment you could buy some bands or do rows off a chair or table.

Yeah I do rows aswell not as many , I would do 3 sets of 12 barbell rows with a heavy weight .

I'm doing strict push ups chest to ground , core tight but I just noticed something when I watched an archer push up tutorial that they start in a push up position with elbows tucked in . My push ups are with elbows almost 90 degrees like a T position. I can't believe I've been doing push ups wrong all these years .
I can do maybe 3-5 archer push ups each side at the moment fully rested but where they come in the workout video I don't manage any cause my shoulders seem to be finished after the pike and regular push up before trying them .

new2tri19

https://youtu.be/mm47bCaCzpQ

Cill94

new2tri19 wrote: »

Yeah I do rows aswell not as many , I would do 3 sets of 12 barbell rows with a heavy weight .

I'm doing strict push ups chest to ground , core tight but I just noticed something when I watched an archer push up tutorial that they start in a push up position with elbows tucked in . My push ups are with elbows almost 90 degrees like a T position. I can't believe I've been doing push ups wrong all these years .
I can do maybe 3-5 archer push ups each side at the moment fully rested but where they come in the workout video I don't manage any cause my shoulders seem to be finished after the pike and regular push up before trying them .

Yeah you need to be doing them with your elbows tucked to about 45 degrees. That 'T position'/90 degree angle is terrible for your shoulders in heavy pushing exercises.

As for the routine, I'm just gonna suggest you give this a look:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058104438

new2tri19

Cill94 wrote: »

Yeah you need to be doing them with your elbows tucked to about 45 degrees. That 'T position'/90 degree angle is terrible for your shoulders in heavy pushing exercises.

As for the routine, I'm just gonna suggest you give this a look:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058104438

Thanks mate appreciate that , will give it a look . Weights is a minefield so much to learn loads of conflicting information loads of get ripped quick stuff, hard to wade through it all and find good information, thank God for boards.

Mellor

Cill94 wrote: »

Even if it's total volume, there's still no evidence to support that position of needing double the pulling to pushing.

I think training each movement pattern equally is about as reasonable a position as you can take. Individuals may need to do more volume on certain things for whatever reasons.

You can be deficient in any area, and you can overdo pulling and posterior chain work just like you can anterior.

I don’t know if there is a clinical study or anything that backs up a 2:1 ratio from the get go.
However, looking around at the average gym goer, it’s pretty common to see guys with over developed anterior. Walking around hunched up in front. Far more common that the reverse.

If you do vert/hori push/pull in equal sets/reps you end up around a 1.25:1 ratio anyway due to press being weak.

Personal I spend most of my time training a sport that often leads to a front imbalance. For me targeting 2:1 seems good. But you’re right, everyone needs to assess their own strength balance.

Cill94

Mellor wrote: »

I don’t know if there is a clinical study or anything that backs up a 2:1 ratio from the get go.
However, looking around at the average gym goer, it’s pretty common to see guys with over developed anterior. Walking around hunched up in front. Far more common that the reverse.

If you do vert/hori push/pull in equal sets/reps you end up around a 1.25:1 ratio anyway due to press being weak.

Personal I spend most of my time training a sport that often leads to a front imbalance. For me targeting 2:1 seems good. But you’re right, everyone needs to assess their own strength balance.

I would contend that the majority of those guys look like that because they do almost no pulling work, not because they are only doing a 1:1 ratio. Also, posture differences cannot simply be boiled down to a strength imbalances, though that's a separate topic.

I have encountered a large amount of people (lads in particular) who do literally no pulling exercises. A really significant % of gym goers think strength training is just bench press and curls.

I would also contend that a front 'imbalance' is actually anatomically normal. We are mechanically built to be stronger at pushing than we are pulling. I don't think it's realistic or necessary for someone to chase an equal strength level in their bench and row, for example.

silverharp

Cill94 wrote: »

I would contend that the majority of those guys look like that because they do almost no pulling work, not because they are only doing a 1:1 ratio. Also, posture differences are not as simple as a strength imbalances, though that's a separate topic.

I have encountered a large amount of people (lads in particular) who do literally no pulling exercises. A really significant % of gym goers think strength training is just bench press and curls.

I would also contend that a front 'imbalance' is actually anatomically normal. We are mechanically built to be stronger at pushing than we are pulling. I don't think it's realistic or necessary for someone to chase an equal strength level in there bench and row, for example.

bruh, you gotta row to grow

Mellor

Cill94 wrote: »

I would contend that the majority of those guys look like that because they do almost no pulling work, not because they are only doing a 1:1 ratio.

Well that was the point.
Regardless of whether or not there’s a benefit starting out with a 1:2 ratio. A huge majority train with such an imbalance for years that now they benefit from biasing rowing.

I would also contend that a front 'imbalance' is actually anatomically normal. We are mechanically built to be stronger at pushing than we are pulling. I don't think it's realistic or necessary for someone to chase an equal strength level in their bench and row, for example.

By imbalance I was referring to tight v weak agonists pair, shoulder/hip issues from same rather than comparing 1RMs.

Although I’d question if we are mechanically stronger at pushing.
Horizontally sure, Bench will typically be great than row. But vertically pull-ups will be stronger than OHP. But then a pull up isn’t pull full BW either.

silverharp

is there a % range of OHP weight to Bench that's worth keeping in mind?

Mellor

silverharp wrote: »

is there a % range of OHP weight to Bench that's worth keeping in mind?

60-65% seems normal


It it was <50% or >75% less something is prob wrong

Brian?

Cill94 wrote: »

I would contend that the majority of those guys look like that because they do almost no pulling work, not because they are only doing a 1:1 ratio. Also, posture differences cannot simply be boiled down to a strength imbalances, though that's a separate topic.

I have encountered a large amount of people (lads in particular) who do literally no pulling exercises. A really significant % of gym goers think strength training is just bench press and curls.

I would also contend that a front 'imbalance' is actually anatomically normal. We are mechanically built to be stronger at pushing than we are pulling. I don't think it's realistic or necessary for someone to chase an equal strength level in their bench and row, for example.

You really need to factor in lifestyle. I commute by bike to sir a desk. To maintain healthy shoulders I need to do an absolute minimum of 2:1 pull:push.

I never in all my time met someone with an over developed upper back compared to their chest and front delts.

Cill94

Brian? wrote: »

You really need to factor in lifestyle. I commute by bike to sir a desk. To maintain healthy shoulders I need to do an absolute minimum of 2:1 pull:push.

I never in all my time met someone with an over developed upper back compared to their chest and front delts.

Sure, as I said, individuals may need to add more for specific reasons.

To give my own anecdote, I have a long history of problems with my right shoulder. Took my pulling volume up to double my pushing (and beyond) based on advice from professionals, and it did nothing for the pain. I just got really strong at pulling and weaker at pushing.

I take your point that it's less likely to find someone who's more developed in the upper back, but again I think that's normal. I just think this over-emphasis on upper back work is really not all that helpful for people, especially if someone needs to get out of pain like I did. Scapular winging is an example of an issue where the treatment may require the person to do more pushing work, in order to strengthen the serratus anterior.

I hear things like 'you can never do enough rows' spouted a lot, which to me is nonsense. You can overdo anything. I would personally just tell people that as part of a good programme they need to be getting stronger at rows and chin-ups, and leave it at that. I don't see a need to do loads of extra volume unless you specifically want to get really good at those things. I can see all your guys points though.

Mellor

Brian? wrote: »

You really need to factor in lifestyle. I commute by bike to sir a desk. To maintain healthy shoulders I need to do an absolute minimum of 2:1 pull:push.

That is similar to the situation I was getting at. Hours training/sitting/being in a bad position means the start position is ridiculously bias to begin with.

I never in all my time met someone with an over developed upper back compared to their chest and front delts.

I’d imagine rock climbers could have pretty overdeveloped backs. Bit of a niche case.