General British politics discussion thread

timsey tiger · 21-03-2020 11:17pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

On an island basis - I don't believe it could ever be acceptable to the loyalist people up the north to cut themselves off from GB.
edit : and as Aegir has already said, would cause us a lot of supply problems.

I guess, hopefully we won't find out.

PommieBast · 21-03-2020 11:25pm

timsey tiger wrote: »

What is the status of UK now is our border with them an external eu border that can be closed or does the transition rules mean it is not or just effectively not?

Ireland and the UK is outside the Schengen area which muddies the water a little bit. Ireland is also a little unusual in that it does not treat UK nationals as foreigners, and I am not aware of any country that has completly closed its borders to non-foreigners.

I'm a UK national but have lived/worked in Ireland for the last 7 years. I might get quarantined but I doubt I would actually get stopped.

beggars_bush · 22-03-2020 12:50am

How long until France- UK border is closed?

Peregrinus · 22-03-2020 6:05am

beggars_bush wrote: »

How long until France- UK border is closed?

Which side do you expect it to be closed from?

Peregrinus · 22-03-2020 6:19am

Aegir wrote: »

I doubt Northern Ireland will get hit anywhere as bad as mainland UK.

To be honest, I see no reason why it wouldn't. Not, at any rate, if it implements the same measures as the rest of the UK, and doesn't isolate from the rest of the UK.

Aegir wrote: »

Closing the ferry ports would mean massive shortages here, so probably not a good idea.

Yes. Truth is that NI is too small to completely close its borders for very long; it would be unsustainable for more than a very short time. (The same is true for IRL.)

I think what small areas have to think about, realistically, is not closing their borders but managing and controlling cross-border flows. NI could certainly restrict ferry services to essential supplies and the workers needed to transport them. You'd have to think carefully, obviously, about what counts as "essential supplies", but it could be done. And NI could similarly restrict passenger traffic through air and sea ports to people travelling for an approved reason.

It could if necessary also attempt to do the same along the border with the Republic. Obviously there are political issues with doing that, just as there would be with controlling the sea border with GB. But there comes a point where political considerations have to take second place to public safety. I think the bigger issue is that it would be very difficult in practice to operate controls along the land border. Compared to controlling the sea border, it would be a much bigger, much more expensive, much more disruptive and much less effective operation. But - politics again - it might be necessary to attempt to do this in order to make the operation of sea border controls politically acceptable.

CelticRambler · 22-03-2020 8:42am

Peregrinus wrote: »

beggars_bush wrote: »

How long until France- UK border is closed?

Which side do you expect it to be closed from?

The French side, and "soon" is what the French PM said a few days ago, in response to Johnson's inaction. He hasn't retracted that statement, as France is preparing now to reinforce internal movement restrictions while Johnson continues to bluster.

Roanmore · 22-03-2020 10:00am

From the Sunday Times (Tim Shipman) this morning

At a private engagement at the end of February, Cummings outlined the government’s strategy. Those present say it was “herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad”.’

If true surely Cummings can't survive that?

PommieBast · 22-03-2020 6:24pm

Roanmore wrote: »

At a private engagement at the end of February, Cummings outlined the government’s strategy. Those present say it was “herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad”.’

If true surely Cummings can't survive that?

He'll survive. Not sure about him saying it but the remark itself does not surprise me.

22-03-2020 6:48pm

PommieBast wrote: »

He'll survive. Not sure about him saying it but the remark itself does not surprise me.

Yeah, Like any good politician, he puts his sponsors (big business) interests before the country's health.

It will be interesting to see if any of the corporate leaders come out and admit their pressure to maintain BAU will ultimately cost many thousands of extra lives.

Peregrinus · 23-03-2020 2:00am

Roanmore wrote: »

From the Sunday Times (Tim Shipman) this morning

At a private engagement at the end of February, Cummings outlined the government’s strategy. Those present say it was “herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad”.’

If true surely Cummings can't survive that?

It will simply be denied that he said it.

VinLieger · 23-03-2020 12:05pm

Roanmore wrote: »

From the Sunday Times (Tim Shipman) this morning

At a private engagement at the end of February, Cummings outlined the government’s strategy. Those present say it was “herd immunity, protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad”.’

If true surely Cummings can't survive that?

Are we surprised? He hired an advisor who was vocally pro lower/upper class eugenics

23-03-2020 10:09pm

Well, from being slow off the blocks in fighting the COVID-19 pandemic now they have one of the more severe lockdown regimes in Europe.
Final warning before enforcing a full curfew.

Banner2theend · 23-03-2020 10:31pm

A full curfew is the ultimate nuclear option for any government to implement. In these extraordinary times of global crisis, this decision by BJ was the inevitable outcome considering the alarming track of where this virus could head on the Uk, possibly worse than Italy.

If our own govt here doesn't follow suit than that could have major security implications for this island if our rules are more lax than in the North.

I applaud Boris on this decisive move but like everyone these measures could backfire, that's on the basis of them not been draconian enough or weren't implemented at least 2 weeks earlier. I'm no Boris fan but that was possibly his best 5 minutes as British PM.

CelticRambler · 23-03-2020 10:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, from being slow off the blocks in fighting the COVID-19 pandemic now they have one of the more severe lockdown regimes in Europe.
Final warning before enforcing a full curfew.

Which Europe are you looking at? These measures are still barely a match for those in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Greece ...

So it's still just "slow off the blocks" for Johnson.

This message comes to you from the curfewed town of Mulhouse, France.

23-03-2020 10:47pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Which Europe are you looking at? These measures are still barely a match for those in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Greece ...

So it's still just "slow off the blocks" for Johnson.

This message comes to you from the curfewed town of Mulhouse, France.

It's a fast changing situation, many areas are still quite lax at the moment.
It's like watching dominoes falling.

beggars_bush · 23-03-2020 10:51pm

I hope the UK authorities will be monitoring NI cars heading south?

timsey tiger · 23-03-2020 10:55pm

Finally taking it seriously, this is a relief. When will we get this here and the closing of ports/border to movement of people?

Peregrinus · 24-03-2020 1:10am

beggars_bush wrote: »

I hope the UK authorities will be monitoring NI cars heading south?

Why would they do that? They have enough to do dealing with CV19.

Peregrinus · 24-03-2020 1:12am

timsey tiger wrote: »

Finally taking it seriously, this is a relief. When will we get this here and the closing of ports/border to movement of people?

We are well past the point where closing of ports and borders would make any difference. The infection is well-established in Ireland, and it's internal measures that will affect how matters progress from here.

Closing of ports and borders might have symbolic significance, in bringhing home to those who still don't get it how serious the situation is. But as an infection control measure, its impact would be negligible.

timsey tiger · 24-03-2020 1:21am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why would they do that? They have enough to do dealing with CV19.

I think the post was meant in jest.

timsey tiger · 24-03-2020 1:28am

Peregrinus wrote: »

We are well past the point where closing of ports and borders would make any difference. The infection is well-established in Ireland, and it's internal measures that will affect how matters progress from here.

Closing of ports and borders might have symbolic significance, in bringhing home to those who still don't get it how serious the situation is. But as an infection control measure, its impact would be negligible.

If we don't close our ports and borders we will continue to get reinfected, extending the duration of the lockdown.

mickdw · 24-03-2020 1:40am

timsey tiger wrote: »

If we don't close our ports and borders we will continue to get reinfected, extending the duration of the lockdown.

I saw someone make a point that any number entering the country at this stage by plane etc is tiny compared to the community transmitted cased and claimed that it was meaningless as a result.
Does this not miss the point that you could be starting multiple new clusters of infection with further exponential growth?

Peregrinus · 24-03-2020 1:46am

timsey tiger wrote: »

If we don't close our ports and borders we will continue to get reinfected, extending the duration of the lockdown.

We will continue to get infected anyway. There's nothing magic about people who cross borders.

International travel has already been hugely reduced, by a combination of people following advice not to travel and a substantial reduction in services. It cannot be completely eliminated, because there are categories of people who simply have to cross borders - transport workers facilitating critical goods and supplies, frontier workers, people who need to travel to provide care to family, etc. The difference between the degree of restriction we already have and the higher degree of restriction we could achieve if we "closed the borders" is pretty modest, and certainly not significant from an epidemiological point of view.

As already stated, it might have symbolic signficance in bringing home the seriousness of the situation to the slow-witted. It might also be useful in encouraging neighbouring countries to up their antiviral game a little, but that is a bit more iffy.

So I'm not saying "never do it". I'm saying "don't imagine you will derive any meaningful epidemiological benefit directly by doing it; you won't. If you do do it, at least to it for a good and realistic reason."

timsey tiger · 24-03-2020 2:46am

I don't imagine it will meaningfully shift the numbers at the peak , but look at China now, their new cases are all imported meaning that they can't relax or they will be back to square one

Chips Lovell · 24-03-2020 10:41am

Mod Note

Please read the charter. Dumps of links to videos and Twitter not permitted. This is a discussion forum, not a news feed.

Thanks

Leroy42 · 24-03-2020 11:39am

timsey tiger wrote: »

I don't imagine it will meaningfully shift the numbers at the peak , but look at China now, their new cases are all imported meaning that they can't relax or they will be back to square one

The China numbers don't make any sense. The outbreak was under way for a few weeks before they shut down Wuhan, during which time they ignored and actively tried to hide the information. During that time how many people contacted the virus and then travelled?

And now they have it all done, yet Italy are struggling?

Listen to the messaging coming out, saying that the only new cases are people returning, setting up the blame for the second wave to internationals.

24-03-2020 1:17pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-52017910

London Underground commuters have been warned that if they do not stop packing into trains more people will die from coronavirus.
Mayor of London Sadiq Khan issued the alert after photos showed crowds in Tube carriages for a second morning running.
Mr Khan insisted that the network was running for essential workers only.
A transport union called for police officers to be deployed at major stations to stop overcrowding.
More than 130 people have died in London from Covid-19 - a third of the whole of the UK.

Short of closing down public transport in London, it is hard to see how they can maintain social distancing.

Public transport is currently meant to be for "critical workers" only but it doesn't seem to be working.

Union reps on the tube have been left apoplectic for a second day because lines have been very very busy, particularly at the start of the service.

Far too many businesses believe that their staff are "critical workers", they really need to reevaluate whether their staff work in places that could affect the health of the general public, rather than the health of the bottom line!

Leroy42 · 24-03-2020 1:19pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Short of closing down public transport in London, it is hard to see how they can maintain social distancing.

The problem is that they reduced the service. Either have it full, to allow space, or cancel it.

This is the worst of both worlds.

Peregrinus · 25-03-2020 3:02am

I see that the UK Health Secretary has called for more trains to be laid on, to reduce overcrowding.

Perhaps the UK Transport Secretary should now call for more hospitals to be laid on, to reduce overcrowding?

Rosahane · 25-03-2020 7:29am

Leroy42 wrote: »

The China numbers don't make any sense. The outbreak was under way for a few weeks before they shut down Wuhan, during which time they ignored and actively tried to hide the information. During that time how many people contacted the virus and then travelled?

And now they have it all done, yet Italy are struggling?

Listen to the messaging coming out, saying that the only new cases are people returning, setting up the blame for the second wave to internationals.

Maybe all is not as it seems, official reports say that the number of cellphone users in China has dropped by 21 Million. While it’s probable that some of this decline is down to business accounts shut down by the virus it seems a huge figure.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-closing-of-21-million-cell-phone-accounts-in-china-may-suggest-a-high-ccp-virus-death-toll_3281291.html

beggars_bush · 25-03-2020 1:25pm

Rosahane wrote: »

Maybe all is not as it seems, official reports say that the number of cellphone users in China has dropped by 21 Million. While it’s probable that some of this decline is down to business accounts shut down by the virus it seems a huge figure.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-closing-of-21-million-cell-phone-accounts-in-china-may-suggest-a-high-ccp-virus-death-toll_3281291.html

Business cell phones most likely

sid waddell · 25-03-2020 2:38pm

Rosahane wrote: »

Maybe all is not as it seems, official reports say that the number of cellphone users in China has dropped by 21 Million. While it’s probable that some of this decline is down to business accounts shut down by the virus it seems a huge figure.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-closing-of-21-million-cell-phone-accounts-in-china-may-suggest-a-high-ccp-virus-death-toll_3281291.html

The Epoch Times is a disinformation site and I would put zero store in anything reported by it.

PommieBast · 25-03-2020 2:45pm

Rosahane wrote: »

Maybe all is not as it seems, official reports say that the number of cellphone users in China has dropped by 21 Million. While it’s probable that some of this decline is down to business accounts shut down by the virus it seems a huge figure.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-closing-of-21-million-cell-phone-accounts-in-china-may-suggest-a-high-ccp-virus-death-toll_3281291.html

Don't think 21 million is that much on the scale of things in PRC.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-03-2020 10:04pm

In addition to business users there's also this
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-23/china-s-mobile-carriers-lose-15-million-users-as-virus-bites

Part of the drop could be caused by migrant workers -- who often have one subscription for where they work and another for their home region

And there's probably a lot of non-human subscriptions cancelled too for remote diagnostics kit, car hotspots and trackers, and the whole "internet of things" like vending machines texting to be restocked. And animal trackers.

Tourist subs are likely to be down a tad too.

timsey tiger · 30-03-2020 10:42am

Peregrinus wrote: »

We are well past the point where closing of ports and borders would make any difference. The infection is well-established in Ireland, and it's internal measures that will affect how matters progress from here.

Closing of ports and borders might have symbolic significance, in bringhing home to those who still don't get it how serious the situation is. But as an infection control measure, its impact would be negligible.

Medical experts in Irish times now calling for government to seriously consider closing borders. Be very interesting to see how this would work up North, could we get them to join on an all island basis like for foot and mouth. On will nordies be like we could act with you for animals but people meh not so much.

BonnieSituation · 30-03-2020 11:07am

timsey tiger wrote: »

Medical experts in Irish times now calling for government to seriously consider closing borders. Be very interesting to see how this would work up North, could we get them to join on an all island basis like for foot and mouth. On will nordies unionists be like we could act with you for animals but people meh not so much.

Be careful with your use of words. They're important.

timsey tiger · 30-03-2020 11:21am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Be careful with your use of words. They're important.

Governments share collective responsibility.

BonnieSituation · 30-03-2020 11:40am

timsey tiger wrote: »

Governments share collective responsibility.

Yes?

"Nordies" aren't a collective as you mention above.

timsey tiger · 30-03-2020 11:49am

Well, I'm hardly referring to the people of Northern Ireland. In the context I'm clearly referring to the Executive, and as you've agreed governments have collective responsibility, so I'm happy with my usage.

grayzer75 · 30-03-2020 11:58am

timsey tiger wrote: »

Well, I'm hardly referring to the people of Northern Ireland. In the context I'm clearly referring to the Executive, and as you've agreed governments have collective responsibility, so I'm happy with my usage.

You'd be better referring to us as the people of Ireland because we're all in this together. There's no need to close the border as there is only those of us who have to cross it as frontline workers doing so - I crossed at 7am this morning and there was only a handful of trucks / cars on the road where there would usually be hundreds.

BonnieSituation · 30-03-2020 12:05pm

timsey tiger wrote: »

Well, I'm hardly referring to the people of Northern Ireland. In the context I'm clearly referring to the Executive, and as you've agreed governments have collective responsibility, so I'm happy with my usage.

Agreed? Hardly?

It's exactly who I thought you may be referring to. AS I said, words are important. Perhap using "Executive" would have been a better idea?

Even referring to the Executive and their apparent collective responsibility seems to give Unionists a pass.

It's amazing how they are all in this together all of a sudden and yet SF were lambasted a couple of weeks back for being "petulant" for disagreeing with the UKG and Unionist stance.

timsey tiger · 30-03-2020 2:55pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Agreed? Hardly?

It's exactly who I thought you may be referring to. AS I said, words are important. Perhap using "Executive" would have been a better idea?

Even referring to the Executive and their apparent collective responsibility seems to give Unionists a pass.

It's amazing how they are all in this together all of a sudden and yet SF were lambasted a couple of weeks back for being "petulant" for disagreeing with the UKG and Unionist stance.

I wish I had now, I was not expecting my point about securing the border being derailed by this sort of pot kettle black silliness at a time when, we really are all in this together.

The question I'm interested in is secure the Island or just the state.

timsey tiger · 30-03-2020 2:59pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

You'd be better referring to us as the people of Ireland because we're all in this together. There's no need to close the border as there is only those of us who have to cross it as frontline workers doing so - I crossed at 7am this morning and there was only a handful of trucks / cars on the road where there would usually be hundreds.

Question, how many cases can arise from one single infected person?

Answer - all of them!

BonnieSituation · 30-03-2020 3:28pm

timsey tiger wrote: »

I wish I had now, I was not expecting my point about securing the border being derailed by this sort of pot kettle black silliness at a time when, we really are all in this together.

The question I'm interested in is secure the Island or just the state.

The island would be more secure but for unionism. That's why I was being a stickler.

But yes, secure the island, not just the State.

Sam Russell · 30-03-2020 3:54pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The island would be more secure but for unionism. That's why I was being a stickler.

But yes, secure the island, not just the State.

Well, some of the PPE stuff that arrived yesterday is destined for the north.

That should be a good news item and a sign of solidarity.

BonnieSituation · 31-03-2020 12:45am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, some of the PPE stuff that arrived yesterday is destined for the north.

That should be a good news item and a sign of solidarity.

The South is rarely short of solidarity with the north. It's almost par for the course.

Unfortunately, belligerent unionism isn't capable of seeing such things as a sensible approach and always see it as an attack.

timsey tiger · 31-03-2020 2:23am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The South is rarely short of solidarity with the north. It's almost par for the course.

Unfortunately, belligerent unionism isn't capable of seeing such things as a sensible approach and always see it as an attack.

Give it a rest please, maybe they think we are all like you. You've won I won't be posting here anymore you ruined it for me.

Capt'n Midnight · 01-04-2020 7:55pm

Just in case anyone's worried about the Russians eavesdropping, Boris handed everything over to Zoom. It's amateur hour.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/01/zoom_spotlight/

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson sparked security concerns on Tuesday when he shared a screenshot of “the first ever digital Cabinet” on his Twitter feed. It revealed the country’s most senior officials and ministers were using bog-standard Zoom to discuss critical issues facing Blighty.

The tweet also disclosed the Zoom meeting ID was 539-544-323, and fortunately that appears to have been password protected. That's a good thing because miscreants hijacking unprotected Zoom calls is a thing.

Crucially, the use of the Zoom software is likely to have infuriated the security services, while also raising questions about whether the UK government has its own secure video-conferencing facilities. We asked GCHQ, and it told us that it was a Number 10 issue. Downing Street declined to comment.

CelticRambler · 01-04-2020 8:28pm

Weren't we supposed to have had a report on Russian interference in British politics published by now? Did I miss it in all the Covid noise or is someone in Downing Street still sitting on it? Perhaps the dog ate it ...

serfboard · 02-04-2020 12:39pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Weren't we supposed to have had a report on Russian interference in British politics published by now? ... Perhaps the dog ate it ...

That dog has been very busy these days!

General British politics discussion thread

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