If the Green Party got into government are they mad

Shefwedfan · 21-06-2019 10:18am

BarryD2 wrote: »

Sorry GreeBo, it is a double standard. Dublin, Cork whatever will be deemed unsuitable locations for industrial scale wind turbines etc because too many residents would object to them. Rural areas will be considered suitable, because there are fewer residents there and their views can be steamrollered. That's the bottom line..

A certain Irish company had the idea and have designed large wind turbine which can sit out in the ocean. Far away from anyone on land etc.....government are unwilling to pay for them. So they position in land, in area's with lower populations.

It is also worht remembering these devices need wind, in major cities the wind is reduced because of the surrounds building etc so you are paying a huge amount of money for a device that would maybe work at 50% of capacity??? fairly pointless.....after all it is our taxes that pay for it

They need to be placed in optimal position so they can get close to capacity, that is not in a city

I have never gone to Netherlands and seen a wind turbine or even the old wind mills sitting in the middle of a city

eagle eye · 21-06-2019 10:20am

Shefwedfan wrote:

Additional taxes on diesel etc have been talked about for years, why everyone is surprised now is shocking? In reality they should have done this 2-3 years ago when it would have made a difference

Simple solution, tax airlines and all other environmentally unfriendly businesses, put all that money into subsidising electric cars and other environment friendly things.

bladespin · 21-06-2019 10:23am

BarryD2 wrote: »

Sorry GreeBo, it is a double standard. Dublin, Cork whatever will be deemed unsuitable locations for industrial scale wind turbines etc because too many residents would object to them. Rural areas will be considered suitable, because there are fewer residents there and their views can be steamrollered. That's the bottom line.

I'd say it has much more to do with turbulent wind caused by highly populated and built areas rather than the residents themselves.

Geuze · 21-06-2019 10:26am

cutelad wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong are we not taxed to the hilt on diesel?

You are wrong.

Our fuel excises are by no means the highest in the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/excise-duties-alcohol-tobacco-energy/excise-duties-energy_en

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/resources/documents/taxation/excise_duties/energy_products/rates/excise_duties-part_ii_energy_products_en.pdf

Geuze · 21-06-2019 10:29am

cutelad wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong are we not taxed to the hilt on diesel?

EU min excise on gas oil = 330 euro per 1000L or 33c per litre.

DE = 470 / 485

Finland = 530

Italy = 617

Ireland = 479 incl carbon tax element of 53.30

L1011 · 21-06-2019 10:30am

cutelad wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong are we not taxed to the hilt on diesel?

Diesel is abnormally cheap here compared to petrol when you look at other countries.

Both are below the EU average.

Geuze · 21-06-2019 10:30am

cutelad wrote: »

I see on this thread that the green agenda is Dublin based. Greens want all us country folk to move to cities

No they don't.

Sensible people want no more one-off rural houses, and for people to live in villages and towns.

Geuze · 21-06-2019 10:32am

eagle eye wrote: »

So if somebody chooses to live where they were brought up to mind their aging parents they should be punished for it?

If you choose to live in a one-off rural house, and therefore cause higher car usage, higher fuel use, and live more environmentally unsustainably, yes you should pay more carbon taxes.

Punished?

No, it's not a crime.

You choose this lifestyle.

Shefwedfan · 21-06-2019 10:37am

eagle eye wrote: »

Simple solution, tax airlines and all other environmentally unfriendly businesses, put all that money into subsidising electric cars and other environment friendly things.

How?

How exactly will you tax airlines if the rest of the World doesn't agree?

Charge them more to land in Dublin? They just won't land in Dublin.

Charge them more to base themselves in Dublin? they will just pull out and you will be left with Aerlingus as solo provider....with huge costs to try and travel

How many jobs are going to be lost if Ryanair and Emirates pull out of Dublin? if nobody is landing might as well cancel second runway?

Do you know how many passangers fly in/out of Dublin....30 million....maybe it doesn't seem high. But lets it this way. 60 million go via Heathrow. Yes it is double but how many terminals does heathrow have?

We need some ideas which doesnt end up with a huge chuck of work force on the dole queue and the country economy crippled

Imagine trying to tell a US company who wanted to invest we had no air travel in & out?

facehugger99 · 21-06-2019 10:39am

bladespin wrote: »

I'd say it has much more to do with turbulent wind caused by highly populated and built areas rather than the residents themselves.

It's to do with land cost and availability mostly.

If an average heactare of agricultural land in Dublin costs €35k, and you need 500 hectares for a mid-size wind-farm, that equates to nearly €20 million quid before you've even stuck a spade in the ground.

Not to mention how difficult it would be to acquire that amount of land in a county like Dublin or Kildare where there is competing pressure from residential and commercial sectors on the land use.

Thelonious Monk · 21-06-2019 10:44am

average_runner wrote: »

You forget the working age profile is getting older so cycling wont work for all of us, so we would need the public transport to be up to scratch.

Bullsh*t. My Dad cycled 9k each way to work until he retired. I intend to do the same.

Thelonious Monk · 21-06-2019 10:52am

As for people giving out about what the Greens did last time they were in power - what political party that ever existed in Ireland can you look back at and say they did a good job while in power? Look at FG now with the children's hospital and the broadband debacle and the housing crisis. Look what FF did last time they were in power. The Greens look pretty saintly compared to them.
We can just assume all politicians will be incompetent in this country, but for me I voted Green because at least they have some kind of vision that appeals to me.

BarryD2 · 21-06-2019 11:09am

I like to see the Greens doing OK but I'm a bit wary of this current type of Green thinking here which can be summarised as:

1) the population to live in cities & towns

2) slap heavy carbon taxes on transport and heating fuels

3) replace fossil fuels with electricity generated from multiple wind and solar farms

and hey presto, we can all carry on as now, in the lifestyles we've become accustomed to.

It's a technological vision viewed through green tinted glasses and as unsustainable a solution for humanity and the planet as what prevails currently. A false promise.

abcabc123123 · 21-06-2019 11:27am

BarryD2 wrote: »

It's a technological vision viewed through green tinted glasses and as unsustainable a solution for humanity and the planet as what prevails currently. A false promise.

It's also far closer to Fine Gael's approach to climate change than the Green Party's.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 21-06-2019 11:51am

Geuze wrote: »

If you choose to live in a one-off rural house, and therefore cause higher car usage, higher fuel use, and live more environmentally unsustainably, yes you should pay more carbon taxes.

Punished?

No, it's not a crime.

You choose this lifestyle.

Exactly the type of rhetoric that means the Green party will never get into power as a majority, thankfully. "We care, but screw you".

Thelonious Monk · 21-06-2019 11:57am

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Exactly the type of rhetoric that means the Green party will never get into power as a majority, thankfully. "We care, but screw you".

In fairness, how was one off housing scattered everywhere ever going to be sustainable? It makes services impossible to provide and means everyone is totally reliant on cars.

bladespin · 21-06-2019 12:10pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In fairness, how was one off housing scattered everywhere ever going to be sustainable? It makes services impossible to provide and means everyone is totally reliant on cars.

True but the problem is that it is what it is and they have to deal with that and the people affected rather than throw it back on them as if they 'chose' to live that way.

That said we do have a lot of one-off houses here but we're not nearly as scattered as is mad out, Ireland as a whole is a pretty small so there's no excuse for not having some sort of workable network of services.

Thelonious Monk · 21-06-2019 12:11pm

bladespin wrote: »

True but the problem is that it is what it is and they have to deal with that and the people affected rather than throw it back on them as if they 'chose' to live that way.

That said we do have a lot of one-off houses here but we're not nearly as scattered as is mad out, Ireland as a whole is a pretty small so there's no excuse for not having some sort of workable network of services.

No it's really bad, we have the most road per capita in EU. If you drive anywhere in the country it's just endless bungalows everywhere. Compare it with other Euro nations and you don't see it much at all, even in the UK.

abcabc123123 · 21-06-2019 12:26pm

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Exactly the type of rhetoric that means the Green party will never get into power as a majority, thankfully. "We care, but screw you".

Is Geuze a Green Party official?

abcabc123123 · 21-06-2019 12:28pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No it's really bad, we have the most road per capita in EU. If you drive anywhere in the country it's just endless bungalows everywhere. Compare it with other Euro nations and you don't see it much at all, even in the UK.

Indeed. I always find it striking to see all the newly built bungalows on the roads into small Irish towns, and then all of the derelict terrraced houses in the towns themselves. It's terrible planning.

ancapailldorcha · 21-06-2019 12:30pm

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Is Geuze a Green Party official?

Don't get personal please.

BarryD2 · 21-06-2019 12:45pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In fairness, how was one off housing scattered everywhere ever going to be sustainable? It makes services impossible to provide and means everyone is totally reliant on cars.

In fairness, one off housing is not a new phenomenon in Ireland. Both for farms but also there are many villages in rural Ireland that are linear in nature and you'd be hard put to say where the centre of the village is. It's a traditional pattern in places.

That said, I don't think we should unnecessarily adding to it. There's enough existing housing in rural area, towns and villages that can be done up and lived in, rather than imposing new structures on the landscape.

Thelonious Monk · 21-06-2019 12:50pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

In fairness, one off housing is not a new phenomenon in Ireland. Both for farms but also there are many villages in rural Ireland that are linear in nature and you'd be hard put to say where the centre of the village is. It's a traditional pattern in places.

That said, I don't think we should unnecessarily adding to it. There's enough existing housing in rural area, towns and villages that can be done up and lived in, rather than imposing new structures on the landscape.

But it seems inherent in Irish psyche to want to build a house on a bit of land away from other houses. I don't think that'll change any time soon, it's just trying to work around this that's the problem. Also most of them seem to look like they've been built in the last 20 years!

NIMAN · 21-06-2019 12:52pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

But it seems inherent in Irish psyche to want to build a house on a bit of land away from other houses. I don't think that'll change any time soon, it's just trying to work around this that's the problem. Also most of them seem to look like they've been built in the last 20 years!

But theres a reason why houses are built like this, they are on the family land.

Can't build them all in the centre of a village when the land is not there.

GreeBo · 21-06-2019 12:54pm

NIMAN wrote: »

But theres a reason why houses are built like this, they are on the family land.

Can't build them all in the centre of a village when the land is not there.

The sky is there, build up.

Living on the family land is fine, but not if you also need to commute 40 miles to work everyday.

People lived on family land when pretty much their entire lives revolved around the farm and the local town/village.
Not when they are commuting to Dublin.

bladespin · 21-06-2019 1:23pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No it's really bad, we have the most road per capita in EU. If you drive anywhere in the country it's just endless bungalows everywhere. Compare it with other Euro nations and you don't see it much at all, even in the UK.

Endless bungalows would be ideal in a way, problem is they aren't, they're scattered here and there but as we're tiny compared to the EU/UK it's not such a big problem, the big issue is doing something about networking these areas together rather than simply wagging a finger at them - it is what it is so deal with it rather than sitting on a high horse and saying it shouldn't be this way as the greenies do.

Geuze · 21-06-2019 1:25pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In fairness, how was one off housing scattered everywhere ever going to be sustainable? It makes services impossible to provide and means everyone is totally reliant on cars.

+100

Indeed, one-off rural housing is anti-rural Ireland, as it reduces the viability of villages and small towns.

Geuze · 21-06-2019 1:27pm

NIMAN wrote: »

But theres a reason why houses are built like this, they are on the family land.

Can't build them all in the centre of a village when the land is not there.

Fair enough, we need to zone land around villages for the construction of houses.

One-off houses if that's what people want, ok.

But within 1km of schools, shops, etc.

Shefwedfan · 21-06-2019 1:31pm

bladespin wrote: »

Endless bungalows would be ideal in a way, problem is they aren't, they're scattered here and there but as we're tiny compared to the EU/UK it's not such a big problem, the big issue is doing something about networking these areas together rather than simply wagging a finger at them - it is what it is so deal with it rather than sitting on a high horse and saying it shouldn't be this way as the greenies do.

I don't mind the small houses dotted around, it is changing and councils are starting to restrict those buildings. But you have a huge loop hole by buying an old shed and then just building on it.

You are correct Ireland is small, we also have a massive percentage of our roads system with a very low km limit. The amount of 50km/h and 80km/h roads in Ireland is huge.

Hence why.....you knew I was going somewhere......Ireland is perfect for electric cars. The older electric cars get the best performance at 80km-100km per hour. Above this and your kwh/100km rises sharly. The thing is most roads or well over 95% of them you legally cannot travel over 80km let alone 100km/h....buy or build a house in middle of nowhere, but insulate it, install a heat pump, install a charge point and buy an electric car.....sticking a tank on the side and hiding the fact you are buying tractor diesel for your car??? those days are gone

facehugger99 · 21-06-2019 1:40pm

NIMAN wrote: »

But theres a reason why houses are built like this, they are on the family land.

Can't build them all in the centre of a village when the land is not there.

The land is there, it's just not as cheap to buy a site in a village compared to mammy and daddy giving you a half-acre site on the farm.

It's another typically Irish 'sure, what's the harm' planning policy that has lead to the death of rural towns and villages and placed huge strain on the infrastructure network.

No other country would entertain this kind of one off housing policy and it's still happening regularly.

blanch152 · 21-06-2019 2:57pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

The land is there, it's just not as cheap to buy a site in a village compared to mammy and daddy giving you a half-acre site on the farm.

It's another typically Irish 'sure, what's the harm' planning policy that has lead to the death of rural towns and villages and placed huge strain on the infrastructure network.

No other country would entertain this kind of one off housing policy and it's still happening regularly.

You are 100% correct.

This planning policy is what has made public services so expensive to deliver in Ireland but also why we are so bad on environmental issues.

Don't forget the empty barrel out the back to burn all the rubbish in once a week.

ancapailldorcha · 21-06-2019 3:02pm

Mod: Can we keep focused on the Green party please and not have this turn into yet another rural vs urban Ireland thread please. Thanks.

NIMAN · 21-06-2019 3:09pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Living on the family land is fine, but not if you also need to commute 40 miles to work everyday.

People lived on family land when pretty much their entire lives revolved around the farm and the local town/village.
Not when they are commuting to Dublin.

I would hazard a guess that most of the people in Ireland commuting to Dublin or other cities DON'T live on their family land.

So why are those folk not getting abuse?

GreeBo · 21-06-2019 3:18pm

NIMAN wrote: »

I would hazard a guess that most of the people in Ireland commuting to Dublin or other cities DON'T live on their family land.

So why are those folk not getting abuse?

I don't think anyone is getting abused; but there has been plenty of criticism of people commuting long distances (especially when those people are complaining about being taxed based on their pollution)

eagle eye · 21-06-2019 6:14pm

The core of the issue is the greens getting enough seats to have an impact. I doubt that will happen, thankfully.

cutelad · 21-06-2019 6:18pm

The green lobby loonies are mainly city folk. On here I see how rude they are to good folk living in the country. With Brexit looming a down in our economy it will sharpen minds. We can't afford stealth taxes. It will be rich city folk against country folk.

GreeBo · 21-06-2019 6:19pm

eagle eye wrote: »

The core of the issue is the greens getting enough seats to have an impact. I doubt that will happen, thankfully.

I don't think it will be a green only issue for long.

EU fines are gong to be an issue for whoever is in power, Leo already brings it up frequently enough.

Thelonious Monk · 21-06-2019 6:25pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I don't think it will be a green only issue for long.

EU fines are gong to be an issue for whoever is in power, Leo already brings it up frequently enough.

I heard a farmer once again saying we produce beef and dairy cleaner than any country in EU on Morning Ireland the other day. Teagasc and the UN say we are the worst.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/irish-agriculture-greenwashing-its-climate-impact-an-taisce-1.3855084

The environmental group said a recent United Nations report found Ireland to be the “most carbon-intensive beef producer in Europe”

I don't know who to believe.

I doubt even the greens would try and reduce how much beef and dairy we produce though.

Shefwedfan · 21-06-2019 7:06pm

eagle eye wrote: »

The core of the issue is the greens getting enough seats to have an impact. I doubt that will happen, thankfully.

FF and FG will be making th decision, even if Green are in or out of government

maccored · 22-06-2019 7:41pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The idea of increased fuel prices is to punish those who made unsustainable life choices. Nobody in government ever forced anyone to live on top of a hill in the middle of nowhere. Neither did they force anyone to travel 100kms a day to work. All of that is individual choice. If carbon taxes force people to make more sustainable individual choices, then that can only be good.

none of this provides an answer to the question I raised. Though who lives on a hill and travels 100 kms a day to work, and whoever that is, whats it got to to do with the idea of providing suitable public transport before carbon taxing people to get to work?

It quite simply has nothing to do with the issue and and doesnt provide any answers.

Eric Cartman · 23-06-2019 5:25pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The idea of increased fuel prices is to punish those who made unsustainable life choices. Nobody in government ever forced anyone to live on top of a hill in the middle of nowhere. Neither did they force anyone to travel 100kms a day to work. All of that is individual choice. If carbon taxes force people to make more sustainable individual choices, then that can only be good.

somebody living in a county surrounding dublin who works in the city in finance or tech where there are no local options, who is still living on the family farm because they can't afford a house or are caring for elderly parents is a very common scenario here.

cutelad · 26-06-2019 10:21pm

I simply think it's a joke if we don't put infrastructure in place to support the option government want. So say in Kerry have 100 points of electric charge ippoints support community. Why 100 locations you ask? Because it's for tourism. Loonie Greens want to ban local airports send them tourist to Dublin then transport them to Kerry by bus. Joke

If the Green Party got into government are they mad

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