Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

kevthegaff · 14-04-2021 8:44am

Mooooo wrote: »

Yeah. Unsure of what will happen. In my case I dont think buying/ renting land would help much if dero goes as wont be able to stock it enough to utilise or pay for it. Perhaps just a case of planning what I need to do and go when/ if there is more certainty there. Carrying a bit of debt already and can manage relatively high levels but when the milk out the gate pays for everything if that is pulled from under you it's a different kettle of fish. Would feel for any glanbia suppliers who are in that position

If dero is pulled, what will the stocking rate be roughly

Mooooo · 14-04-2021 8:48am

kevthegaff wrote: »

If dero is pulled, what will the stocking rate be roughly

1.9 lu/ ha I think.

GrasstoMilk · 14-04-2021 9:43am

Timmaay wrote: »

Ash before Oak, we are in for a soak? Hopefully the trees are correct this spring anyways lol.

Oak is out here first

GrasstoMilk · 14-04-2021 10:21am

whelan2 wrote: »

Anyone get the allocation for the glanbia milk supply thing? Very happy here

Not really suiting us here , will be applying to the reserve and see what happens
The way we're set up atm it doesn't suit to be curtailed at all

Morris Moss · 14-04-2021 10:47am

Mooooo wrote: »

1.9 lu/ ha I think.

If you weren't getting any payments I wonder would it still apply?

jaymla627 · 14-04-2021 11:22am

Morris Moss wrote: »

If you weren't getting any payments I wonder would it still apply?

Not at the minute

Mooooo · 14-04-2021 11:23am

Technically it is via the bps system the fines would be implemented but you wouldn't know.
Have heard of rumours of greening measures in new cap being linked to bord bia accreditation

straight · 14-04-2021 12:55pm

Morris Moss wrote: »

If you weren't getting any payments I wonder would it still apply?

Cross compliance would pick it up I guess

Morris Moss · 14-04-2021 1:22pm

straight wrote: »

Cross compliance would pick it up I guess

Bit that's the thing, if you don't take the payment they'd have no grounds for cross compliance.

I'm sure the EPA would be notified anyway if anything was out of place.

straight · 14-04-2021 1:58pm

Morris Moss wrote: »

Bit that's the thing, if you don't take the payment they'd have no grounds for cross compliance.

I'm sure the EPA would be notified anyway if anything was out of place.

Or the county council.

Grueller · 14-04-2021 2:05pm

straight wrote: »

Or the county council.

But if you had truck loads of storage, say growing maize to use up slurry and it was spread responsibly and were farming in a way that was not adversely affecting livestock or the environment, what gripe could the county council or the epa have with an arbitrary number dreamt up by a civil servant in an office?

straight · 14-04-2021 3:36pm

Grueller wrote: »

But if you had truck loads of storage, say growing maize to use up slurry and it was spread responsibly and were farming in a way that was not adversely affecting livestock or the environment, what gripe could the county council or the epa have with an arbitrary number dreamt up by a civil servant in an office?

I'm sure they would find some bit of legislation somewhere if they wanted to. The climate is number 1 now and that's not going to change. Water, biodiversity, greenhouse gasses are the be all and end all now. Sure we can import the food from South America and from glasshouses in Spain.

visatorro · 14-04-2021 10:34pm

whelan2 wrote:

Anyone get the allocation for the glanbia milk supply thing? Very happy here

Your peak supply management?

kevthegaff · 14-04-2021 10:36pm

straight wrote: »

I'm sure they would find some bit of legislation somewhere if they wanted to. The climate is number 1 now and that's not going to change. Water, biodiversity, greenhouse gasses are the be all and end all now. Sure we can import the food from South America and from glasshouses in Spain.

Where on high ground here, and all the farms in the area getting a council lad calling in unannounced for the last 12 months

green daries · 14-04-2021 10:40pm

straight wrote: »

I'm sure they would find some bit of legislation somewhere if they wanted to. The climate is number 1 now and that's not going to change. Water, biodiversity, greenhouse gasses are the be all and end all now. Sure we can import the food from South America and from glasshouses in Spain.

The Nitrates directive is a county council by law but an agreement was reached that the department of agriculture would implement the inspection regime after all the shenanigans of lads getting two or more inspection in a couple of weeks by different authorities

green daries · 14-04-2021 10:42pm

green daries wrote: »

The Nitrates directive is a county council by law but an agreement was reached that the department of agriculture would implement the inspection regime after all the shenanigans of lads getting two or more inspection in a couple of weeks by different authorities

They still have the power to inspect

Castlekeeper · 14-04-2021 11:47pm

straight wrote: »

I'm sure they would find some bit of legislation somewhere if they wanted to. The climate is number 1 now and that's not going to change. Water, biodiversity, greenhouse gasses are the be all and end all now. Sure we can import the food from South America and from glasshouses in Spain.

That's the current model, plus we export dairy commodities.

jd_12345 · 15-04-2021 12:14pm

What are people using for reference costs for 7.5m dribble bar retrofit? Deciding last minute to put in an application and advisor is telling me not to bother just get in a contractor. We currently Have a fresh (2014 2000 gallon major with very little done) tanker and during summer would like to follow cows without having to wait for contractor to spread 6/7 acres at a time.

Edit: I'm filling in the application online myself atm before tomorrow's deadline and wondering what reference cost to put down

Reggie. · 15-04-2021 1:50pm

jd_12345 wrote: »

What are people using for reference costs for 7.5m dribble bar retrofit? Deciding last minute to put in an application and advisor is telling me not to bother just get in a contractor. We currently Have a fresh (2014 2000 gallon major with very little done) tanker and during summer would like to follow cows without having to wait for contractor to spread 6/7 acres at a time.

New your talking about 13k to 15k inc vat

atlantic mist · 15-04-2021 3:05pm

asked council to fill in a few pot holes at by our entrance, they said its our responsibility blaming rain water flowing down a lane, and if a car blows a wheel its our responsibility, the road gets resurfaced ever 13 years

are we allowed close road ourselves to fix? are we allowed fill pot holes in with concrete as we dont have access to tar?

Mooooo · 15-04-2021 3:15pm

If the pot holes are on a public road it's there responsibility. If water is coming down the lane to cause it that you can prevent or rectify on your own property do so but the council should do the road

visatorro · 15-04-2021 5:09pm

atlantic mist wrote:

asked council to fill in a few pot holes at by our entrance, they said its our responsibility blaming rain water flowing down a lane, and if a car blows a wheel its our responsibility, the road gets resurfaced ever 13 years

Don't like bashing anyone but Iv tried dealing with my Co Co twice recently. Most unhelpful, over paid, under worked and over paid shower of half rotten dung that couldn't organise a good riot in the North.

straight · 15-04-2021 5:31pm

jd_12345 wrote: »

What are people using for reference costs for 7.5m dribble bar retrofit? Deciding last minute to put in an application and advisor is telling me not to bother just get in a contractor. We currently Have a fresh (2014 2000 gallon major with very little done) tanker and during summer would like to follow cows without having to wait for contractor to spread 6/7 acres at a time.

I've got approval for a new 2000g tank and 7.5m dribble bar. I see now I could actually buy a second hand tank and retrofit a new dribble bar so some second hand tanks might be worth a look. Derogation farmers aren't allowed to apply any longer but I'm sure if I'm already approved I will be able to draw down.

Injuryprone · 15-04-2021 8:52pm

atlantic mist wrote: »

asked council to fill in a few pot holes at by our entrance, they said its our responsibility blaming rain water flowing down a lane, and if a car blows a wheel its our responsibility, the road gets resurfaced ever 13 years

are we allowed close road ourselves to fix? are we allowed fill pot holes in with concrete as we dont have access to tar?

Get that response in writing I'd say

straight · 16-04-2021 9:10pm

A decade of pain they are calling it...

Key targets in the Agri food strategy 2030.

Climate-neutral agriculture sector by 2050, with substantial verifiable progress by 2030.
Water quality - agriculture will reduce nutrient losses to water by 50% by 2030.
Biodiversity - 10% of farmed area prioritised for biodiversity and 30% of marine protected areas by 2030.
Air quality - reduce ammonia emissions below 107,500t by 2030.

implies a cut of 55,500t is needed in nitrogen use by 2030

Some 10% of farmed land is to be prioritised for biodiversity under the draft strategy

AgClimatise makes clear that an increase in the national cattle herd above current levels will jeopardise the achievement of the sector attaining climate neutrality by 2050,

Say my name · 16-04-2021 9:59pm

straight wrote: »

A decade of pain they are calling it...

Key targets in the Agri food strategy 2030.

Climate-neutral agriculture sector by 2050, with substantial verifiable progress by 2030.
Water quality - agriculture will reduce nutrient losses to water by 50% by 2030.
Biodiversity - 10% of farmed area prioritised for biodiversity and 30% of marine protected areas by 2030.
Air quality - reduce ammonia emissions below 107,500t by 2030.

implies a cut of 55,500t is needed in nitrogen use by 2030

Some 10% of farmed land is to be prioritised for biodiversity under the draft strategy

AgClimatise makes clear that an increase in the national cattle herd above current levels will jeopardise the achievement of the sector attaining climate neutrality by 2050,

Dawggone has been flagging the fertilizer possibility since he came on here decades ago.
For the pen pushers it's a real easy target.

Listening to a little about it this evening on the local wireless. And while this is a dairy thread tillage farming is going to be effected too. Fert restrictions will hit tilled ground more. They don't know it yet but the plough will go the same way as the slurry splashplate. Another box ticked.
Min tillage only with cover crops or winter crops over winter.
They're going on about mandatory feed additives for dairy stock.
I'm still concerned about protected urea and I'd like to see independent results on groundwater of these additives and more emphasis on effects of soil organic nitrogen from each product. To me this was all rushed through and we await any effects which can't be undone in the future.
More research should be put into soil organic nitrogen and reasons why each soil behaves it's way. Rather than the current just results and this soil makes three times as much nitrogen as that soil. With zero explanation given.

Personally for me I feel there's going to be lots of nonsense. You'll have arbitrary decisions made on paper with zero thoughts on the real world. Accounting with zero differences in the real world. Some damage could be done both to farmers livelihoods and also the environment by supposedly friendly methods. There's a touch of the Gestapo of this too being forced on farmers which mostly had nothing to do with farmers but from actions of the wider community.

Do I see it as positive not really.
The glory days of farming to me are over.
Maybe people's health will improve from all this. We'll see.

Birdnuts · 16-04-2021 11:34pm

straight wrote: »

A decade of pain they are calling it...

Key targets in the Agri food strategy 2030.

Climate-neutral agriculture sector by 2050, with substantial verifiable progress by 2030.
Water quality - agriculture will reduce nutrient losses to water by 50% by 2030.
Biodiversity - 10% of farmed area prioritised for biodiversity and 30% of marine protected areas by 2030.
Air quality - reduce ammonia emissions below 107,500t by 2030.

implies a cut of 55,500t is needed in nitrogen use by 2030

Some 10% of farmed land is to be prioritised for biodiversity under the draft strategy

AgClimatise makes clear that an increase in the national cattle herd above current levels will jeopardise the achievement of the sector attaining climate neutrality by 2050,

Glenisk is currently paying 50c/L for organic milk and 60c if supplied in winter. Has anyone one here done the maths on this versus conventional?? Obviously less cows but big savings in artificial inputs

green daries · 17-04-2021 3:19am

Birdnuts wrote: »

Glenisk is currently paying 50c/L for organic milk and 60c if supplied in winter. Has anyone one here done the maths on this versus conventional?? Obviously less cows but big savings in artificial inputs

Unfortunately the farmer would need more than double the land to produce a viable amount of milk so even higher costs than fertiliser usage
Milk cheques from organic purchasers have been known to be intermittent by times
It's probably nearly unfixable to convert to organic dairy at this stage
A new dairy start up may be a runner

Gawddawggonnit · 17-04-2021 7:34am

Birdnuts wrote: »

Glenisk is currently paying 50c/L for organic milk and 60c if supplied in winter. Has anyone one here done the maths on this versus conventional?? Obviously less cows but big savings in artificial inputs

There’s good margins to be made out of producing organic milk at that money. I know organic lads producing 9000L/Hd comfortably.

I was reading somewhere that the Eu organic market is worth €48bil and growing.
Dairy is a simple changeover but tillage is difficult (without grants anyhow).
Is there much research being done?

Mooooo · 17-04-2021 8:47am

straight wrote: »

A decade of pain they are calling it...

Key targets in the Agri food strategy 2030.

Climate-neutral agriculture sector by 2050, with substantial verifiable progress by 2030.
Water quality - agriculture will reduce nutrient losses to water by 50% by 2030.
Biodiversity - 10% of farmed area prioritised for biodiversity and 30% of marine protected areas by 2030.
Air quality - reduce ammonia emissions below 107,500t by 2030.

implies a cut of 55,500t is needed in nitrogen use by 2030

Some 10% of farmed land is to be prioritised for biodiversity under the draft strategy

AgClimatise makes clear that an increase in the national cattle herd above current levels will jeopardise the achievement of the sector attaining climate neutrality by 2050,

I dunno. Farmers incomes are the last thing any of those fcukers will think of. I'm gonna keep the stocking rate as high as I can anyway until we know what's happening. The can count the existing ditches on my land on that 10% too...

Mooooo · 17-04-2021 8:49am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

There’s good margins to be made out of producing organic milk at that money. I know organic lads producing 9000L/Hd comfortably.

I was reading somewhere that the Eu organic market is worth €48bil and growing.
Dairy is a simple changeover but tillage is difficult (without grants anyhow).
Is there much research being done?

All due respect dawg, can that be done in Ireland without decimating the majority of farms? I doubt it

Pinsnbushings · 17-04-2021 10:10am

What kind of stocking rates are achievable in organic systems?
Are you allowed to house cows all year round in Ireland I wonder? I presume most organic cows are housed all year in Europe?

green daries · 17-04-2021 11:52am

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

There’s good margins to be made out of producing organic milk at that money. I know organic lads producing 9000L/Hd comfortably.

I was reading somewhere that the Eu organic market is worth €48bil and growing.
Dairy is a simple changeover but tillage is difficult (without grants anyhow).
Is there much research being done?

None really expansion was the basket where all all the grass eggs were put ( my own included)

Acquiescence · 17-04-2021 11:59am

Pinsnbushings wrote: »

What kind of stocking rates are achievable in organic systems?
Are you allowed to house cows all year round in Ireland I wonder? I presume most organic cows are housed all year in Europe?

You are allowed. Minimum specs for housing are different as far as I know.

I'd find it hard to reconcile organic with fully housed personally.

Gawddawggonnit · 17-04-2021 12:02pm

Mooooo wrote: »

All due respect dawg, can that be done in Ireland without decimating the majority of farms? I doubt it

Why not?

50-60cpl is not to be sneezed at.

Plenty market there for organic dairy, but I would think that there’s little demand for organic milk powder? The powers that be don’t want such tomfoolery taking off either...less fert, less inputs etc wouldn’t really suit the industry.

Any new entrants here are mostly going for the organic option. The extra 5cpl for the first 5yrs is attractive also.
If I’d nothing only dairy I’d certainly be organic. The only real loss is artificial fert and that’s easy enough to cope with. No difference in antibiotics (etc) use also.

* Plenty talk about once a day milking, but no push for organic...why?

Gawddawggonnit · 17-04-2021 12:04pm

Pinsnbushings wrote: »

What kind of stocking rates are achievable in organic systems?
Are you allowed to house cows all year round in Ireland I wonder? I presume most organic cows are housed all year in Europe?

I think that the cows must be grazed for 150days to qualify. I’m not 100% sure of that.

Morris Moss · 17-04-2021 12:25pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Why not?

50-60cpl is not to be sneezed at.

Plenty market there for organic dairy, but I would think that there’s little demand for organic milk powder? The powers that be don’t want such tomfoolery taking off either...less fert, less inputs etc wouldn’t really suit the industry.

Any new entrants here are mostly going for the organic option. The extra 5cpl for the first 5yrs is attractive also.
If I’d nothing only dairy I’d certainly be organic. The only real loss is artificial fert and that’s easy enough to cope with. No difference in antibiotics (etc) use also.

* Plenty talk about once a day milking, but no push for organic...why?

I'd say lack of processers is one reason, know a few lads who enquired about it, would have been new entrants at the time, they said it was more hassle than it was worth regarding housing, winter milk and organic feed.

Pinsnbushings · 17-04-2021 12:46pm

Acquiescence wrote: »

You are allowed. Minimum specs for housing are different as far as I know.

I'd find it hard to reconcile organic with fully housed personally.

I would too but my land is too fragmented to graze it all. I'd say I'd only carry about 20 cows around the parlour in an organic system. Really would need to be selling direct at that scale..now it could be done I'm sure but whether I have the skill set I don't know.
I enquired with 1 company who take organic milk but they don't give any contract so you would be weary of being stuck with the milk.

Gawddawggonnit · 17-04-2021 12:55pm

Pinsnbushings wrote: »

I would too but my land is too fragmented to graze it all. I'd say I'd only carry about 20 cows around the parlour in an organic system. Really would need to be selling direct at that scale..now it could be done I'm sure but whether I have the skill set I don't know.
I enquired with 1 company who take organic milk but they don't give any contract so you would be weary of being stuck with the milk.

We buy our butter from a lad milking very few cows. He makes his own butter and salt (he’s by the sea) and he charges €16/kg this year. He can’t produce enough for demand. He sends a text when a batch is made and if you don’t get it that very day it’ll be sold out. Nicest butter I’ve ever eaten.

yosemitesam1 · 17-04-2021 1:21pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Why not?

50-60cpl is not to be sneezed at.

Plenty market there for organic dairy, but I would think that there’s little demand for organic milk powder? The powers that be don’t want such tomfoolery taking off either...less fert, less inputs etc wouldn’t really suit the industry.

Any new entrants here are mostly going for the organic option. The extra 5cpl for the first 5yrs is attractive also.
If I’d nothing only dairy I’d certainly be organic. The only real loss is artificial fert and that’s easy enough to cope with. No difference in antibiotics (etc) use also.

* Plenty talk about once a day milking, but no push for organic...why?

There seems to be very little appetite for trying something new or experimenting, unless it's pretty much 100% parcelled up and ready to go but by that stage it's far too late

GrasstoMilk · 17-04-2021 1:26pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

We buy our butter from a lad milking very few cows. He makes his own butter and salt (he’s by the sea) and he charges €16/kg this year. He can’t produce enough for demand. He sends a text when a batch is made and if you don’t get it that very day it’ll be sold out. Nicest butter I’ve ever eaten.

You must have forgotten what kerrygold tastes like

atlantic mist · 17-04-2021 1:40pm

50/60c a litre are very round figures...anyone verify current price glenisk is paying??

market for organics is too small in ireland, eu and worldwide

if there was a large enough market with the consumer willing to pay the extra cost and allow the primary producer a margin over cost wed all be at it

only difference at this stage between organic and conventional is nitrogen....drugs ok just longer withdrawl periods.... the drugs to me makes a mockery of the idea of organics

Mooooo · 17-04-2021 1:45pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Why not?

50-60cpl is not to be sneezed at.

Plenty market there for organic dairy, but I would think that there’s little demand for organic milk powder? The powers that be don’t want such tomfoolery taking off either...less fert, less inputs etc wouldn’t really suit the industry.

Any new entrants here are mostly going for the organic option. The extra 5cpl for the first 5yrs is attractive also.
If I’d nothing only dairy I’d certainly be organic. The only real loss is artificial fert and that’s easy enough to cope with. No difference in antibiotics (etc) use also.

* Plenty talk about once a day milking, but no push for organic...why?

Again apply you're thinking to doing it here, not in France. A certain amount could convert, but the scale of our dairy in relation our population, and consumers would mean prices would revert to conventional or less very fast as well as a lot of farms would lack the scale of land to make an adequate profit from organic Already seen in beef re prices. Cutting costs is all well and good but wont make much difference if financial output is also affected
Oad is a lifestyle not a profit metric.

Siamsa Sessions · 17-04-2021 1:50pm

atlantic mist wrote: »

50/60c a litre are very round figures...anyone verify current price glenisk is paying??

market for organics is too small in ireland, eu and worldwide

if there was a large enough market with the consumer willing to pay the extra cost and allow the primary producer a margin over cost wed all be at it

only difference at this stage between organic and conventional is nitrogen....drugs ok just longer withdrawl periods.... the drugs to me makes a mockery of the idea of organics

If more converted to organic it’d increase supply and reduce price. By definition it can only be a niche market unless food in general starts to rise in price and the supermarkets point consumers towards it coz they can make a big margin on it.

I’d consider organic as a potential new dairy entrant but it’s the extra bureaucracy that’s putting me off.

K.G. · 17-04-2021 2:20pm

Steady on lads how many of these aspirational documents have we seen in the past.we will have to tweak what we re doing as we go along.and dont forget things dont be long changing when they have to and that works both ways

green daries · 17-04-2021 4:14pm

K.G. wrote: »

Steady on lads how many of these aspirational documents have we seen in the past.we will have to tweak what we re doing as we go along.and dont forget things dont be long changing when they have to and that works both ways

If half the changes being talked about across the industry are brought in or implemented and enforced we will be one step away from being organic

Gawddawggonnit · 17-04-2021 4:55pm

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

You must have forgotten what kerrygold tastes like

I haven’t forgotten at all but it can’t be bought here...anyhow yer mans butter is nicer. Cows are grazed on the marshes that are full of wild flowers and herbs. Sometimes if we’ve Irish visitors they get a bit concerned about the large salt crystals in the butter, but they love it once it’s explained to them.

**Imagine the premium that organic Kerrygold would command.

Gawddawggonnit · 17-04-2021 4:58pm

atlantic mist wrote: »

only difference at this stage between organic and conventional is nitrogen....drugs ok just longer withdrawl periods.... the drugs to me makes a mockery of the idea of organics

+1 It’s a joke.
The only true organics are cereals and veg.

Gawddawggonnit · 17-04-2021 5:01pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

There seems to be very little appetite for trying something new or experimenting, unless it's pretty much 100% parcelled up and ready to go but by that stage it's far too late

Absolutely correct.

Gawddawggonnit · 17-04-2021 5:10pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Again apply you're thinking to doing it here, not in France. A certain amount could convert, but the scale of our dairy in relation our population, and consumers would mean prices would revert to conventional or less very fast as well as a lot of farms would lack the scale of land to make an adequate profit from organic Already seen in beef re prices. Cutting costs is all well and good but wont make much difference if financial output is also affected
Oad is a lifestyle not a profit metric.

Hard to disagree with you...but it’s NOT illegal to produce a range of products other than milk powder/industrial cheese. There’s hundreds of millions of consumers in the Eu that want to buy organic dairy, just not what Ireland produces...building milk dryers isn’t exactly looking outside the box. It’s lazy marketing, is all.

Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

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