No public enquiry in Pat Finucane Murder

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

Everybody is entitled to the full truth. Public inquiries are not there for every type of murder, unfortunately.

So what type of murder are public enquiries for?

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

So what type of murder are public enquiries for?

Going by what an MP said this morning they are to be held when the British government is being held to a higher standard than others. Therefore, when the British state executes one of their own citizens, they need to be held accountable.

I believe that it was agreed in the Weston Park agreement that a public inquiry would be held into the state execution of Pat Finucane.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So what type of murder are public enquiries for?

When the state or one of it's agencies is alleged to be involved. The courts are the place where other murders are inquired into.

downcow

The_Fitz wrote: »

Going by what an MP said this morning they are to be held when the British government is being held to a higher standard than others. Therefore, when the British state executes one of their own citizens, they need to be held accountable.

I believe that it was agreed in the Weston Park agreement that a public inquiry would be held into the state execution of Pat Finucane.

Do you think that is appropriate ?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When the state or one of it's agencies is alleged to be involved. The courts are the place where other murders are inquired into.

So would that include every murder that the fisherman was involved in or any other republican or loyalist paramilitary that was a british agent?
Does it include any murder the Irish guardi were involved in?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So would that include every murder that the fisherman was involved in or any other republican or loyalist paramilitary that was a british agent?
Does it include any murder the Irish guardi were involved in?

Who is the fisherman?

We have already had (as part of the Weston Agreement too I believe) an inquiry into Garda collusion...The Smithwick Tribunal.

Any other murders are inquired into by the courts. If the 'court' messes up in that, a public inquiry would be required.

In fairness to Michael Martin he has today criticised the British in their failure to meet their commitments.

The_Fitz

downcow wrote: »

Do you think that is appropriate ?

Yes, I believe it was appropriate for the British to agree to hold a public inquiry into this murder.

Sinbad_NI

Would liked to have seen the enquiry going ahead. If some high ranking military generals or politicians or whoever are guilty then they deserve to pay for it... anyone who pulls the strings behind the scenes is just as guilty as the foot soldiers in my view.

That’s not even considering the fact they signed up to do it.

They’re all big boys, actions have consequences.

Timberrrrrrrr

McMurphy wrote: »

Sorry, I asked you to clarify what "sword" Pat Finnucane lived by?

I repeat, he was murdered for no other reason than he worked as a lawyer and defended republicans in court, and he was murdered for that (as was Rosemary Nelson afterwards)

You posted an absolutely ridiculous/disgraceful comment where you suggested Finnucane deserved to die because he worked as a lawyer and represented some republicans, I don't know about you, but I'd not be comfortable living in a state where you can't get legal defence because of your political beliefs, or actions, and similarly you might pay with your life as a lawyer for offering the same.

Listen, you made a stupid post and I called you out on it, the follow up looks even more stupid in that context.

Might be as well just not posting about stuff you know the square root of fcuk all about tbh.

This innocent man just tried to run a business

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/08/21/IRA-claims-responsibility-for-contractors-murder/2625493444800/

The Irish Republican Army said Wednesday it was responsible for the murder of a wealthy building contractor who it accused of building barracks and police posts for British security forces.

These innocent men were working to feed their families

https://apnews.com/article/f2de876145c0ea1144a800da4e623d2b

The IRA said its guerrillas gunned down two Protestant civilians doing maintenance work at a heavily fortified British barracks and declared it will kill others doing similar work.

Police said four gunmen ambushed Willie Hassard, 60, and Fred Love, 64, as they drove home in their van Thursday from the County Fermanagh village of Belleek in the west of the province.

″It was a picture of butchery,″ said Eugene Deeny, a doctor who was one of the first people on the scene. ″They had multiple bullet wounds to their heads and chests.″

This 6 month old baby never even got to have a life

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/baby-killed-by-ira-remembered-30-years-on-38631631.html

Nivruti Islania was just six months old when she was shot in the head by the IRA while in her father's car in West Germany in 1989.

She died instantly alongside her father, 34-year-old RAF communications operative Corporal Maheshkumar 'Mick' Islania in the October 26 attack.

Or how about a chef who was kidnapped and forced to drive a bomb to a checkpoint and was blown up by the IRA?

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/10/24/news/-barbaric-and-cowardly-coshquin-human-bombing-remembered-30-years-on-2108550/

Mr Gillespie had been employed as a civilian chef at Fort George British army barracks and it was the second time he had been forced to drive an IRA bomb.


The Coshquin bomb caused so much devastation that the Derry man could only be identified by a piece of flesh attached to a zip of the cardigan he had been wearing.

I'm not saying Pat Finnucane deserved to die just because of the work he did, his murder was a terrible thing, but to see the usual.IRA supporters in here wringing their hands over his death when their own heroes killed innocent people just because of the work they did is hypocrisy to say the least.

walshb

There have been killings of many from both sides where both sides can argue that the killings were justified or not justified, depending on the side.

IRA killed many people who you could argue should never have been targeted.

Same for loyalist killers..

I always felt that the IRA set out to target those that they believed to be directly involved in our oppression, or indirectly involved..

I always felt loyalists killed indiscriminately. There was a hate for Irish in their killings..

Anyway, thanks be to Jaysus this physical war is over

FrancieBrady

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This innocent man just tried to run a business

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/08/21/IRA-claims-responsibility-for-contractors-murder/2625493444800/



These innocent men were working to feed their families

https://apnews.com/article/f2de876145c0ea1144a800da4e623d2b



This 6 month old baby never even got to have a life

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/baby-killed-by-ira-remembered-30-years-on-38631631.html



Or how about a chef who was kidnapped and forced to drive a bomb to a checkpoint and was blown up by the IRA?

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/10/24/news/-barbaric-and-cowardly-coshquin-human-bombing-remembered-30-years-on-2108550/



I'm not saying Pat Finnucane deserved to die just because of the work he did, his murder was a terrible thing, but to see the usual.IRA supporters in here wringing their hands over his death when their own heroes killed innocent people just because of the work they did is hypocrisy to say the least.

I'm wringing my hands because the State is accused of being involved in murder.

What loyalists or republicans did or didn't do has nothing to do with it.

Timberrrrrrrr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm wringing my hands because the State is accused of being involved in murder.

What loyalists or republicans did or didn't do has nothing to do with it.

Of course it doesn't:rolleyes:

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is the fisherman?

We have already had (as part of the Weston Agreement too I believe) an inquiry into Garda collusion...The Smithwick Tribunal.

Any other murders are inquired into by the courts. If the 'court' messes up in that, a public inquiry would be required.

In fairness to Michael Martin he has today criticised the British in their failure to meet their commitments.

Francie, yes or no would have been more helpful. I have no idea what you think from that post

FrancieBrady

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Of course it doesn't:rolleyes:

You are willing to turn a blind eye to the State being involved in murder...that's fine, work away.
Don't be looking down your nose at those who think it is an important principle.

Too many years of turning a blind eye to the vagaries of imperialism and colonisation I suspect.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, yes or no would have been more helpful. I have no idea what you think from that post

I have wracked my brain to try and think of a public inquiry into a murder where the state or some state agency was NOT involved or where the state didn't mess up in the aftermath. I cannot think of one.

They don't happen downcow. It would be the same thing as a murder inquiry.

Public Inquiries look at state failings were independent oversight is required.

downcow

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This innocent man just tried to run a business

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1985/08/21/IRA-claims-responsibility-for-contractors-murder/2625493444800/



These innocent men were working to feed their families

https://apnews.com/article/f2de876145c0ea1144a800da4e623d2b



This 6 month old baby never even got to have a life

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/baby-killed-by-ira-remembered-30-years-on-38631631.html



Or how about a chef who was kidnapped and forced to drive a bomb to a checkpoint and was blown up by the IRA?

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/10/24/news/-barbaric-and-cowardly-coshquin-human-bombing-remembered-30-years-on-2108550/



I'm not saying Pat Finnucane deserved to die just because of the work he did, his murder was a terrible thing, but to see the usual.IRA supporters in here wringing their hands over his death when their own heroes killed innocent people just because of the work they did is hypocrisy to say the least.

Great post. A touch of reality

Timberrrrrrrr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are willing to turn a blind eye to the State being involved in murder...that's fine, work away.
Don't be looking down your nose at those who think it is an important principle.

Too many years of turning a blind eye to the vagaries of imperialism and colonisation I suspect.

And yet again FB puts words into a posters mouth to further his agenda. Nowhere did I say that, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the usual posters on here who will attack the British at every chance while always defending their IRA heroes for the exact same atrocities.

Normal One

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

IRA heroes for the exact same atrocities.

Exact same? Really?

FrancieBrady

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And yet again FB puts words into a posters mouth to further his agenda. Nowhere did I say that, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the usual posters on here who will attack the British at every chance while always defending their IRA heroes for the exact same atrocities.

So basically you are saying because the IRA did something that legitmises the State being involved n murder?

Or what are you saying? I'd be saying the same thing if they were involved in the murder of an Afghani or a Loyalist. Or if it was the Irish state or any state btw.

downcow

walshb wrote: »

There have been killings of many from both sides where both sides can argue that the killings were justified or not justified, depending on the side.

IRA killed many people who you could argue should never have been targeted.

Same for loyalist killers..

I always felt that the IRA set out to target those that they believed to be directly involved in our oppression, or indirectly involved..

I always felt loyalists killed indiscriminately. There was a hate for Irish in their killings..

Anyway, thanks be to Jaysus this physical war is over

What the hell does this mean? You want to try living in a minority Protestant community in Northern Ireland. They Ira were every bit as sectarian as the loyalist paramilitaries.
I could give you endless cases where the targeted people simply because they were Protestant, and more particularly, young Protestant males who were likely to inherit a farm.
They seem to have you guys heads spinning in the Republic, thinking they were somehow honourable and only targeted the Brits. The IRA were sectarian scumbags. They targeted the most vulnerable isolated Protestants. They took people away and tortured them for three days before they finally murdered them.
Look what they done to their own, and they won’t even admit that they got it so so wrong. The British agents in their ranks set up the ‘sound’ IRA men for torture and murder, often carried out by other british agents in their ranks. Why are they not calling for a public enquiry into how many of their members were killed by other members who were British agents? Denis Bradley said today why not. He said they want to hide some of the terrible stuff they done
Total scumbags

Timberrrrrrrr

Normal One wrote: »

Exact same? Really?

Pat Finnucane killed because he did a job

Patsy Gillespie killed because he did a job

Yeah, the same. Two men dead because of the work they did.

Timberrrrrrrr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So basically you are saying because the IRA did something that legitmises the State being involved n murder?

Or what are you saying? I'd be saying the same thing if they were involved in the murder of an Afghani or a Loyalist. Or if it was the Irish state or any state btw.

No, thats not what I'm saying at all, thats what the Republican in you sees when you read my post though.

FrancieBrady

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

No, thats not what I'm saying at all, thats what the Republican in you sees when you read my post though.

Can you tell us what your view of the State being involved in murder is? Because all I can see is you having a pop at the IRA.

Normal One

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Pat Finnucane killed because he did a job

Patsy Gillespie killed because he did a job

Yeah, the same. Two men dead because of the work they did.

Did the Irish government, or another state, assist in the planning and execution of Mr. Gillespie? Did the police forces fail to investigate his killing? Did the government renege on a commitment to hold an inquiry?

Timberrrrrrrr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you tell us what your view of the State being involved in murder is? Because all I can see is you having a pop at the IRA.

If the allegations are true then the people involved (no matter who they are) should be tried and punished.

C'mon FB we have been doing this dance for how many years now? You know I have no issue with condemning crimes committed by BA personnel or by their paymasters in the government.

You on the other side have defended the IRA to the hilt and then some, at no point was I defending the murder of Pat Finnucane I was just pointing north that the usual IRA supporters condemn his murder yet never mention the innocent people who were also killed by the IRA just because of the jobs they did.

BOTH sides committed heinous crimes, There is no justification and the families will probably never get any justice for their loved ones bit please stop making out that one side was good and one side was evil.

downcow

Normal One wrote: »

Did the Irish government, or another state, assist in the planning and execution of Mr. Gillespie? Did the police forces fail to investigate his killing? Did the government renege on a commitment to hold an inquiry?

Absolutely the Brits were involved in the Patsy Gillespie killing. One of their big agents 'the fisherman' was at the heart of arranging that attack.
what is the difference in some UDA men, who had handlers, hitting Finucane?

Normal One

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely the Brits were involved in the Patsy Gillespie killing. One of their big agents 'the fisherman' was at the heart of arranging that attack.
what is the difference in some UDA men, who had handlers, hitting Finucane?

It's almost like everything the brits stick their nose into ends badly. If what you claim were true, you can be sure it will remain under the carpet.

I'm sure you can see the common denominator.

FrancieBrady

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

If the allegations are true then the people involved (no matter who they are) should be tried and punished.

C'mon FB we have been doing this dance for how many years now? You know I have no issue with condemning crimes committed by BA personnel or by their paymasters in the government.

You on the other side have defended the IRA to the hilt and then some,

You may think I have, but I have never condoned an act of violence here ever. I think all the violence was wrong.
And even if I did tht does not make state involvement in murder correct.

at no point was I defending the murder of Pat Finnucane I was just pointing north that the usual IRA supporters condemn his murder yet never mention the innocent people who were also killed by the IRA just because of the jobs they did.

BOTH sides committed heinous crimes, There is no justification and the families will probably never get any justice for their loved ones bit please stop making out that one side was good and one side was evil.

I don't use victims of any side. No problem agreeing and have often said it, a lot of terrible things were done on this island.

end of the road

costacorta wrote: »

And you’re the expert on everything?in you own provo head maybe !As pointed out in another post Finucane was as much a target as a prison officer, or any other innocent victims murdered by your scummy friends . He was a well known republican but you will deny that like you deny Gerry was in the IRA as well . Maybe you need to take a break from posting 24/7 and go enjoy the good things in life rather than posting tripe day in day out ..Maybe have an inquiry to find out where ye buried jean Mc Conville ? Eh

he wasn't a republican and jerry wasn't in the ira, until such a case is brought to court to prove otherwise with sufficient evidence.

end of the road

costacorta wrote: »

I never called pat finucane scum !! I said IRA always crying foul when one of their Scum are shot . I stand over calling any IRA person scum and for that matter any other terrorist organisations Scum as well .

so you called pat finucane scum and presumably you believe the british army and RUC to be themselves terrorist organisations by virtue of the fact they committed terrorism?