Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

RedRaider0 · 16-09-2020 4:56pm

awec wrote: »

I believe Michaels have a Directory of Rugby.

what was Dan Sopers role at RBAI?

what is Ian McKinleys role at Ballymena Academy?

sydthebeat · 16-09-2020 4:57pm

awec wrote: »

I believe Michaels have a Directory of Rugby.

afaik he was a teacher there for about 8 years while he held that role, and its only the last couple of years thats hes not teaching. not sure its full time either.

Paul Smeenus · 16-09-2020 5:08pm

RedRaider0 wrote: »

what was Dan Sopers role at RBAI?

what is Ian McKinleys role at Ballymena Academy?

Soper had the same role. Presumably, like the current Director of Rugby, he actually coached other sports as well (the current Director also coaches cricket teams.)

And Ian McKinley's role is at the Academy is an unspecified coaching role, which he will fit in around his actual job, as backs coach of Rainey Old Boys RFC.

Paul Smeenus · 16-09-2020 5:16pm

In fact, Soper was the Head Coach of Banbridge at the same time as being the Director of Rugby at Inst.

Andy Skehan used to double up at UCD and St Michael's, but now just St Michael's, I think, since he stopped teaching full time as well?

mfceiling · 16-09-2020 6:29pm

I did a few days work in Michael's back in 2015 or 2016.

I'm an early riser and starter so I was there at 6.30 to have my coffee and listen to the radio. There were kids already in the gym working out at that time!!

These schools are feeding one or two players every year into the Leinster academy and these lads are well able to hit the ground running.

Ulster are doing their best through the schools etc but they will always be playing catch up to Leinster.

Do Munster and Connacht have a big school selection of lads coming through? You'd have to wonder where their next bunch of big names are coming from if not the schools.

The Lost Sheep · 16-09-2020 6:42pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

In fact, Soper was the Head Coach of Banbridge at the same time as being the Director of Rugby at Inst.

Andy Skehan used to double up at UCD and St Michael's, but now just St Michael's, I think, since he stopped teaching full time as well?

involved Leinster age grade as well which is primarily summer.

mfceiling wrote: »

I did a few days work in Michael's back in 2015 or 2016.

I'm an early riser and starter so I was there at 6.30 to have my coffee and listen to the radio. There were kids already in the gym working out at that time!!

These schools are feeding one or two players every year into the Leinster academy and these lads are well able to hit the ground running.

Ulster are doing their best through the schools etc but they will always be playing catch up to Leinster.

Do Munster and Connacht have a big school selection of lads coming through? You'd have to wonder where their next bunch of big names are coming from if not the schools.

Connacht all play schools and clubs there isnt any difference. Kids play mid week for school then weekend for their club.
Munster are trying to close gap with changes to schools competitions, club competitions but its taking time....

Guinness RFC · 16-09-2020 7:51pm

awec wrote: »

I believe Michaels have a Directory of Rugby.

I coached Andy Skehan when he was in first year. He was a C team player. The question is were the people in the over funded rugby programme there actually any good as players? A coach has to set an example to be good. He has to have done himself what he asks of his players IMO. To succeed at the very top and consistently win cups. Or at the very least respect him enough to break their necks for him (I know people will point out this is incorrect but it applies here)

They have got a good professional set up but perhaps are lacking in the last few percentile when it comes to producing the best players. What I mean by that is for all the players contracted to Leinster from Michaels - how many are absolute certainties on the first team team sheet? IMO only one - James Ryan. Any school can churn out dozens of average players but the school has a way to go yet to produce a steady stream of top class players like Clongowes or Rock.

Paul Smeenus · 17-09-2020 1:20am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqt34fr1VBA

Whatever else, Madigan is disarmingly, likably honest.

Think we'll get tanked on Sunday. Amongst other things, Madigan is pretty unguarded about the difficulty, with this massively disrupted season, of getting in the right space mentally to compete in this other competition when your biggest game of the season was the previous one. We're not at the level we could hope to win the European cup unless there were astonishing results or circumstances. But the Pro14, IF WE'D CHOSEN TO KICK SOME POINTS, IAIN, was more within our reach. So this game, honestly, may be hard to get in gear for.

Still, it's the game of the weekend.

Digifriendly · 17-09-2020 6:46am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqt34fr1VBA

Whatever else, Madigan is disarmingly, likably honest.

Think we'll get tanked on Sunday. Amongst other things, Madigan is pretty unguarded about the difficulty, with this massively disrupted season, of getting in the right space mentally to compete in this other competition when your biggest game of the season was the previous one. We're not at the level we could hope to win the European cup unless there were astonishing results or circumstances. But the Pro14, IF WE'D CHOSEN TO KICK SOME POINTS, IAIN, was more within our reach. So this game, honestly, may be hard to get in gear for.

Still, it's the game of the weekend.

Unsure how its the game of the weekend when you think Ulster will get tanked. Even without Owen Farrell I think Leinster vs Saracens will be a tasty affair.

Paul Smeenus · 17-09-2020 8:43am

Digifriendly wrote: »

Unsure how its the game of the weekend when you think Ulster will get tanked. Even without Owen Farrell I think Leinster vs Saracens will be a tasty affair.

Unsure how you've lasted this long on boards without the capacity to pick up on others' tongue in cheek humour...

[I was tempted to double down and say no, "Leinster vs Saracens will be sh!te and meaningless without Farrell, roll on Sunday", but I couldn't deal with the seven-page fallout]

bilston · 17-09-2020 8:54am

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqt34fr1VBA

Whatever else, Madigan is disarmingly, likably honest.

Think we'll get tanked on Sunday. Amongst other things, Madigan is pretty unguarded about the difficulty, with this massively disrupted season, of getting in the right space mentally to compete in this other competition when your biggest game of the season was the previous one. We're not at the level we could hope to win the European cup unless there were astonishing results or circumstances. But the Pro14, IF WE'D CHOSEN TO KICK SOME POINTS, IAIN, was more within our reach. So this game, honestly, may be hard to get in gear for.

Still, it's the game of the weekend.

Aye, can't see us winning, but Id be surprised if Toulouse has as tight a defence as Leinster did, so we might get over the white wash a bit more. Depending on the weather it could be a good day running rugby..

I think Toulouse will win with a bit to spare...I'll randomly go with 41-23 or something like that. Ulster might even give us hope for about 20 minutes.

jacothelad · 17-09-2020 9:04am

bilston wrote: »

It's the same in Leinster though...

Blackrock, St Michaels, Belvedere College, Clongowes etc etc

Up here we have Inst, Methody, Campbell, Ballymena Academy and Wallace etc.

Which are no longer allowed to be 'private' schools.

Here is an interesting tale about the brain drain from NI schools. Shortly after I arrived here in Scotland I needed a trip to A&E. The consultant I met was from Belfast and had previously worked in the Royal Victoria. Now this hospital was in a small provincial town in rural Northern Scotland. I didn't think much more about it until I had to see another doctor. This one had been to Methodist College, my old school. I then needed major surgery and while I was in the high dependency unit recovering a young doctor came to check on me. She was from County Tyrone and incredibly her mother and I had shared an office and lecturing duties. I then needed surgery on my left arm which involved avoiding a major nerve supply to my hand etc. The first doc who looked at me had been to Inst. The plastic surgery unit where I had the op had a very talented and widely respected consultant....from Ballymena. 2 other doctors I met in the unit were also from NI as were several nurses.
My next door neighbour is a very, very senior figure in the offshore engineering industry. He studied engineering at Queens. Another guy in my little village also is a multi- qualified engineer who travels the world fixing big things. He also went to Queens. The Chief medical officer for Scotland is was another Methody ex pupil and she had to resign. Her replacement ...yep...another Queens graduate. Now bear in mind the remote location in which I now reside and extrapolate this into other professions and larger areas in the UK and the sheer scale of the intellectual pillaging of NI talent is on a huge scale. If so many people see a future away from NI and make these decisions about careers and life choices early it is also bound to have a major effect on sporting opportunities.

bilston · 17-09-2020 9:28am

jacothelad wrote: »

Which are no longer allowed to be 'private' schools.

True, but I'm not talking about schools being private or public, my point was more that they are big rugby schools.

Digifriendly · 17-09-2020 9:56am

bilston wrote: »

Aye, can't see us winning, but Id be surprised if Toulouse has as tight a defence as Leinster did, so we might get over the white wash a bit more. Depending on the weather it could be a good day running rugby..

I think Toulouse will win with a bit to spare...I'll randomly go with 41-23 or something like that. Ulster might even give us hope for about 20 minutes.

Ulster to pick up a bp then?
(That's my tongue in cheek humour)

Paul Smeenus · 17-09-2020 11:40am

Digifriendly wrote: »

Ulster to pick up a bp then?
(That's my tongue in cheek humour)

Only if Mike McComish comes out of retirement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ion-Oa27hFM

awec · 17-09-2020 12:04pm

I had forgotten about Mike McComish.

A penalty machine.

Paul Smeenus · 17-09-2020 12:16pm

awec wrote: »

I had forgotten about Mike McComish.

A penalty machine.

The Terror of Toulon.

bilston · 17-09-2020 1:49pm

awec wrote: »

I had forgotten about Mike McComish.

A penalty machine.

I wonder how many Ulster players we have all forgotten about over the years. Probably quite a few

The Matt Williams reign being a particular nadir...

Clinton Schifcofske, Cillian Willis, Paul Emerick..

We're doing OK at the minute...believe me..

Utah_Saint · 17-09-2020 2:01pm

bilston wrote: »

I think Toulouse will win with a bit to spare...I'll randomly go with 41-23 or something like that. Ulster might even give us hope for about 20 minutes.

Its the hope that kills.....

Paul Smeenus · 17-09-2020 4:28pm

From The Other Forum - Conor McMenamin, Lewis Finlay, Azur Alison, David McCann, Tom Stewart, Hayden Hyde and Ethan McIlroy all training with the senior side.

mfceiling · 17-09-2020 6:01pm

bilston wrote: »

I wonder how many Ulster players we have all forgotten about over the years. Probably quite a few

The Matt Williams reign being a particular nadir...

Clinton Schifcofske, Cillian Willis, Paul Emerick..

We're doing OK at the minute...believe me..

It always amazed me how lightweight our forward pack seemed to be.
Guys like Diack, McComish, Wilson etc couldn't make a yard to save their lives. They literally were driven back in every single tackle, be that from a forward or back.

Who was the last nasty bàstard that ever lined out for Ulster? Neil Best?

When you think of the past...Paddy Johns, Jeremy Davidson, Willie Anderson, Ferris...all big men and well able to get stuck in. You'd hope there's one or two out there somewhere for the future.

Digifriendly · 17-09-2020 8:23pm

Had to google Paul Emerick. Couldn't honestly remember him. Short stint with Ulster.

bilston · 17-09-2020 8:42pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

From The Other Forum - Conor McMenamin, Lewis Finlay, Azur Alison, David McCann, Tom Stewart, Hayden Hyde and Ethan McIlroy all training with the senior side.

Presumably with the Pro 14/12 whatever it's called in mind and not Toulouse.

Good mix of backs and forwards there. McMenamin is an interesting name...second row?

Locke_Lamora · 17-09-2020 9:49pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

From The Other Forum - Conor McMenamin, Lewis Finlay, Azur Alison, David McCann, Tom Stewart, Hayden Hyde and Ethan McIlroy all training with the senior side.

Forgot about Hyde, didn't really impress me when I saw him for the A's but I keep reminding myself that he was only a couple months out of school. Was very handy for the u20's though against his peers, looked good in contact and knew when to give the offload and when to recycle. Played 12 for the u20's but mostly 13 for us I think, it'll be interesting to see where we prefer him.

Thought it might be a year too soon for Stewart, but the coaches disagree. If he gets game time, I honestly believe he could leapfrog McBurney without too much trouble.

Wonder if there's any particular reason Finlay is there and Doak isn't. Might just be an incomplete list.

Really surprised at McMenamin being there tbh, Irish u20 coaches didn't seem to rate him. Played 2nd row/backrow through age-grade but not sure he has the size for 2nd row professionally. Haven't seen him play in probably two years though, awful lot can change in that time.

The Lost Sheep · 17-09-2020 9:56pm

bilston wrote: »

Presumably with the Pro 14/12 whatever it's called in mind and not Toulouse.

Good mix of backs and forwards there. McMenamin is an interesting name...second row?

Yeah second row from Donegal. There's a programme on tg4 on now finishing at 10 part of a series from few years back that he's involved in.

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

Forgot about Hyde, didn't really impress me when I saw him for the A's but I keep reminding myself that he was only a couple months out of school. Was very handy for the u20's though against his peers, looked good in contact and knew when to give the offload and when to recycle. Played 12 for the u20's but mostly 13 for us I think, it'll be interesting to see where we prefer him.

Thought it might be a year too soon for Stewart, but the coaches disagree. If he gets game time, I honestly believe he could leapfrog McBurney without too much trouble.

Wonder if there's any particular reason Finlay is there and Doak isn't. Might just be an incomplete list.

Really surprised at McMenamin being there tbh, Irish u20 coaches didn't seem to rate him. Played 2nd row/backrow through age-grade but not sure he has the size for 2nd row professionally. Haven't seen him play in probably two years though, awful lot can change in that time.

Wouldnt think too much about why Doak isnt involved there yet

Hands Like Flippers · 18-09-2020 12:53am

RedRaider0 wrote: »

Ulster u18 schools side are generally very competitive with leinster u18 schools.

I agree with this. I have watched this game for last 3 years. Three stupid mistakes cost three tries last year (2002). Crothers wasn't allowed to play for u18 and Posletwaite (should have got an academy contract) was away at sevens last year and missed this game. Not to mention over half the starting team last year was a year young inc both second rows and the half backs. Was a lot closer than scoreboard suggested. Year before (2001) was v close and year before (2000) Ulster won.

My own view is there should be more players in the academy and they should play more games.

Think someone above is underestimating Carson btw. Mccormick good enough as well.

Paul Smeenus · 18-09-2020 8:44am

Digifriendly wrote: »

Had to google Paul Emerick. Couldn't honestly remember him. Short stint with Ulster.

Put in a pretty dirty hit in an interpro - McLaughlin never picked him again.

RedRaider0 · 18-09-2020 9:48am

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

I agree with this. I have watched this game for last 3 years. Three stupid mistakes cost three tries last year (2002). Crothers wasn't allowed to play for u18 and Posletwaite (should have got an academy contract) was away at sevens last year and missed this game. Not to mention over half the starting team last year was a year young inc both second rows and the half backs. Was a lot closer than scoreboard suggested. Year before (2001) was v close and year before (2000) Ulster won.

My own view is there should be more players in the academy and they should play more games.

Think someone above is underestimating Carson btw. Mccormick good enough as well.

Exactly the gap isn't huge at u18 level, it's translating that upwards.

any indications on academy additions?

Hands Like Flippers · 18-09-2020 12:33pm

RedRaider0 wrote: »

Exactly the gap isn't huge at u18 level, it's translating that upwards.

any indications on academy additions?

Postlewaite is a possibility from what I hear.

RedRaider0 · 18-09-2020 12:58pm

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Postlewaite is a possibility from what I hear.

i thought he might.. along with McMenamin given the latter is training with the seniors.

Paul Smeenus · 19-09-2020 1:21pm

I see Trevor Brennan's having a good aul' moan in the Independent.

'I was wrong to hit him... but did I deserve a lifetime ban?'

Yes. Yes you did, Trev. Anything else you need clarification on, just let us know.

awec · 20-09-2020 2:09pm

Going to say it now, the Leinster rejects have not improved Ulster in any meaningful way.

McGrath and Murphy two of our worst players today. This signing policy has been a massive failure.

Carter is absolute muck. Faddes is a journeyman.

This squad will win nothing.

Squidgy Black · 20-09-2020 2:17pm

awec wrote: »

Going to say it now, the Leinster rejects have not improved Ulster in any meaningful way.

McGrath and Murphy two of our worst players today. This signing policy has been a massive failure.

Carter is absolute muck. Faddes is a journeyman.

This squad will win nothing.

In desperate need of a decent 10. Lowry is class with ball in hand but as soon as he gets into contact it's completely negated. Had hopes for Burns when he signed but I think it's clear now he's not the answer.

irishbucsfan · 20-09-2020 2:19pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I see Trevor Brennan's having a good aul' moan in the Independent.

'I was wrong to hit him... but did I deserve a lifetime ban?'

Yes. Yes you did, Trev. Anything else you need clarification on, just let us know.

A lifetime ban is pointless to me but he really doesn't deserve sympathy

UAEguy2020 · 20-09-2020 2:22pm

awec wrote: »

Going to say it now, the Leinster rejects have not improved Ulster in any meaningful way.

McGrath and Murphy two of our worst players today. This signing policy has been a massive failure.

Carter is absolute muck. Faddes is a journeyman.

This squad will win nothing.

Cooney is the only player to come in and improve Ulster. Would much rather Ulster brought in an academy player who may be less experienced but give it their all than do what Ulster have done with the likes of Murphy and McGrath. The players Ulster bring in are just safe picks, they would screw up significantly but will never give you that edge you need in games like this where Ulster need to do everything right, butchering that 4-2 in the first half summed it up.

bilston · 20-09-2020 2:23pm

awec wrote: »

Going to say it now, the Leinster rejects have not improved Ulster in any meaningful way.

McGrath and Murphy two of our worst players today. This signing policy has been a massive failure.

Carter is absolute muck. Faddes is a journeyman.

This squad will win nothing.

Short memory awec if you think Ulster haven't improved. Two years ago we were called a "basket case" for a reason.

But I agree we will win nothing as those guys won't take us to the next level.

But I'd rather be where we are now than where we where 2 or 3 years ago.

awec · 20-09-2020 2:25pm

bilston wrote: »

Short memory awec if you think Ulster haven't improved. Two years ago we were called a "basket case" for a reason.

But I agree we will win nothing as those guys won't take us to the next level.

But I'd rather be where we are now than where we where 2 or 3 years ago.

I said meaningful improvement bilston.

We’re not a joke, but we’re still miles off the pace.

launish116 · 20-09-2020 2:29pm

This keep in mind how Murphy has helped over the past season. Not to mention that he has played almost every minute in a back row over 4 knockout games, including a HIA?

McGrath on the other hand is up and down.

I’m all for promoting from academy, but if there’s no one there, there’s no ones there. There is no point putting some 20 year old in to sink and get injured.

Perspective is needed with our budget and resources l, Ulster are where they are.

bilston · 20-09-2020 2:42pm

awec wrote: »

I said meaningful improvement bilston.

We’re not a joke, but we’re still miles off the pace.

I'd say there has been meaningful improvement.

Whether thats down to the former Leinster players I'm not sure.

McFarland has played a role, the emergence of the likes of O'Toole, O'Sullivan, Hume, Lowry, Lyttle and Balacoune has played a part.

Cooney has been good, Murphy has generally been good, I'd say that when fit Marty Moore is a big asset.

Not sure about Jack McGrath and its too early to judge Madigan.

Faddes and Carter have been underwhelming signings, although I'd give Carter a run of games before judging too harshly.

We will see how next season goes, hopefully we will see two or three Academy players make the step up, at least we don't have long to wait.

UAEguy2020 · 20-09-2020 2:45pm

launish116 wrote: »

This keep in mind how Murphy has helped over the past season. Not to mention that he has played almost every minute in a back row over 4 knockout games, including a HIA?

McGrath on the other hand is up and down.

I’m all for promoting from academy, but if there’s no one there, there’s no ones there. There is no point putting some 20 year old in to sink and get injured.

Perspective is needed with our budget and resources l, Ulster are where they are.

There are players there though, that’s another big difference between Ulster/Munster and Leinster. Flannery,Healy,Ahern,Hodnett etc for Munster I’m not as familiar with Ulster but definitely someone like McCann,Allison,Rea etc would be looked at but instead of that the two rather be safe and settle on guys like Haley,Holland,Hanrahan,Cloete/O’Donnell and just happily take their inevitable beat down in a SF against a team much happier at using the resources at their disposal. You could see today Ulster had given up before a ball was kicked, they knew they did have a chance and played accordingly. It may be good enough to get you to the QF and in Munsters case possibly a semi but when you play a Racing, Saracens etc you’re safety first selections will be found out by sides willing to take more risks. Nothing will change as long as these teams settle journeymen not good enough or just the same safe selections just because they have done it in the past attitude. You’ll see come the CC in November Munster and Ulster will play the same journeymen, nothing will be learnt and we will be having the same discussion at the same stage next season if not sooner.

Paul Smeenus · 20-09-2020 3:06pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

There are players there though, that’s another big difference between Ulster/Munster and Leinster. Flannery,Healy,Ahern,Hodnett etc for Munster I’m not as familiar with Ulster but definitely someone like McCann,Allison,Rea etc would be looked at but instead of that the two rather be safe and settle on guys like Haley,Holland,Hanrahan,Cloete/O’Donnell and just happily take their inevitable beat down in a SF against a team much happier at using the resources at their disposal. You could see today Ulster had given up before a ball was kicked, they knew they did have a chance and played accordingly. It may be good enough to get you to the QF and in Munsters case possibly a semi but when you play a Racing, Saracens etc you’re safety first selections will be found out by sides willing to take more risks. Nothing will change as long as these teams settle journeymen not good enough or just the same safe selections just because they have done it in the past attitude. You’ll see come the CC in November Munster and Ulster will play the same journeymen, nothing will be learnt and we will be having the same discussion at the same stage next season if not sooner.

Journeymen like Tom O'Toole? James Hume? Michael Lowry? Robert Baloucoune? Eric O'Sullivan?

This narrative about Ulster and journeymen is, frankly, out of date. Just part of the wider histrionics.

We've been on the wrong side of an ugly, ugly scoreline today, and that's colouring everything. We have just played three knock-out games. If you think that's the time to drop David McCann in, well, then good luck to you.

We have demonstrably come on. I said it earlier n the thread - two seasons ago we were scrapping with Ospreys to earn a place in Europe, having come seventh in the league. In these last two season, between both competitions, we have had five knock-out games.

What you don't get to do, is snap your fingers and the new players are there. All this p!ssing and moaning about Jack McGrath not having improved Ulster - is he the player he once was, on the Lions? No. Is he better than Kyle McCall? Uhhhh... yes. Was I happier to see him pack down against a Toulouse front row than Andy Warwick? Yes. Ask Leinster about how easy it is to win when your front row is being humiliated.

We looked gassed and lacking self-belief today. It was heart-breaking. But there seems to be a school of though that if you're not at the top table in two years under a new coach, nothing has improved. Or that we haven't shaken off past problems with previous coaches' approach to selection. Both are simply wide of the mark. There's a new season starting - let's see what happens with selection.

awec · 20-09-2020 3:10pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Journeymen like Tom O'Toole? James Hume? Michael Lowry? Robert Baloucoune? Eric O'Sullivan?

This narrative about Ulster and journeymen is, frankly, out of date. Just part of the wider histrionics.

We've been on the wrong side of an ugly, ugly scoreline today, and that's colouring everything. We have just played three knock-out games. If you think that's the time to drop David McCann in, well, then good luck to you.

We have demonstrably come on. I said it earlier n the thread - two seasons ago we were scrapping with Ospreys to earn a place in Europe, having come seventh in the league. In these last two season, between both competitions, we have had five knock-out games.

What you don't get to do, is snap your fingers and the new players are there. All this p!ssing and moaning about Jack McGrath not having improved Ulster - is he the player he once was, on the Lions? No. Is he better than Kyle McCall? Uhhhh... yes. Was I happier to see him pack down against a Toulouse front row than Andy Warwick? Yes. Ask Leinster about how easy it is to win when your front row is being humiliated.

We looked gassed and lacking self-belief today. It was heart-breaking. But there seems to be a school of though that if you're not at the top table in two years under a new coach, nothing has improved. Or that we haven't shaken off past problems with previous coaches' approach to selection. Both are simply wide of the mark. There's a new season starting - let's see what happens with selection.

Better than McCall is not much of a barometer.

UAEguy2020 · 20-09-2020 3:21pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Journeymen like Tom O'Toole? James Hume? Michael Lowry? Robert Baloucoune? Eric O'Sullivan?

This narrative about Ulster and journeymen is, frankly, out of date. Just part of the wider histrionics.

We've been on the wrong side of an ugly, ugly scoreline today, and that's colouring everything. We have just played three knock-out games. If you think that's the time to drop David McCann in, well, then good luck to you.

We have demonstrably come on. I said it earlier n the thread - two seasons ago we were scrapping with Ospreys to earn a place in Europe, having come seventh in the league. In these last two season, between both competitions, we have had five knock-out games.

What you don't get to do, is snap your fingers and the new players are there. All this p!ssing and moaning about Jack McGrath not having improved Ulster - is he the player he once was, on the Lions? No. Is he better than Kyle McCall? Uhhhh... yes. Was I happier to see him pack down against a Toulouse front row than Andy Warwick? Yes. Ask Leinster about how easy it is to win when your front row is being humiliated.

We looked gassed and lacking self-belief today. It was heart-breaking. But there seems to be a school of though that if you're not at the top table in two years under a new coach, nothing has improved. Or that we haven't shaken off past problems with previous coaches' approach to selection. Both are simply wide of the mark. There's a new season starting - let's see what happens with selection.

I do think Ulster have been FAR better at bringing through talent but still places like the back row are places that need to be filled. I’m okay with players like Coetzee & Cooney for instances as they make a huge difference but then guys like Faddes,Carter...really? I wouldn’t have dropped McCann in today ofcourse but it’s quite clear that one area of the pitch Ulster need to start integrating talent in is BR but again so many journeymen who just tow the line.

I do think Ulster are going in the right direction and will only get better as they do have a strong academy but do I think Ulster are getting the best out of their resources? No, better than Munster without question because no team is better at wasting their resources than Munster but again instead of journeymen like Carter other young players should be looked at, what did he even do today? Atleast a young player who comes on will fight for the jersey of the team they grew up supporting. Next season Ulster will have a lot of Young players to potentially add to the current batch in McCann, Allison, Rea(hopefully being finally kicks on), Stewart (if he’s ready), Moore,Sexton,McElroy maybe even one of the scrum halves etc Ulster need to focus on players like these than players like Faddes and Carter who if they can’t get the basics right are no better options than at least taking a risk on one of these lads.

launish116 · 20-09-2020 3:37pm

There is talent sitting waiting to be integrated from the academy! We just need this season to integrate by choice not when we’re forced by injury.

Is it time Ulster stop the bravado of hunting silverware and get realistic that it will come with work. Time to take one step back so they can take two steps forwards?

Paul Smeenus · 20-09-2020 3:46pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I do think Ulster have been FAR better at bringing through talent but still places like the back row are places that need to be filled. I’m okay with players like Coetzee & Cooney for instances as they make a huge difference but then guys like Faddes,Carter...really? I wouldn’t have dropped McCann in today ofcourse but it’s quite clear that one area of the pitch Ulster need to start integrating talent in is BR but again so many journeymen who just tow the line.

I do think Ulster are going in the right direction and will only get better as they do have a strong academy but do I think Ulster are getting the best out of their resources? No, better than Munster without question because no team is better at wasting their resources than Munster but again instead of journeymen like Carter other young players should be looked at, what did he even do today? Atleast a young player who comes on will fight for the jersey of the team they grew up supporting. Next season Ulster will have a lot of Young players to potentially add to the current batch in McCann, Allison, Rea(hopefully being finally kicks on), Stewart (if he’s ready), Moore,Sexton,McElroy maybe even one of the scrum halves etc Ulster need to focus on players like these than players like Faddes and Carter who if they can’t get the basics right are no better options than at least taking a risk on one of these lads.

Now this I think is spot on.

Paul Smeenus · 20-09-2020 3:56pm

launish116 wrote: »

There is talent sitting waiting to be integrated from the academy! We just need this season to integrate by choice not when we’re forced by injury.

Is it time Ulster stop the bravado of hunting silverware and get realistic that it will come with work. Time to take one step back so they can take two steps forwards?

No, I don't think so. I understand the logic, but I think one or maybe two youngsters earning a place in tough, high-pressure games is the way to go, and to do that you still need to be in the hunt. No point bring the younger guys through winning against the Dragons and learning from close loses to Munster and Edinburgh, to finally find yourself as the lowest ranked of the teams in your group in Europe. You're simply making life much tougher for yourself.

I wouldn't now panic, if we have to play Hume, Lowry or Lyttle in European matches or a ProWhatever QF or SF. And Baloucoune will rightly be one of the first names on the team sheet. My misgivings about O'Sullivan or O'Toole in the scrums have at least partially been settled - they've held their own against some decent front rows. That's been them playing and earning their places in those games.

What we now need is to see the same things start to happen at second row and back row, and the first appearances of youngsters at scrumhalf and prop.

launish116 · 20-09-2020 4:05pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

No, I don't think so. I understand the logic, but I think one or maybe two youngsters earning a place in tough, high-pressure games is the way to go, and to do that you still need to be in the hunt. No point bring the younger guys through winning against the Dragons and learning from close loses to Munster and Edinburgh, to finally find yourself as the lowest ranked of the teams in your group in Europe. You're simply making life much tougher for yourself.

I wouldn't now panic, if we have to play Hume, Lowry or Lyttle in European matches or a ProWhatever QF or SF. And Baloucoune will rightly be one of the first names on the team sheet. My misgivings about O'Sullivan or O'Toole in the scrums have at least partially been settled - they've held their own against some decent front rows. That's been them playing and earning their places in those games.

What we now need is to see the same things start to happen at second row and back row, and the first appearances of youngsters at scrumhalf and prop.

I think it’s more for how many seasons have we heard? “World domination” “Silverware” etc. Think it’s time to stop banging that drum. Remove some of the pressure.

I Agree with what your saying, tough matches develop better players. What I’m getting at is until we freely integrate and rotate players we’re always gonna flog players. Until we snap out of the full strength team ratio needed to win every game, we’ll never full progress. I agree totally with what your saying about not panicking with Lowry, Hume starting etc now. But we need that for all replacements going forward.

We could now be potentially starting the season without Coetzee and McCloskey (worse case scenario). Here’s the issue who replaces them long term?

Sorry in advance, I understand what I mean just struggle to put it in words!

Paul Smeenus · 20-09-2020 4:21pm

Don't be silly, no need to apologise.

Yeah, the reign of Shane "All Talk" Logan has resulted in a lot of people having a real lack of patience with Ulster. But that was just Logan. I know that's why folk feel jaded, but it has been quite a few year since Logan pontificating that world domination was just round the corner.

But I think that since McF and Petrie took over, it's all been about honest toil and improvement.

In all honesty, if McCloskey was out, I'd have no issue with having Hume at 12 instead of him - that's been his usual position coming up anyway, I think. Or Curtis, who has hints of being a distributing, kicking twelve (if he can stop being injured).

We have no-one near to Coetzee at all, but few teams do!

But I would say that the only team who can freely rotate is Leinster. Literally no other team is going to rest their best players in important matches.

launish116 · 20-09-2020 5:10pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

But I would say that the only team who can freely rotate is Leinster. Literally no other team is going to rest their best players in important matches.

Ulster’s issue is we as a club rely on our strongest team week in week out, especially the last few seasons we’ve had a lot of must win games. (Would love to see stats of wins without Coetzee)

There is no doubt in Leinster's resources etc. But it is there ability to sustainably integrate new/academy players into a team flawlessly without a drop off in form.

On the other hand Ulster seem to drop players in when our strongest players aren’t available or when we send 2nds to an inter pro. Hume is a good example, if Marshall was fit? Would he have had this exposure.

Now my issue isn’t the exposur! it’s the lack of exposure until our hand is forced. Dan in fairness has done very well bringing the likes of Baloucone, O’Toole (both starters now!). We now have a squad with some depth and with Dan’s stamp.

This season must be about sustainability and growing experience. More players integrating leads to more competition, better environment and less floggings.

awec · 20-09-2020 5:44pm

When we’re playing young lads to give them experience it needs to happen with better players around them.

The games when we send glorified A teams are worthless.

Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

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