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The Sub 4 Support Thread
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Terrific, thanks! I'm not entirely sure I'll be 'fine' with any marathon plan, but here's hoping
Oh i think you will be more than fine. You've an amazing base built for a novice and you have a proven track record in structured training as well. You're the ideal candidate
When does the meno plan start? Is that the one you are leaning towards now? It'll be exciting when we all start our various training plans and getting into the nitty gritty of it :eek:0 -
Now that I've seen your training......no bother to you!Oh i think you will be more than fine. You've an amazing base built for a novice and you have a proven track record in structured training as well. You're the ideal candidate
Ha, thanks you two! It still feels like an impossible task to me, but I like the idea of it anyway so we'll start with that and see what happens! :pac:When does the meno plan start? Is that the one you are leaning towards now? It'll be exciting when we all start our various training plans and getting into the nitty gritty of it :eek:
Emmm... yes, it's what I'm currently leaning towards, but that could change the second I look at another one!
I do like how flexible it seems though, and I could opt for the lower end of things if it seems like too much, so that's appealing. It's 17 weeks apparently so I guess it would start a week after the Boards plan? I'd probably start at the same time though just for the craic of starting with everyone else, plus no harm to have a buffer week for holidays/life getting in the way. I actually really like the look of the grads intermediate plan that you're going to be using, but it specifically says it's not for first-timers so that rules it out for me! 0 -
Ha, thanks you two! It still feels like an impossible task to me, but I like the idea of it anyway so we'll start with that and see what happens! :pac:
Emmm... yes, it's what I'm currently leaning towards, but that could change the second I look at another one! I do like how flexible it seems though, and I could opt for the lower end of things if it seems like too much, so that's appealing. It's 17 weeks apparently so I guess it would start a week after the Boards plan? I'd probably start at the same time though just for the craic of starting with everyone else, plus no harm to have a buffer week for holidays/life getting in the way. I actually really like the look of the grads intermediate plan that you're going to be using, but it specifically says it's not for first-timers so that rules it out for me!
I wouldn't rule it out. You are not a typical novice. This time last year I had never done an interval, a hill sprint, a tempo or a progression run. It would have been beyond me to do the grads inter plan. You however have experience of most, if not all, types of training runs and a good base. If you like the look of it then try it.0 -
Ha, thanks you two! It still feels like an impossible task to me, but I like the idea of it anyway so we'll start with that and see what happens! :pac:
Emmm... yes, it's what I'm currently leaning towards, but that could change the second I look at another one! I do like how flexible it seems though, and I could opt for the lower end of things if it seems like too much, so that's appealing. It's 17 weeks apparently so I guess it would start a week after the Boards plan? I'd probably start at the same time though just for the craic of starting with everyone else, plus no harm to have a buffer week for holidays/life getting in the way. I actually really like the look of the grads intermediate plan that you're going to be using, but it specifically says it's not for first-timers so that rules it out for me!
I think the Grads intermediate would suit you eyrie and is probably a better fit than the Meno plan which is probably a bit aggressive in it's structure and workouts for most here. I'll probably get crucified for saying that as it has got a lot of people on this forum success in the past but just looking at it from what I think would suit you and where you are right now, I think the grads plan would be better and would nudge you away from the Meno plan this time around.0 -
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I think the Grads intermediate would suit you eyrie and is probably a better fit than the Meno plan which is probably a bit aggressive in it's structure and workouts for most here. I'll probably get crucified for saying that as it has got a lot of people on this forum success in the past but just looking at it from what I think would suit you and where you are right now, I think the grads plan would be better and would nudge you away from the Meno plan this time around.
Ah here, there will be no crucifixions around here. This is a sub-4 thread!
I am not familiar with this grads intermediate school plan, but remember the meno plan was a grads plan too in its day, put together by someone with plenty of experience of advising novices and recent novices. If it’s more aggressive than other plans perhaps that’s a good thing for some runners, provided they’re up for it. The Faster Road Running plans are certainly aggressive too. Horses for courses.0 -
Ah here, there will be no crucifixions around here. This is a sub-4 thread!
I am not familiar with this grads intermediate school plan, but remember the meno plan was a grads plan too in its day, put together by someone with plenty of experience of advising novices and recent novices. If it’s more aggressive than other plans perhaps that’s a good thing for some runners, provided they’re up for it. The Faster Road Running plans are certainly aggressive too. Horses for courses.
I'm not taking a shot at the plan by any means. It just my opinion based following eyries training since she started her log and I'd have concerns about the mileage and intensity progression of the Meno plan from where she is. There's a huge amount of MP miles in the Meno Plan such as mid-week medium long runs up to 14m @MP and 20 and 22m long runs with big workouts built in. I don't see it as a linear progression for eyrie right now as I would feel the jump in both mileage and intensity is too large. I also don't see the plan as 4 hour approriate as the duration of the workouts would exceed the stimulus required for a good workout. The distances of the workouts don't match up well with sub-4 ability levels; they would be far in excess of that. I would say the same of P+D 55 plan.
The grads plan is much more ability friendly as time dictates the duration of workouts and how much you run and would have a better progression for eyrie right now. It ties in nicely with how much running eyrie does right now and would still be a nice step up but not complete overload like the Meno plan would be imo. It's got a nice mix of tempos, steady states and cumulative fatigue built in and I think it would be a much better fit in this sceanario.0 -
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Where is this grads plan anyway, for future reference?
Here you go:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8/htmlview#gid=9507993310 -
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That’s a good looking plan by a very experienced coach. I see by plugging in my own numbers that ‘tempo’ is in and around MP and there’s plenty of it towards the second half of the plan which is good. Like the long runs with progression/variation too. Nothing not to like there at all, looks like a good schedule to me.
Having done both meno and P&D55, I’d say the latter is a good deal harder, by the way, from experience. Never felt as fit after or during a cycle as then, and still have my 10 mile PB from that period. But overkill for sure for sub-4, and personally I found it a bit... boring.
Certainly take the point about familiarity with eyrie’s training, although from what I can see she seems to be getting on well with the Pfitzinger approach. The huge advantage of Grad plan is having the coach himself relatively accessible (although that has probably changed irrevocably). 0 -
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I got some stellar course specific advice last year from a Dublin veteran, a 2:32 marathoner.
Basically, even splits are a bad idea.
The course is set up for a negative split, the Chapelizod hill for instance if ran too hard will end your race and you won't know about it for two hours.
He slows to almost walking up it.
I took all that on board and got a custom pace band.
I ran at about 4:12 pace until about mile 6 and slowly picked it up. 4 hour pacers were 2km ahead, I didn't catch them until Milltown.
I know for sure if I ran with them from the gun I would have ran about a 4:10 at best.
Could you say a little more on how you pulled this off and how you judged how to pick things up? I've never felt too much of a need to be always parallel to pacers, well, not for a while and found that tends to work, but I'm untested in trying to catch up on the 4 hour lads. I'll have to read the map a little more as geography goes over my head. So much for being a Dub. Conscious of Murph's advice earlier on too.
On the meno or grads intermediate, having done the latter twice I can say it'll equip anyone to be well-prepared on the day. Count on spot or two of tiredness doing it, but it's certainly one I'll go back to again, maybe for Conn 2019. I think of the tempo spins helped for Conn this year. At this stage, I'm not too fixated on sub-4 (as an outcome, we'll see, as a potential goal - yes) as I think that's up to me more so than a specific plan...it's only May.Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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I wouldn't rule it out. You are not a typical novice. This time last year I had never done an interval, a hill sprint, a tempo or a progression run. It would have been beyond me to do the grads inter plan. You however have experience of most, if not all, types of training runs and a good base. If you like the look of it then try it.
I agree with this. Eyrie, I think you're in a different planet altogether to what i was this time last year both in terms of overall mileage AND structured training (incorporating sessions etc). I can't see the Grads problem posing any issues to you. For what it's worth it also says not to attempt it without doing the base plan first and i haven't done the base plan but i feel i have a solid base so i am being arrogant enough to ignore that advice :cool:
(And i suppose i'm being a little selfish cos i'd love to see a few of us following the same plan so we can share our experiences/tips as we go on) 0 -
Just signed up for Dublin Marathon. Saw a facebook post saying only 6000 places.
Seriously though I know a lot of people missed out last year for leaving it too late to enter.
Journey to sub 4 starts now I suppose!
Yay, well done on biting the bullet! And by the way i'm loving this thread so far - thanks for starting it up! It's already a great resource of information and it's brilliant to see some experienced sub-4 (and beyond) runners popping in too
I'm not even sure i'll be targeting sub-4 in Dublin yet, it may be a case that i'll be more conservative but i hope not to be too far off and either way i think this thread will be a huge support to anyone looking to improve on previous efforts or getting closer to the 4 hour mark 0 -
That’s a good looking plan by a very experienced coach. I see by plugging in my own numbers that ‘tempo’ is in and around MP and there’s plenty of it towards the second half of the plan which is good. Like the long runs with progression/variation too. Nothing not to like there at all, looks like a good schedule to me.
Having done both meno and P&D55, I’d say the latter is a good deal harder, by the way, from experience. Never felt as fit after or during a cycle as then, and still have my 10 mile PB from that period. But overkill for sure for sub-4, and personally I found it a bit... boring.
Certainly take the point about familiarity with eyrie’s training, although from what I can see she seems to be getting on well with the Pfitzinger approach. The huge advantage of Grad plan is having the coach himself relatively accessible (although that has probably changed irrevocably).
I just did some calculations out of interest after reading your post earlier on... If i ran a marathon at the very slowest end of my current Tempo pace i'd run it in 3:4x.... Now, i know i don't have the speed endurance to do that right now (i'm more thinking my Easy Tempo - Moderate pace) but it's interesting none the less to think that maybe with 2-3 more marathon cycles and a build of miles, who knows :cool:0 -
The Black Oil wrote: »Could you say a little more on how you pulled this off and how you judged how to pick things up? I've never felt too much of a need to be always parallel to pacers, well, not for a while and found that tends to work, but I'm untested in trying to catch up on the 4 hour lads. I'll have to read the map a little more as geography goes over my head. So much for being a Dub. Conscious of Murph's advice earlier on too.
My paceband was vital. It focused on even effort rather than even pace, I set it up for a slight negative split with a downhill limiter. I wasn't a slave to it as such, although my milestone splits were bang on or close to bang on I did feel the need to sway slightly from it here and there.
I got it from here. It's an excellent service, unlike generic pacebands it fully takes the course into account and you can tailor it as you wish. I set it up the way I did based on the advice I got about taking the first half really easily.
Paces were as follows..
9:48
9:19
9:36
8:59
9:55
9:51
9:08
8:40
8:44
8:36
9:03
8:49
9:11
9:31
8:54
8:43
8:53
8:41
8:46
8:44
9:01
9:20
8:49
8:50
8:57
9:16
8:50
3:58:00
Fueling plan was a gel before the gun and every 30 mins.
This obviously all assumes you've ran a ton of MP sessions at 4hr pace, have tapered well, have carb loaded well up until Friday and rested well on Sat.0 -
I think the Grads intermediate would suit you eyrie and is probably a better fit than the Meno plan which is probably a bit aggressive in it's structure and workouts for most here. I'll probably get crucified for saying that as it has got a lot of people on this forum success in the past but just looking at it from what I think would suit you and where you are right now, I think the grads plan would be better and would nudge you away from the Meno plan this time around.Having done both meno and P&D55, I’d say the latter is a good deal harder, by the way, from experience. Never felt as fit after or during a cycle as then, and still have my 10 mile PB from that period. But overkill for sure for sub-4, and personally I found it a bit... boring.
Certainly take the point about familiarity with eyrie’s training, although from what I can see she seems to be getting on well with the Pfitzinger approach. The huge advantage of Grad plan is having the coach himself relatively accessible (although that has probably changed irrevocably).
Thanks for the inputs both, it's much appreciated. Lots to think about.
My instinct would have steered me towards the grads plan, which looks more like a logical next step for me. I only discounted it because of the instruction about it not being suitable for a first-timer. And yet the meno plan looks tougher, so no reason why it should be more suitable. If I followed meno I would certainly be modifying a bit (I've no intention of attempting a 22 mile long run). But I'll have more of a think about the grads plan again too. A max long run that would be well less than 20 miles (for me, based on my paces) makes me nervous. I know the arguments for it, and logically it makes sense, but never having run the distance I don't have the confidence of knowing I've done it before, which 'grads' would have.
Thanks for the advice 0 -
Thanks for the inputs both, it's much appreciated. Lots to think about.
My instinct would have steered me towards the grads plan, which looks more like a logical next step for me. I only discounted it because of the instruction about it not being suitable for a first-timer. And yet the meno plan looks tougher, so no reason why it should be more suitable. If I followed meno I would certainly be modifying a bit (I've no intention of attempting a 22 mile long run). But I'll have more of a think about the grads plan again too. A max long run that would be well less than 20 miles (for me, based on my paces) makes me nervous. I know the arguments for it, and logically it makes sense, but never having run the distance I don't have the confidence of knowing I've done it before, which 'grads' would have.
Thanks for the advice
I understand your concerns Eyrie and ultimately you need to have confidence in the plan you choose so we can all advise you as much as we like but it's your decision.
But i just wanted to make a point that helped me to decide. As a 'grad' i obviously have run the distance but even at that a long run of max 16m was making me a little bit nervous until someone made the subtle point that ultra runners never train anywhere near the distance - you look at Ultrawoman training for a 24 hour event and she's running phenomenal jaw dropping mileage but it's still no where near what she will do on the day/night! Cumulative fatigue is your friend in training for endurance events.0 -
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