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No public enquiry in Pat Finucane Murder

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    #92
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Basically if you're okay with this inquiry going ahead "because the IRA murdered too" what you're really saying is that the British government are on the same footing as terrorists.


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    #93
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,406 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    end of the road wrote: »
    he wasn't a republican and jerry wasn't in the ira, until such a case is brought to court to prove otherwise with sufficient evidence.

    And going by your logic the British were never involved in the murder of Pat Finnucane.


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    #94
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Samsonsmasher wrote: »
    In a war anyone who is an enemy or collaborates with the enemy has to expect death.
    It didn't matter if a soldier is in uniform on armed patrol on the Falls Road or having pints in a pub in Birmingham.
    It didn't matter if a republican was sitting at home watching TV with his kids or armed with a gun attacking an RUC station.
    Pat Finucane was getting republicans off scot free who were going back to war as soon as they came out of prison.
    Too bad




    he was getting them off scot free because they were either innocent of the charges, there was insufficient evidence, or the investigations were crap.
    either way, he did nothing wrong what soever apart from his job.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #95
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,594 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    There seems to be two issues here..

    This is simple: to loyalist death squads, Pat was a legitimate target

    Same as victims of the IRA were on the republican side.

    Both sides can justify the killings the same way both sides can argue against them..

    It was a killing spree up North. A war!!

    Second issue: Pat’s killing saw BA collude with loyalists to kill Pat..


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    #96
    Normal One
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭Normal One


    walshb wrote: »
    There seems to be two issues here..

    This is simple: to loyalist death squads, Pat was a legitimate target

    Same as victims of the IRA were on the republican side.

    Both sides can justify the killings the same way both sides can argue against them..

    It was a killing spree up North. A war!!

    Second issue: Pat’s killing saw BA collude with loyalists to kill Pat..

    Pat Finucane had also defended loyalist paramilitary accused.


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    #97
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    And going by your logic the British were never involved in the murder of Pat Finnucane.


    no as we know the british government were involved in the murder among many other murders and acts.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #98
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,406 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    end of the road wrote: »
    no as we know the british government were involved in the murder among many other murders and acts.

    Can you link me to the court case where the British government were found guilty of being complicit in the murder of Pat Finnucane? If not then "until such a case is brought to court to prove otherwise with sufficient evidence" there is no proof to your claim!

    You dont get to pick and choose guilt/innocence based in your own beliefs, if you insist on a court case/evidence of guilt for one you must insist on the same for all.

    Anything else is just hypocrisy.


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    #99
    Normal One
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭Normal One


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Can you link me to the court case where the British government were found guilty of being complicit in the murder of Pat Finnucane? If not then "until such a case is brought to court to prove otherwise with sufficient evidence" there is no proof to your claim!

    You dont get to pick and choose guilt/innocence based in your own beliefs, if you insist on a court case/evidence of guilt for one you must insist on the same for all.

    Anything else is just hypocrisy.

    I know that citing a British prime minister is dodgy at the best of times, but here goes:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/dec/12/david-cameron-pat-finucane-murder


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    #100
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    The British government failed to hold up their end of the bargain, again.

    On a separate note, it suits all sides not to shine a spotlight on such past heinous activities. It of course, does nothing for the victims and their families, whether they be victims of Republicans, Loyalists, police or army.

    A Truth and Reconciliation Commission should have been done, not try and sweep things under the carpet.


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    #101
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,594 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Normal One wrote: »
    Pat Finucane had also defended loyalist paramilitary accused.

    I know this..

    Tell it to the loyalists who murdered him.

    To them he was a legitimate target.

    Do you think they gave a flying fook that he also defended loyalists?

    To them, he was defending known republicans and IRA members.. that was the trigger to them to put him as a legitimate target.

    The exact same occurred for the IRA. There were targets for them that many could argue were legitimate and many could argue were not legitimate.


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    #102
    The_Fitz
    Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭The_Fitz


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Can you link me to the court case where the British government were found guilty of being complicit in the murder of Pat Finnucane? If not then "until such a case is brought to court to prove otherwise with sufficient evidence" there is no proof to your claim!

    You dont get to pick and choose guilt/innocence based in your own beliefs, if you insist on a court case/evidence of guilt for one you must insist on the same for all.

    Anything else is just hypocrisy.

    I don't think it's really up for debate that the British state fingered Pat Finucane, provided the weapon, and had one of their agents carry out the execution.

    What this inquiry would hopefully have found, is just how high up the orders came. The British held themselves above what they called terrorists, the least they can do is allow a full investigation to show what really happened here.


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    #103
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Can you link me to the court case where the British government were found guilty of being complicit in the murder of Pat Finnucane? If not then "until such a case is brought to court to prove otherwise with sufficient evidence" there is no proof to your claim!

    You dont get to pick and choose guilt/innocence based in your own beliefs, if you insist on a court case/evidence of guilt for one you must insist on the same for all.

    Anything else is just hypocrisy.


    the british refuse to hold a public enquirey into the murder, they white washed enquiries in relation to bloody sunday and they have admitted collusion in relation to this and other murders, an article showing one example has been posted a couple of posts up.
    i am satisfied that britain has unintentionally provided sufficient evidence to show it's guilt, nothing has been provided to show adams was in the IRA.
    cards on the table, i couldn't care a less whether our boy was in the IRA or not, he was a brilliant politician and is a hero for his work in the peace process, and that wouldn't change if it turned out he had been a member.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #104
    KarlMarks
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭KarlMarks


    My message was deleted without warning but it doesn't matter who or what Pat represnted as a solicitor. If a member of the judiciary was murdered in Wales, Scotland or the Falkland islands then there would be an enquiry into what happened when he was murdered. Justice is only for when you can be there to talk about it. RIP


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    #105
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    end of the road wrote: »
    the british refuse to hold a public enquirey into the murder, they white washed enquiries in relation to bloody sunday and they have admitted collusion in relation to this and other murders, an article showing one example has been posted a couple of posts up.
    i am satisfied that britain has unintentionally provided sufficient evidence to show it's guilt, nothing has been provided to show adams was in the IRA.
    cards on the table, i couldn't care a less whether our boy was in the IRA or not, he was a brilliant politician and is a hero for his work in the peace process, and that wouldn't change if it turned out he had been a member.

    ....and what if you found a politician had organised the sectarian murder of civlans in La Mon House, targeted because it was used predominantly by Protestants? Would you still say it would change nothing?


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    #106
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    KarlMarks wrote: »
    My message was deleted without warning but it doesn't matter who or what Pat represnted as a solicitor. If a member of the judiciary was murdered in Wales, Scotland or the Falkland islands then there would be an enquiry into what happened when he was murdered. Justice is only for when you can be there to talk about it. RIP

    Many solicitors and judges have been murdered and I can’t remember a public enquiry for any of them. Would you care to give us some examples?


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    #107
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    downcow wrote: »
    Absolutely the Brits were involved in the Patsy Gillespie killing. One of their big agents 'the fisherman' was at the heart of arranging that attack.

    This is truly bizarre. Are you saying the British colluded with the Provos to blow up their own soldiers?


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    #108
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    downcow wrote: »
    Many solicitors and judges have been murdered and I can’t remember a public enquiry for any of them. Would you care to give us some examples?

    Usually when some one is murdered there is a clear assailant and no need for an inquiry. Good example is https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/murdered-cold-blood-prestons-judge-william-openshaw-was-killed-man-he-sent-prison-231773%3famp

    Here a person who the judge previously sent to jail murdered him.

    It is so disappointing that some posters have written Mr Finucanes murder off as part and parcel of the conflict. In any society the most important thing in the legal system is the fact that people are innocent until proven guilty. Mr Finucane represent both natiolist and loyalist was their human right. If legal practicioners believes that by providing representation will put their or their families lives in danger could mean the disintegration of natural justice.

    There were allegations of membership but if so it could have been dealt with legally. The fact that the government obviously colluded with paramilitaries is one of the most heinous actions in the troubles.

    In international humanitarian law or the law of armed conflict, it is one of the most serious breaches to execute a civilian knowingly. Even worse if sanctioned by national powers. I know that some would argue that the troubles were not an armed conflict as it was against terrorists, but international law is arguably against that.. UN have recognised national liberation armies as combatants dependent on structure, actions etc.
    But if civilian lawyers are executed it forces worse retribution. Interesting article here scholarship.law.duke.edu › cgiPDF
    Reappraising the Legal Status of IRA Prisoners at the Height of the ...

    With regards an inquiry, transitional justice has helped but if no one noteworthy is found at fault then it can stir up hostilities. Also if some senior government officials were found guilty then it possibly could lead. To serious charges up to and including war crimes (theoretically).


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    #109
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,860 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    ....and what if you found a politician had organised the sectarian murder of civlans in La Mon House, targeted because it was used predominantly by Protestants? Would you still say it would change nothing?
    downcow wrote: »
    Many solicitors and judges have been murdered and I can’t remember a public enquiry for any of them. Would you care to give us some examples?

    You have to establish 'grounds' for a public inquiry.
    Have 'public inquiries' been refused in these cases? If so, you need to look to the British court system and point the finger there. The Finucane's have been campaigning for years for this, as the Bloody Sunday victims etc were too.

    As you know the British are deaf to the pursuit of justice and have to be dragged to account.


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    #110
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    This is truly bizarre. Are you saying the British colluded with the Provos to blow up their own soldiers?

    You are saying agents were involved in the finucane killing. I am assuring you that an agent in the pay of the british security services planned the Gillespie killing. Does that shock you?


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    #111
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    joeguevara wrote: »
    Usually when some one is murdered there is a clear assailant and no need for an inquiry. Good example is https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/murdered-cold-blood-prestons-judge-william-openshaw-was-killed-man-he-sent-prison-231773%3famp

    Here a person who the judge previously sent to jail murdered him.

    It is so disappointing that some posters have written Mr Finucanes murder off as part and parcel of the conflict. In any society the most important thing in the legal system is the fact that people are innocent until proven guilty. Mr Finucane represent both natiolist and loyalist was their human right. If legal practicioners believes that by providing representation will put their or their families lives in danger could mean the disintegration of natural justice.

    There were allegations of membership but if so it could have been dealt with legally. The fact that the government obviously colluded with paramilitaries is one of the most heinous actions in the troubles.

    In international humanitarian law or the law of armed conflict, it is one of the most serious breaches to execute a civilian knowingly. Even worse if sanctioned by national powers. I know that some would argue that the troubles were not an armed conflict as it was against terrorists, but international law is arguably against that.. UN have recognised national liberation armies as combatants dependent on structure, actions etc.
    But if civilian lawyers are executed it forces worse retribution. Interesting article here scholarship.law.duke.edu › cgiPDF
    Reappraising the Legal Status of IRA Prisoners at the Height of the ...

    With regards an inquiry, transitional justice has helped but if no one noteworthy is found at fault then it can stir up hostilities. Also if some senior government officials were found guilty then it possibly could lead. To serious charges up to and including war crimes (theoretically).

    Edgar Graham


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    #112
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,860 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Edwin Graham

    His name was 'Edgar' Graham.


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    #113
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    This innocent man just tried to run a business

    https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/08/21/IRA-claims-responsibility-for-contractors-murder/2625493444800/



    These innocent men were working to feed their families

    https://apnews.com/article/f2de876145c0ea1144a800da4e623d2b



    This 6 month old baby never even got to have a life

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/baby-killed-by-ira-remembered-30-years-on-38631631.html



    Or how about a chef who was kidnapped and forced to drive a bomb to a checkpoint and was blown up by the IRA?

    https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/10/24/news/-barbaric-and-cowardly-coshquin-human-bombing-remembered-30-years-on-2108550/



    I'm not saying Pat Finnucane deserved to die just because of the work he did, his murder was a terrible thing, but to see the usual.IRA supporters in here wringing their hands over his death when their own heroes killed innocent people just because of the work they did is hypocrisy to say the least.

    All tragic uncalled for deaths too, no doubt about it, but I'm confused here, was any sovereign government implicated in colluding with the killers in those cases?

    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    His name was 'Edgar' Graham.

    He's already been corrected on that and skipped past it.


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    #114
    UDAWINNER
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭UDAWINNER


    downcow wrote: »
    Many solicitors and judges have been murdered and I can’t remember a public enquiry for any of them. Would you care to give us some examples?

    How many of these had reported state collusion involved in the murder. Would you agree with an enquiry if Finucane had been a loyalist, Arlene and her ilk would have put up a statue of him if this had been the case.


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    #115
    UDAWINNER
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭UDAWINNER


    McMurphy wrote: »
    All tragic uncalled for deaths too, no doubt about it, but I'm confused here, was any sovereign government implicated in colluding with the killers in those cases?




    He's already been corrected on that and skipped past it.
    That question does not not suit their agenda and won't be answered


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    #116
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,406 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    McMurphy wrote: »
    All tragic uncalled for deaths too, no doubt about it, but I'm confused here, was any sovereign government implicated in colluding with the killers in those cases?




    He's already been corrected on that and skipped past it.

    Implication does not equal guilt though, its implied that Gerry Adams was in the IRA and signed off on the murders of innocent people, does the implication make Adams guilty of those crimes?


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    #117
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Implication does not equal guilt though, its implied that Gerry Adams was in the IRA and signed off on the murders of innocent people, does the implication make Adams guilty of those crimes?

    Hence why a public inquiry is needed.

    It's been explained to you multiple times already how government collusion sets these type of killings apart from others, and warrants same, but if you want to keep your head buried in the sand, far be it from me to stop you doing so.


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    #118
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    For what it's worth, I think the murderers should be hunted down and imprisoned for life (if they're not already in prison), then the people who orchestrated & planned the murder should also be sought out and brought to justice. If there were 'bent" security personnel then obviously they too should have the same punishment as the toerag who actually pulled the trigger.

    Never understood why her was shot? For what reason was he singled out and killed? Yes I know he defended IRA killers, but then why make things worse by killing him too? Tit for tat? Or just pure hatred & ignorance, I don't know.


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    #119
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    For what it's worth, I think the murderers should be hunted down and imprisoned for life (if they're not already in prison), then the people who orchestrated & planned the murder should also be sought out and brought to justice. If there were 'bent" security personnel then obviously they too should have the same punishment as the toerag who actually pulled the trigger.

    Never understood why her was shot? For what reason was he singled out and killed? Yes I know he defended IRA killers, but then why make things worse by killing him too? Tit for tat? Or just pure hatred & ignorance, I don't know.

    Did he not defend loyalist paramilitary figures too, or am I misremembering?


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    #120
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    I don't know, but I do remember hearing that he'd defended some IRA people in court, hence the Loyalist mob then decided to target him? Ironic if he defended their lot too.


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    #121
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    Did he not defend loyalist paramilitary figures too, or am I misremembering?

    To answer my own question:

    "Mr Finucane, a 39-year-old solicitor who represented both republican and loyalist paramilitaries during the Troubles, was shot dead in his family home in north Belfast in February 1989."

    https://news.sky.com/story/pat-finucane-government-decides-against-public-inquiry-over-murder-of-belfast-solicitor-12147061


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