Mr. Guappa wrote: » Delighted to find this thread. I've signed up for DCM this year, my first marathon. 4:00 is the arbitrary target at this stage, but I'll adjust if it's looking unrealistic closer to the date. As a guide, I ran the Dungarvan 10 mile in 1:23 back in Feb, and same time last week on a very hilly Cobh 10 mile course. Running a HM in July, and from there all eyes on Dublin.
Kellygirl wrote: » Great times for both those 10 milers - especially hilly Cobh. Are you joining the DCM Novices thread? It’s a sticky at the top of this forum.
Murph_D wrote: » For what it’s worth, I did 4:02 in first marathon (2012) using one of the Higdon Novice plans. Had an 86-min 10 mile in the run-up but sub-4 was always going to be a stretch with the low mileage I was on - only around 25 miles a week. The plan had no speed or tempo, just the odd few miles at MP. A classic ‘get you around’ plan. The following year, the meno plan was introduced as he was mentoring the 2012 graduates. I ran 3:47 in 2013 off that - a good mixture of speed, tempo, long, easy. And lots of advice about how to run them. I found it excellent, doing it at about 35-40 miles per week. Used it twice more, in fact, getting down to 3:29 by Cork 2015. The key was not the day-to-day details of the plan itself, but rather its overall scope and structure: increased mileage, challenging sessions, long runs with added challenges (in and around MP, variable pace, etc). This all helps with learning to push yourself a little harder, run with discomfort, confidence - all those things you need to break through arbitrary barriers such as sub-4, sub-3:45, sub-3:30 etc. Some of it is mental, but the majority is just doing the work diligently, running at the right paces so your body makes the adaptations you need. My old log at https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057009350 documents that first sub-4 training and marathon, if it’s of any interest to anyone. Best of luck to anyone attempting. I’ve no doubt that almost anyone can do it with a bit of discipline, and of course you have to make the start line - sometimes the hardest challenge of all, especially earlier in your running career.
eyrie wrote: » This is really interesting and helpful, thanks. I will be reading through your old log for info! I'm wondering though, what your thoughts would be on the Meno plan for a first-time marathoner? I'm aware that it was (I think?) created for the grads not for first timers. I've never run a marathon but have been running consistently for a year or so, and most of the beginner plans I've seen would be a step back from where I am now, at least initially. So I'm looking at others, but I'm afraid of doing anything that would be overly demanding. The meno plan looks flexible so I'm intrigued, but still wondering if it's too much of a stretch for a first attempt.
Murph_D wrote: » I think it would be OK as long as you have the base mileage recommended (can’t remember but I think it was at least 30 miles per week?) You can always dial it back - as I said above I targeted 90% of the stated weekly mileage first time out as I didn’t have a great base going in. But having said that, first time out there’s a lot to be said for a group approach and if you are not in a club group preparing for Dublin, the novice plan here (the ‘boards’ plan) should have plenty of structure And you would have the advantage of sharing the experience with a big group of people which can be very motivating. Just choose a challenging target, based on your best potential time predicted by races you’ve done. But if you’re going it alone, I’d say yes, you could use it, it’s not complicated and the sessions are all manageable (mostly - we all fail a few sessions during a cycle). Assuming you are already acquainted with speedwork, tempos, etc. (although having said that, I wasn’t, so maybe not essential!) Edit - boards plan has less speed/tempo than I realised, apologies - but possibly better for debut marathon depending on experience. I’d say if you’re not doing speed/tempo workouts already, perhaps best to stick to an endurance plan like ‘boards’ for debut?
RayCun wrote: » Seanin, did you get the testing and plan in TCD? That looks familiar, and I have to say, that schedule is pretty tough, I managed something like it for a few months before breaking down.
eyrie wrote: » Thanks, plenty of food for thought there. I have been doing speed and tempo workouts for a while already (following a few different plans in turn, currently P&L 10k plan from Faster Road Racing), so I'm reluctant to stop all of that and cut the mileage back. That said I know marathon training will ultimately mean a huge ramp up in other ways (long run distance primarily) so I don't want to bite off more than I can chew and risk injury. I hope to participate in the novices thread whatever plan I end up following!
Murph_D wrote: » Ah - if you're used to P&L you'll be fine with the meno plan, or even P&D, which is very similar to P&L, naturally. The meno plan is more flexible which can be very attractive.
eyrie wrote: » Terrific, thanks! I'm not entirely sure I'll be 'fine' with any marathon plan, but here's hoping
skyblue46 wrote: » Now that I've seen your training......no bother to you!
ariana` wrote: » Oh i think you will be more than fine. You've an amazing base built for a novice and you have a proven track record in structured training as well. You're the ideal candidate
ariana` wrote: » When does the meno plan start? Is that the one you are leaning towards now? It'll be exciting when we all start our various training plans and getting into the nitty gritty of it :eek:
eyrie wrote: » Ha, thanks you two! It still feels like an impossible task to me, but I like the idea of it anyway so we'll start with that and see what happens! :pac: Emmm... yes, it's what I'm currently leaning towards, but that could change the second I look at another one! I do like how flexible it seems though, and I could opt for the lower end of things if it seems like too much, so that's appealing. It's 17 weeks apparently so I guess it would start a week after the Boards plan? I'd probably start at the same time though just for the craic of starting with everyone else, plus no harm to have a buffer week for holidays/life getting in the way. I actually really like the look of the grads intermediate plan that you're going to be using, but it specifically says it's not for first-timers so that rules it out for me!
Safiri wrote: » I think the Grads intermediate would suit you eyrie and is probably a better fit than the Meno plan which is probably a bit aggressive in it's structure and workouts for most here. I'll probably get crucified for saying that as it has got a lot of people on this forum success in the past but just looking at it from what I think would suit you and where you are right now, I think the grads plan would be better and would nudge you away from the Meno plan this time around.
Murph_D wrote: » Ah here, there will be no crucifixions around here. This is a sub-4 thread! I am not familiar with this grads intermediate school plan, but remember the meno plan was a grads plan too in its day, put together by someone with plenty of experience of advising novices and recent novices. If it’s more aggressive than other plans perhaps that’s a good thing for some runners, provided they’re up for it. The Faster Road Running plans are certainly aggressive too. Horses for courses.
Murph_D wrote: » Where is this grads plan anyway, for future reference?
Safiri wrote: » Here you go:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8/htmlview#gid=950799331
Lazare wrote: » I got some stellar course specific advice last year from a Dublin veteran, a 2:32 marathoner. Basically, even splits are a bad idea. The course is set up for a negative split, the Chapelizod hill for instance if ran too hard will end your race and you won't know about it for two hours. He slows to almost walking up it. I took all that on board and got a custom pace band. I ran at about 4:12 pace until about mile 6 and slowly picked it up. 4 hour pacers were 2km ahead, I didn't catch them until Milltown. I know for sure if I ran with them from the gun I would have ran about a 4:10 at best.
skyblue46 wrote: » I wouldn't rule it out. You are not a typical novice. This time last year I had never done an interval, a hill sprint, a tempo or a progression run. It would have been beyond me to do the grads inter plan. You however have experience of most, if not all, types of training runs and a good base. If you like the look of it then try it.
ewc78 wrote: » Just signed up for Dublin Marathon. Saw a facebook post saying only 6000 places. Seriously though I know a lot of people missed out last year for leaving it too late to enter. Journey to sub 4 starts now I suppose!
Murph_D wrote: » That’s a good looking plan by a very experienced coach. I see by plugging in my own numbers that ‘tempo’ is in and around MP and there’s plenty of it towards the second half of the plan which is good. Like the long runs with progression/variation too. Nothing not to like there at all, looks like a good schedule to me. Having done both meno and P&D55, I’d say the latter is a good deal harder, by the way, from experience. Never felt as fit after or during a cycle as then, and still have my 10 mile PB from that period. But overkill for sure for sub-4, and personally I found it a bit... boring. Certainly take the point about familiarity with eyrie’s training, although from what I can see she seems to be getting on well with the Pfitzinger approach. The huge advantage of Grad plan is having the coach himself relatively accessible (although that has probably changed irrevocably).
The Black Oil wrote: » Could you say a little more on how you pulled this off and how you judged how to pick things up? I've never felt too much of a need to be always parallel to pacers, well, not for a while and found that tends to work, but I'm untested in trying to catch up on the 4 hour lads. I'll have to read the map a little more as geography goes over my head. So much for being a Dub. Conscious of Murph's advice earlier on too.
Murph_D wrote: » Having done both meno and P&D55, I’d say the latter is a good deal harder, by the way, from experience. Never felt as fit after or during a cycle as then, and still have my 10 mile PB from that period. But overkill for sure for sub-4, and personally I found it a bit... boring. Certainly take the point about familiarity with eyrie’s training, although from what I can see she seems to be getting on well with the Pfitzinger approach. The huge advantage of Grad plan is having the coach himself relatively accessible (although that has probably changed irrevocably).
eyrie wrote: » Thanks for the inputs both, it's much appreciated. Lots to think about. My instinct would have steered me towards the grads plan, which looks more like a logical next step for me. I only discounted it because of the instruction about it not being suitable for a first-timer. And yet the meno plan looks tougher, so no reason why it should be more suitable. If I followed meno I would certainly be modifying a bit (I've no intention of attempting a 22 mile long run). But I'll have more of a think about the grads plan again too. A max long run that would be well less than 20 miles (for me, based on my paces) makes me nervous. I know the arguments for it, and logically it makes sense, but never having run the distance I don't have the confidence of knowing I've done it before, which 'grads' would have. Thanks for the advice
