No public enquiry in Pat Finucane Murder

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

The gfa says ni is british until a majority of the people decide otherwise. When was that not the case?

Currently under UK jurisdiction, in a holding pattern, until there's a United Ireland runway to land on.

Nowhere in the GFA does it says 'NI is British'. In fact 'British' is mentioned in relation to British-Irish dynamics and the 'British Government' as a sort of third party to Ireland/NI.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Currently under UK jurisdiction, in a holding pattern, until there's a United Ireland runway to land on.

Nowhere in the GFA does it says 'NI is British'. In fact 'British' is mentioned in relation to British-Irish dynamics and the 'British Government' as a sort of third party to Ireland/NI.

You guys can rant all you like and employ as much wishful thinking as you like, it won’t change anything.

Here are the facts
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/born-northern-ireland-british-not-irish

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You guys can rant all you like and employ as much wishful thinking as you like, it won’t change anything.

Here are the facts
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/born-northern-ireland-british-not-irish

That doesn't put any part of Ireland in Britain.

A British court deciding something....:)

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

You guys can rant all you like and employ as much wishful thinking as you like, it won’t change anything.

Here are the facts
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/born-northern-ireland-british-not-irish

I couldn't care less what the British Government says, this is Ireland. The Chinese could invade and force everyone to speak Chinese, and eat chicken balls, but it'd still be Ireland.

end of the road

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That doesn't put any part of Ireland in Britain.

A British court deciding something....

not to mention the court is factually incorrect anyway.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Currently under UK jurisdiction, in a holding pattern, until there's a United Ireland runway to land on.

Nowhere in the GFA does it says 'NI is British'. In fact 'British' is mentioned in relation to British-Irish dynamics and the 'British Government' as a sort of third party to Ireland/NI.

There may never be a United Ireland runway. All of the indicators which would point towards a border poll are going in the wrong direction. The nationalist vote is stagnant at best, declining on some parameters. The Northern Irish identity is growing in strength.

end of the road

blanch152 wrote: »

There may never be a United Ireland runway. All of the indicators which would point towards a border poll are going in the wrong direction. The nationalist vote is stagnant at best, declining on some parameters. The Northern Irish identity is growing in strength.

they make no difference to a vote.
people can identify as being northern irish while in a UI.
the link with britain will end, it's a case of when not if.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

You are some crack. You didn’t feel the need to challenge the post I was replying to
“in fact they got everything they looked for bar a UI straight away, and it will be the people who will decide whether it happens or not, and not the british government which would have been the case had it not been for all of the issues coming to a head.
northern ireland is british in name only”

The prejudice is hanging out of you.

....and I simply stated the fact. The gfa says ni is british until a majority of the people decide otherwise. When was that not the case?

Which bit of mutual benefit wasn't clear, Downcow?

It is perfectly plausible for someone from a Nationalist persuasion to feel like they got everything they wanted from the GFA bar an immediate United Ireland without thinking that Unionists lost.

My issue isn't with anyone claiming victory from the GFA, its from your ridiculously insecure insistence that the other side lost. That's my entire point, the GFA was a win for us all. Perhaps your historical position of superiority makes it a difficult idea to countenance, but it was a mutually beneficial agreement, society in the North won.

There is a difference between saying, 'we won' and saying, 'you lost'....but you have plenty of form for your triumphalist nonsense, so I don't expect you to see it.

Christ, you're more excited about having the COVID-19 vaccine being rolled out before Ireland than you are to actually see it rolled out in general. Its a bit sad.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

There may never be a United Ireland runway. All of the indicators which would point towards a border poll are going in the wrong direction. The nationalist vote is stagnant at best, declining on some parameters. The Northern Irish identity is growing in strength.

That would depend on what way you look at things. The beauty of statistics and all that. If one wanted to put a different sheen on it, it could just as easily be pointed out that only recently we've had the first time Unionist parties don't make up a majority of seats in the North and SF polling at all time highs in Ireland.

I'd say we could all point at various numbers to support whatever preconceived notions we wish to hold on to, and sometimes the phrasing of a question can be more telling of the agenda of the person asking than the answer received is of the person answering.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Which bit of mutual benefit wasn't clear, Downcow?

It is perfectly plausible for someone from a Nationalist persuasion to feel like they got everything they wanted from the GFA bar an immediate United Ireland without thinking that Unionists lost.

My issue isn't with anyone claiming victory from the GFA, its from your ridiculously insecure insistence that the other side lost. That's my entire point, the GFA was a win for us all. Perhaps your historical position of superiority makes it a difficult idea to countenance, but it was a mutually beneficial agreement, society in the North won.

There is a difference between saying, 'we won' and saying, 'you lost'....but you have plenty of form for your triumphalist nonsense, so I don't expect you to see it.

Christ, you're more excited about having the COVID-19 vaccine being rolled out before Ireland than you are to actually see it rolled out in general. Its a bit sad.

Well said Fionn, particularly on the Covid thing. There are some around here anxious to turn it into a macabre competition for political oneupmanship.

Ireland2020

blanch152 wrote: »

There may never be a United Ireland runway. All of the indicators which would point towards a border poll are going in the wrong direction. The nationalist vote is stagnant at best, declining on some parameters. The Northern Irish identity is growing in strength.

Hahaha is that what your hoping for?

Well man you will be in for some shock.

SF running the show in a few years.. Instead of the opposition saying celebrations for the Black and Tans are not wanted you will have FG saying Republican celebrations are not wanted.

All thanks to Leo, the best leader of FG that SF ever had

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Which bit of mutual benefit wasn't clear, Downcow?

It is perfectly plausible for someone from a Nationalist persuasion to feel like they got everything they wanted from the GFA bar an immediate United Ireland without thinking that Unionists lost.

My issue isn't with anyone claiming victory from the GFA, its from your ridiculously insecure insistence that the other side lost. That's my entire point, the GFA was a win for us all. Perhaps your historical position of superiority makes it a difficult idea to countenance, but it was a mutually beneficial agreement, society in the North won.

There is a difference between saying, 'we won' and saying, 'you lost'....but you have plenty of form for your triumphalist nonsense, so I don't expect you to see it.

Christ, you're more excited about having the COVID-19 vaccine being rolled out before Ireland than you are to actually see it rolled out in general. Its a bit sad.

Fionn. Your problem is that you and your friends raise stuff as so-called evidence that my beloved country is a failure. Then when I dispel the issues you raise, you tell me I am sad for pointing out what is not true.
I didn’t raise the gfa and say that it means Roi controls NI, I didn’t raise nationality and say everyone in ni is Irish whether they like it or not, I didn’t raise the speed of receiving vaccine as evidence that ni was a failure, etc, etc.
No, you and your mates raised these things and I simply provided evidence that Roi has zero authority in ni, that I and my descendants are born british in ni, that we were first in the world with the vaccine, etc, etc.

So play your games of trying to suggest I am solely raising these things if you like. I guess that’s easier than admitting I am correct.
You know noise and numbers does not make your position correct

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Fionn. Your problem is that you and your friends raise stuff as so-called evidence that my beloved country is a failure. Then when I dispel the issues you raise, you tell me I am sad for pointing out what is not true.
I didn’t raise the gfa and say that it means Roi controls NI, I didn’t raise nationality and say everyone in ni is Irish whether they like it or not, I didn’t raise the speed of receiving vaccine as evidence that ni was a failure, etc, etc.
No, you and your mates raised these things and I simply provided evidence that Roi has zero authority in ni, that I and my descendants are born british in ni, that we were first in the world with the vaccine, etc, etc.

So play your games of trying to suggest I am solely raising these things if you like. I guess that’s easier than admitting I am correct.
You know noise and numbers does not make your position correct

Except as you're well aware, I've regularly disagreed with Francie for example on many of these issues, and as I'm sure he would confirm, have often argued with him on them. A brief run through my posting history would demonstrate that I particularly strongly opposed arguments that everyone in the North was Irish, so don't pull your, 'poor me, everyone is bullying me' victim complex with me.

I don't have any, 'mates' on here. I have my own nuanced views that don't fit in the generic hive mind box you try and paint as representative of all Republicanism. The North is my home too, Downcow, it doesn't just belong to Unionists, as much difficulty as you may have letting go of your historical position of total control.

Nowhere in your entire rant do you address the actual point I raised - your constant seige mentality and insistence on painting everything as whether, 'usuns' or 'themmuns' won.

If you're totally unable to see your triumphalist leanings when every time the GFA comes up, where you have to try and diminish it's significance to Nationalists (remember, more Nationalists voted for it than Unionists, and the internet is full of people like Bryson and his ilk lamenting it as a sell out), rather than accepting that it was a compromise that gave to vote sides, well maybe you should spend a little more introspective time rather than ranting time.

I'll say it again, the GFA was a tremendous win for all normal, right minded people on the island of Ireland and in Britain and you do it a great injustice by trying to paint it as a win for one side over the other.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Fionn. Your problem is that you and your friends raise stuff as so-called evidence that my beloved country is a failure. Then when I dispel the issues you raise, you tell me I am sad for pointing out what is not true.
I didn’t raise the gfa and say that it means Roi controls NI,

In order to try and win the debate, this is what you have to do (like others) lie about or misrepresent what posters are saying. NOBODY said ROI controls NI, they said and backed up how ROI is consulted on anything major in NI.

I didn’t raise nationality and say everyone in ni is Irish whether they like it or not,

If you are born on an island called Ireland you are Irish.

I didn’t raise the speed of receiving vaccine as evidence that ni was a failure, etc, etc.

Nobody I know did this either.



To add, anywhere that requires an internationally binding agreement between two countries to actually allow it to function (badly) is a failure on some level.

Otherwise it would like Scotland England Wales France Italy etc...run itself. NI can't, proved multiple times.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Except as you're well aware, I've regularly disagreed with Francie for example on many of these issues, and as I'm sure he would confirm, have often argued with him on them. A brief run through my posting history would demonstrate that I particularly strongly opposed arguments that everyone in the North was Irish, so don't pull your, 'poor me, everyone is bullying me' victim complex with me.

I don't have any, 'mates' on here. I have my own nuanced views that don't fit in the generic hive mind box you try and paint as representative of all Republicanism. The North is my home too, Downcow, it doesn't just belong to Unionists, as much difficulty as you may have letting go of your historical position of total control.

Nowhere in your entire rant do you address the actual point I raised - your constant seige mentality and insistence on painting everything as whether, 'usuns' or 'themmuns' won.

If you're totally unable to see your triumphalist leanings when every time the GFA comes up, where you have to try and diminish it's significance to Nationalists (remember, more Nationalists voted for it than Unionists, and the internet is full of people like Bryson and his ilk lamenting it as a sell out), rather than accepting that it was a compromise that gave to vote sides, well maybe you should spend a little more introspective time rather than ranting time.

I'll say it again, the GFA was a tremendous win for all normal, right minded people on the island of Ireland and in Britain and you do it a great injustice by trying to paint it as a win for one side over the other.

A lot of fair comments in that.
Yes it all becomes a bit of a blur on here and maybe I have grouped you with people you don’t fit with.

I accept your comments about me painting the gfa as a win/lose and no doubt that is.a reaction by me to republicans holding it up as some great stick to beat unionists with.

Tbh it’s I am a very soft unionist. Rather my passion is to building a Northern Ireland that as many as possible can buy into and feel ownership. You have heard me here consider a united island with two countries working in partnership like the four countries in UK. That’s a suggestion that would throw most unionists into blind panic. Of course my preference is uk both financially and culturally but I could be convinced otherwise, but what I won’t be convinced of is to give up my beloved NI - I expect in same way as not too many southerners would want their wee country absorbed into UK

So I regret using language and arguments that give you the impression I want unionists to own/control ni, nothing could be further from the truth.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In order to try and win the debate, this is what you have to do (like others) lie about or misrepresent what posters are saying. NOBODY said ROI controls NI, they said and backed up how ROI is consulted on anything major in NI.


If you are born on an island called Ireland you are Irish.


Nobody I know did this either.



To add, anywhere that requires an internationally binding agreement between two countries to actually allow it to function (badly) is a failure on some level.

Otherwise it would like Scotland England Wales France Italy etc...run itself. NI can't, proved multiple times.

Your three points in order

Yes they did

No they are not

Yes they did

I can provide court evidence for the middle one and track back and prove the other two if you wish

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Your three points in order

Yes they did

If somebody said it, it wasn't me. The GFA give the ROI a consultative role in NI. Your former SoS laid it out and a quick overview of the history shows that.

No they are not

We have been thrugh this one many times....we agree to disagree.

Yes they did

You have been using the pandemic as a macabre competition from the start.

I can provide court evidence for the middle one and track back and prove the other two if you wish

As pointed out, a British court finding on this is dubious for obvious reasons.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

A lot of fair comments in that.
Yes it all becomes a bit of a blur on here and maybe I have grouped you with people you don’t fit with.

I accept your comments about me painting the gfa as a win/lose and no doubt that is.a reaction by me to republicans holding it up as some great stick to beat unionists with.

Tbh it’s I am a very soft unionist. Rather my passion is to building a Northern Ireland that as many as possible can buy into and feel ownership. You have heard me here consider a united island with two countries working in partnership like the four countries in UK. That’s a suggestion that would throw most unionists into blind panic. Of course my preference is uk both financially and culturally but I could be convinced otherwise, but what I won’t be convinced of is to give up my beloved NI - I expect in same way as not too many southerners would want their wee country absorbed into UK

So I regret using language and arguments that give you the impression I want unionists to own/control ni, nothing could be further from the truth.

I'll acknowledge that I do see flashes of this side on occasion from you Downcow, though I've noticed it more on your discussion on the soccer team than politics. Perhaps if that mentality was stronger historically, during the period of Unionist control of the North, we'd have had a chance of making the place work for us all. You're fully entitled to aspire to continued membership of the Union, and fully entitled to wish for the continuation of NI, but that doesn't need to be wrapped up in what I must say often comes across to me as insecurity and a rush to put down anything Irish.

I'll also say that you're much easier to have a discussion with when I see those flashes than when you've got your combatative head on and can't see the wood for the trees. You and I will ultimately never have the same aspiration for the North, but at the end of the day, food on the table, a roof over your head and the relative peaceful stability we've had for the last twenty years is much more important than that.

To bring the discussion back on topic, things like the refusal of the British establishment to hold a public inquiry in cases like this are a potential factor which undermines support for the continuation of the Union among softer Nationalists and the non-aligned middle ground.

In the long term, I don't think the British establishment particularly give a damn about this, but at some point broader Unionism in the North is going to have to get past the naive, 'never never never' mentality and engage with these people in a constructive manner.

The demographics suggest that the entrenched hard Unionist majority is gone and to continue your union, at some point someone is going to need to start to think about convincing that very hefty middle ground of the continued benefits of remaining in the Union. The perception of a totally untrustworthy government who can't hold themselves to a higher standard than proscribed organisations doesn't help that at all.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

A lot of fair comments in that.
Yes it all becomes a bit of a blur on here and maybe I have grouped you with people you don’t fit with.

I accept your comments about me painting the gfa as a win/lose and no doubt that is.a reaction by me to republicans holding it up as some great stick to beat unionists with.

Tbh it’s I am a very soft unionist. Rather my passion is to building a Northern Ireland that as many as possible can buy into and feel ownership. You have heard me here consider a united island with two countries working in partnership like the four countries in UK. That’s a suggestion that would throw most unionists into blind panic. Of course my preference is uk both financially and culturally but I could be convinced otherwise, but what I won’t be convinced of is to give up my beloved NI - I expect in same way as not too many southerners would want their wee country absorbed into UK

So I regret using language and arguments that give you the impression I want unionists to own/control ni, nothing could be further from the truth.

You are the poster who said he couldn't guarantee to be peaceful if there was a UI democratically decided on.

Another pivot to try and appear as a moderate Unionist.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are the poster who said he couldn't guarantee to be peaceful if there was a UI democratically decided on.

Another pivot to try and appear as a moderate Unionist.

Oh Francie you do hold on tight to one sentence expressed (clumsily) by me a very long time ago
Now that is sad!

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'll acknowledge that I do see flashes of this side on occasion from you Downcow, though I've noticed it more on your discussion on the soccer team than politics. Perhaps if that mentality was stronger historically, during the period of Unionist control of the North, we'd have had a chance of making the place work for us all. You're fully entitled to aspire to continued membership of the Union, and fully entitled to wish for the continuation of NI, but that doesn't need to be wrapped up in what I must say often comes across to me as insecurity and a rush to put down anything Irish.

I'll also say that you're much easier to have a discussion with when I see those flashes than when you've got your combatative head on and can't see the wood for the trees. You and I will ultimately never have the same aspiration for the North, but at the end of the day, food on the table, a roof over your head and the relative peaceful stability we've had for the last twenty years is much more important than that.

To bring the discussion back on topic, things like the refusal of the British establishment to hold a public inquiry in cases like this are a potential factor which undermines support for the continuation of the Union among softer Nationalists and the non-aligned middle ground.

In the long term, I don't think the British establishment particularly give a damn about this, but at some point broader Unionism in the North is going to have to get past the naive, 'never never never' mentality and engage with these people in a constructive manner.

The demographics suggest that the entrenched hard Unionist majority is gone and to continue your union, at some point someone is going to need to start to think about convincing that very hefty middle ground of the continued benefits of remaining in the Union. The perception of a totally untrustworthy government who can't hold themselves to a higher standard than proscribed organisations doesn't help that at all.

Now I don’t agree with so much of that post.
Not sure what part of Down you are from but a guy I know well has an article in the Mourne observer this week about how our local MP continues to name his office after two IRA terrorists, colleagues of the ira members who murdered this mans father. This is much more pressing in my view than a murder that took place 30 years ago. What would you think if a sitting unionist MP named his office after the killers of pat finucane?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Now I don’t agree with so much of that post.
Not sure what part of Down you are from but a guy I know well has an article in the Mourne observer this week about how our local MP continues to name his office after two IRA terrorists, colleagues of the ira members who murdered this mans father. This is much more pressing in my view than a murder that took place 30 years ago. What would you think if a sitting unionist MP named his office after the killers of pat finucane?

Back to square one with the whataboutery, Downcow. I'm not from Down, I've regularly stated that I'm from Fermanagh. You say you disagree, and then go on to complain about something totally unrelated without actually disagreeing with anything in my post.

For the record I'd argue just as much (and indeed I have in the past when it has been on topic) that Nationalism/Republicanism has a responsibility to persuade that same middle ground of the merits of unification.

All too often, this is the problem Unionism continues to run into. Rather than outreach and convincing, the only points made are, 'but the IRA'. A whole generation has grown up and are now reaching voting age having never lived through the conflict you and I did. We all need to come up with something a bit more convincing than, 'but themmuns' and start thinking about discussing the positives that will convince people to our side rather than trying to focus entirely on the negatives of the other. As they say, you catch more flies with honey.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Oh Francie you do hold on tight to one sentence expressed (clumsily) by me a very long time ago
Now that is sad!

Well you never defined how being unable to guarantee your peacefulness fitted in with already accepting the democratic wish of the majority as laid out in the GFA.

Any resistance, peaceful or not to the democratic wish expressed in a border poll is contrary to what you agreed to in the GFA. That is why it is my view that 'moderate Unionists' will accept the decision and get on with it. Belligerent Unionism will resist it peacefully and not peacefully.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

There may never be a United Ireland runway. All of the indicators which would point towards a border poll are going in the wrong direction. The nationalist vote is stagnant at best, declining on some parameters. The Northern Irish identity is growing in strength.

Absolutely every prediction you've made on these issues has been proven wrong. Thank you for your latest forecasts as they too will surely be added to the list.

joeguevara

Is the discussion of a United Ireland and GFA merits appropriate posts on a thread about no public an enquiry for Mr. Finucane?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well you never defined how being unable to guarantee your peacefulness fitted in with already accepting the democratic wish of the majority as laid out in the GFA.

Any resistance, peaceful or not to the democratic wish expressed in a border poll is contrary to what you agreed to in the GFA. That is why it is my view that 'moderate Unionists' will accept the decision and get on with it. Belligerent Unionism will resist it peacefully and not peacefully.

Francie. You are over analysing it. I am a realist. If things kick off into a downward spiral of tit for tat, I don’t believe there is anyone can be sure that they will remain completely peaceful since it’s already been stated on here that violent self defence is not peaceful.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie. You are over analysing it. I am a realist. If things kick off into a downward spiral of tit for tat, I don’t believe there is anyone can be sure that they will remain completely peaceful since it’s already been stated on here that violent self defence is not peaceful.

Would be great if that was what you said.

You said you 'could not guarantee being peaceful' if any change was made to 'your wee country - NI'...which is a bolt on certainty if there is a vote for a UI and which you agreed to in the GFA.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Would be great if that was what you said.

You said you 'could not guarantee being peaceful' if any change was made to 'your wee country - NI'...which is a bolt on certainty if there is a vote for a UI and which you agreed to in the GFA.

Get me the quote Francie. I think you are twisting that a little.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Get me the quote Francie. I think you are twisting that a little.

downcow wrote:

I absolutely will never be cooperating with any agreement that results in NI not existing. I would try hard to remain completely peaceful in that scenario but I am honestly not sure I could.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112764510&postcount=5509

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112764510&postcount=5509

My goodness that’s a year ago. How time flys. I must have been squeaky clean since. You’ll have to show me sometime how to find old historic stuff like that.

I want to be honest with you. The reality is at mid 50s I am far to old to get violent.
If in a United ireland scenario, ni was not given massive autonomy then I do think all hell would break lose. If you think you are going to have 1 million loyalists doing a jig and tipping their hat to your partisan and still catholic state, well it is just no happening.
I do think there would be serious trouble for you guys to manage. But hey that would be your problem because we would be without a state and wanting equality and recognition. Everything on its head. We would be the small minority demanding rights and demanding autonomy for a small bit of this island