Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Deleted User wrote: »

From the previous thread:

It's easy to forget that 5 years ago, there was no hope of ever leaving the EU in the minds of many, that's why they didn't think about it.
Now they've been given hope, a referendum and a favorable result that shows a majority (of voters) want to leave, now they want it to happen.

That is not "brainwashing", it's a suppressed aspiration that now has a real possibility of happening. So it's foremost in their minds and they want it done.

Well, possibly. But very few of them seem to have given any thought to how it might be done, and very few seem at all bothered by the fact that the opportunity to do it is being squandered by the shambolic incompetence of the political leadership of the Brexit movement.

It seems to that the Brexit movement is still largely fuelled by wishful thinking, rather than an engagement with reality. We probably all engage in a bit of wishful thinking when all other avenues are closed to us, and we find it consoling. But to prefer wishful thinking when you actually have a real chance to achieve something you claim to want, to sabotage your own position in this way, is just . . . well, a bit disturbing.

prunudo wrote: »

It's already started to play out, not war but military action.
http://news.sky.com/story/saudi-arabia-drone-attacks-johnson-refuses-to-rule-out-military-action-11817540

He's hardly going to have a Blair moment of is own?


I'd like to think Parliamentarians(if they are recalled) won't be duped into wasting time in the house on this.

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

A war before Brexit deadline day? Against who and what reason would be given for such an act?

Against us for being big bad bullies and not allowing them to leave on their terms, etc, etc

Corbyn waffling in an interview. Well, I guess not waffling - he's always been anti-EU. This is one major reason this Brexit farce has gone on as long as it has - an opposition leader failing to oppose.

https://www.politico.eu/article/corbyn-brexit-uk-better-off-outside-eu-with-right-deal/

FrankPoll. wrote: »

Corbyn not even expressing an opinion

How anyone could vote for Him..

Boris just as bad with the no-deal charade

What is the the point of wasting everybody's time and airtime with the no deal nonsense

No Boris is not 'just as bad' - Boris is infinitely worse.

Labour are not responsible for Brexit. Labour are not responsible for 'no deal'. Labour are not responsible for the illegal suspension of Parliament.

Labour are in opposition. While it can be better to be clear on policy - it is their prerogative not to be. I would argue though that the Labour position is perfectly clear. Vote for us and you get another referendum. They are offering a democratic route to revocation of A50. What else is it that people want? They are not in government.

This attempt to paint a picture where Corbyn is in someway responsible in a manner that exceeds this current line of Tory disaster capitalists is reprehensible and mindless to me.

lawred2 wrote: »

This attempt to paint a picture where Corbyn is in someway responsible in a manner that exceeds this current line of Tory disaster capitalists is reprehensible and mindless to me.

Reprehensible, yes, but it isn't mindless. Clever people with very deep pockets are funding the relentless drumbeat that everything is Corbyn's fault.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Reprehensible, yes, but it isn't mindless. Clever people with very deep pockets are funding the relentless drumbeat that everything is Corbyn's fault.

it's mindless from the drones that parrot it

FrankPoll. wrote: »

My post went from Corbyn not expressing an opinion to being blamed for everything

You said Boris was "Just as bad" as Corbyn. Which is wrong, because Corbyn has been in opposition since before Brexit got started, so he has not been in charge of a single one of the disastrous decisions taken by the UK Government.

Personally, I would have been happier with a robust supporter of the EU as leader of the opposition, and Corbyn clearly isn't a fan. But that does not make any of this his fault.

And since the Tories started imploding, he has made several good moves, and is now offering a route to a 2nd Referendum with a revoke A50 option, exactly what the People's Vote folks have been looking for.

As a Leader of the Opposition in a time of crisis, Corbyn is useless. His political ideology is at variance with most party voters and the large majority of the British public. His position on Brexit is at variance with party members and most MPs. He remains a charisma free zone. He has dithered and prevaricated on Brexit (probably deliberately so) to the point where nobody can say what Labour's position is on Brexit. Even if there were a definitive position, it would change tomorrow. His failure to lead throughout the Brexit fiasco is a disgrace. It is no wonder that his approval rating have been consistently dire despite the dreadful performances of May and Johnson. He is the Tory party's best friend.

Enzokk wrote: »

In another ironic twist of some sort, Thomas Cook has ceased operations taking with it thousands of jobs. They warned that Brexit was playing a role but were told not to blame Brexit for the poor running of the company. Those passengers now affected by the closure will have some degree of cover thanks to the EU and the regulations they have put in place for this exact scenario.

What is baffling to me is that people would still think Brexit is a good idea, even after countless examples of the good the EU has done for people in the UK.

They have been fed lies by the Tory press for decades. It's akin to a religion at this stage.

FrankPoll. wrote: »

I phrased it badly, it's hard to take him seriously when he sits on the fence

All this alleged blame on corbyn is like a reverse conspiracy theory

you'll admit that that's a long way from Boris being almost as bad as him...

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

As a Leader of the Opposition in a time of crisis, Corbyn is useless. His political ideology is at variance with most party voters and the large majority of the British public. His position on Brexit is at variance with party members and most MPs. He remains a charisma free zone. He has dithered and prevaricated on Brexit (probably deliberately so) to the point where nobody can say what Labour's position is on Brexit. Even if there were a definitive position, it would change tomorrow. His failure to lead throughout the Brexit fiasco is a disgrace. It is no wonder that his approval rating have been consistently dire despite the dreadful performances of May and Johnson. He is the Tory party's best friend.

I understand that you don't like him, I am not a fan myself, but Brexit is not his fault.

He could have been winning medals for leadership and charisma since the referendum and Brexit would have proceeded in exactly the way, because Corbyn has not been in charge. The only real measure of his leadership since then was the 2017 election, where he ran a good campaign and outperformed the polls robbing May of her majority.

Since Boris lost control, Corbyn has acted sensibly to block No Deal and he has adopted a policy which gives a route to Remain if that is what the electorate want, or a softer Labour Brexit if Leave wins the next referendum which it may well do.

You should perhaps consider that you are influenced in your personal dislike for the man by the relentless media hate campaign against him, a campaign which attacks every Labour leader, but is even more intensely anti-Corbyn because even the weakly left wing media like the Guardian are captured by the Blairites and hate Corbyn too.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I understand that you don't like him, I am not a fan myself, but Brexit is not his fault.

He could have been winning medals for leadership and charisma since the referendum and Brexit would have proceeded in exactly the way, because Corbyn has not been in charge. The only real measure of his leadership since then was the 2017 election, where he ran a good campaign and outperformed the polls robbing May of her majority.

Since Boris lost control, Corbyn has acted sensibly to block No Deal and he has adopted a policy which gives a route to Remain if that is what the electorate want, or a softer Labour Brexit if Leave wins the next referendum which it may well do.

You should perhaps consider that you are influenced in your personal dislike for the man by the relentless media hate campaign against him, a campaign which attacks every Labour leader, but is even more intensely anti-Corbyn because even the weakly left wing media like the Guardian are captured by the Blairites and hate Corbyn too.

I'm considerably more nuanced than you might think I am. You can blame the media but that's an easy way out. Johnson gets a much harder time than Corbyn in The Guardian, The Mirror, The New Statesman and The Independent. Similarly, most interviewers and reporters on Channel 4, BBC and Sky lean towards Remain and consequently tend to challenge Johnson more than Corbyn.

The Tory media have hammered Corbyn. That's down to their obvious bias but he's also given them a lot of ammunition. In leadership, personality matters. Johnson is infinitely more charismatic than Corbyn and that matters greatly. That's not how it should be but it's how it is. As it happens, I think that Corbyn is a man of deep integrity. His problem is his demeanour and personality, his political ideology and his indecisiveness. This isn't Tory propaganda, these are facts.

Spain is looking for reciprocal treatment for the citizens in the UK and British citizens in Spain.

https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1176011727856685056?s=20

So essentially it comes down to how the UK will treat Spanish citizens post Brexit, that will determine how their citizens are treated in Spain. Thank goodness for those immigrants from the UK that they have a compassionate and empathetic Home Office that will ensure they will only get the best of both worlds.

Try as I might, I just can't understand the logic of creeps like Michael Gove.

Gove: Tories will collapse if UK is not out of EU by October 31

Rebels who do not back the PM will bring ruin on the party, warns the minister in charge of no-deal preparations

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gove-tories-will-collapse-if-uk-is-not-out-by-october-31-d2mkbpjj9

What he is saying is the survival of the Tory party is more important than the evisveration of the UK in a No Deal crashout. That's madness. The height of irresponsibility and selfishness. How he can say that without blushing is beyond me, what a cretin.

J Mysterio wrote: »

Try as I might, I just can't understand the logic of creeps like Michael Gove.



What he is saying is the survival of the Tory party is more important than the evisveration of the UK in a No Deal crashout. That's madness. The height of irresponsibility and selfishness. How he can say that without blushing is beyond me, what a cretin.

Because the UK media give them a complete free pass on any scrutiny, so they can brazenly say stuff like that and most voters don't even realise the implications.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm considerably more nuanced than you might think I am..

You aren't though. :P

Anyone who criticises Corbyn is brainwashed by the right wing media. God forbid you can form an opinion by yourself without the aid of the telegraph.

Corbyn is right on more things than the tories when it comes to politics, but on Brexit he has been poor. He should have been calling for a second referendum a long time ago and making an argument to remain.

Their is no Brexit that won't hurt the people who he represents and supposedly fights for. You may such a stance is politically naive, but if somehow Brexit happens, then he has to take some blame for it.

Rjd2 wrote: »

You aren't though. :P

Anyone who criticises Corbyn is brainwashed by the right wing media. God forbid you can form an opinion by yourself without the aid of the telegraph.

Corbyn is right on more things than the tories when it comes to politics, but on Brexit he has been poor. He should have been calling for a second referendum a long time ago and making an argument to remain.

Their is no Brexit that won't hurt the people who he represents and supposedly fights for. You may such a stance is politically naive, but if somehow Brexit happens, then he has to take some blame for it.

In fact, had a committed Remainer been leader of Labour in June 2016, the current debacle wouldn't exist. Yet again, Corbyn was watery at best. His lack of commitment was a decisive factor in Leave's win.

Enzokk wrote: »

Spain is looking for reciprocal treatment for the citizens in the UK and British citizens in Spain.

https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1176011727856685056?s=20

So essentially it comes down to how the UK will treat Spanish citizens post Brexit, that will determine how their citizens are treated in Spain. Thank goodness for those immigrants from the UK that they have a compassionate and empathetic Home Office that will ensure they will only get the best of both worlds.

I wonder is it pure coincidence Spain come out with this, a few days after the UK Dept for Brexit posted a few tweets directly aimed at the damage a no deal would do to Spain - UK imports billions in cars, fruit and veg, also British tourists spend millions in Spain, so we can mess you up Spain.

Today Spain responds 100,000s retired UK ex-pats live here, who'll suddenly find their lives a lot harder, most will have to return home and their Spanish homes will be worthless. Your problem then UK

Patser wrote: »

I wonder is it pure coincidence Spain come out with this, a few days after the UK Dept for Brexit posted a few tweets directly aimed at the damage a no deal would do to Spain - UK imports billions in cars, fruit and veg, also British tourists spend millions in Spain, so we can mess you up Spain.

Today Spain responds 100,000s retired UK ex-pats live here, who'll suddenly find their lives a lot harder, most will have to return home and their Spanish homes will be worthless. Your problem then UK

Don't forget the added burden placed on the NHS of that many pensioners suddenly arriving home.


Also the beautiful irony will be that many likely voted for brexit yet when they return they wont be eligible for the NHS as you need to be a resident for 6 months'.