Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

hynesie08 · 09-10-2020 1:23pm

eviltwin wrote: »

But that would be an impromptu thing, have a set mass and you have less control over who arrives and its unfair to expect a priest to do crowd control or ensure people are masked etc

C of I have vergers Catholic Church have lay people on the door welcoming people, stick them on the door, when you hit your capacity, close the doors...... Problem solved.

eviltwin · 09-10-2020 1:25pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Consecration, sacraments, cannot be preformed virtually.

Genuine question, why not? I can understand with baptism but for non contact things

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 1:28pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Genuine question, why not? I can understand with baptism but for non contact things

Ya why. Is there a distance limit set out in the Bible and what about if the priest just stood very far away?

Also if the archbishops tell the government that sacraments can't be done virtually then they should call for an immediate end to Sunday mass on RTE every week

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 1:32pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Genuine question, why not? I can understand with baptism but for non contact things

Well for Mass there is contact with bread and wine etc.

Here is an article about why confession can't be done over the phone, but it applies to all sacraments:

https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2020/04/30/confession-over-phone/

Juza1973 · 09-10-2020 1:32pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Although i understand your view and think mass could be handled, given the space available, you are dealing with an age profile who were being advised to cocoon. Mass appears to lie somewhere well away from the cocoon idea

Not all of them are in that age profile, you probably inform you about the Church from sixties propaganda.

Juza1973 · 09-10-2020 1:35pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya why. Is there a distance limit set out in the Bible and what about if the priest just stood very far away?

Also if the archbishops tell the government that sacraments can't be done virtually then they should call for an immediate end to Sunday mass on RTE every week

That dispense you of the obligation of you are sick, but it's no substitute for sacraments

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 1:36pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Well for Mass there is contact with bread and wine etc.

Here is an article about why confession can't be done over the phone, but it applies to all sacraments:

https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2020/04/30/confession-over-phone/

So back to my question.
Does this mean we can cancel mass on RTE?

GarIT · 09-10-2020 1:36pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Consecration, sacraments, cannot be preformed virtually.

And they definitely can't be performed in person with social distancing either.

This seems like the GAA all over again "please let us open we will follow the rules we swear" and the rules go out the window as soon as the go ahead is given.

TheValeyard · 09-10-2020 1:37pm

Churches have entire rows closed off and social distancing rules well applied. If 25 kids can be put in a room for six hours a day, mass could go ahead for 30minutes following guidelines without infections.

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 1:38pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya why. Is there a distance limit set out in the Bible and what about if the priest just stood very far away?

Also if the archbishops tell the government that sacraments can't be done virtually then they should call for an immediate end to Sunday mass on RTE every week

There is a misunderstanding of what the Mass is I think.

When a Catholic attends Mass he is not there as an idle spectator watching the priest do his thing. Rather, he, the massgoer, is a fundamental part of the Mass, and shares in it.

If you watch it on the TV, you are reduced to a spectator (which still has some value but it's much different).

GarIT · 09-10-2020 1:38pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

C of I have vergers Catholic Church have lay people on the door welcoming people, stick them on the door, when you hit your capacity, close the doors...... Problem solved.

Are the doors wide enough to do this without the person on the door potentially coming within 2m of one of the customers?

If a customer does come within 2m of some of the staff will that mass be cancelled or will it be put down to a mistake and ignored, until everything slips and no rules are being enforced?

trixi001 · 09-10-2020 1:39pm

I also don't agree with cancelling mass

On the day the pubs reopened - I was in a rural pub in Donegal, and got chatting (from a distance) to a man, a farmer who lives on his own, his contact with people pre covid was mass everyday and a drink in the local rural pub at the weekend.

Now he sees no-one, Mass gives a great sense of community especially in rural areas, and even a friendly wave across a chapel will be enough to make a difference to someones life.

The worshipping side of it also important, especially have people have lost loved ones, lost businesses, are worried about mental health, people get comfort from mass.
I am not overly religious but I know I do. Its an hour every week, away from technology, a chance to switch off and think about God, and about your own life.

GarIT · 09-10-2020 1:42pm

TheValeyard wrote: »

Churches have entire rows closed off and social distancing rules well applied. If 25 kids can be put in a room for six hours a day, mass could go ahead for 30minutes following guidelines without infections.

School has been accepted as dangerous but necessary, mass is dangerous (and thats even without considering the priest touching you) and unnecessary. The necessary vs unnecessary is the important part not the one is safe but the other isn't.

Zebra3 · 09-10-2020 1:42pm

I think it's safe to say, given the RC cult's history of contempt towards the safety and well being of people in this country, the idea of trusting them is an insult to their victims.

hynesie08 · 09-10-2020 1:44pm

GarIT wrote: »

Are the doors wide enough to do this without the person on the door potentially coming within 2m of one of the customers?

If a customer does come within 2m of some of the staff will that mass be cancelled or will it be put down to a mistake and ignored, until everything slips and no rules are being enforced?

That depends on the church, but most would have doors wide enough to accommodate social distancing, with single file entry.

As for the second part, I'm not sure what you're asking. Do they shut down tesco every time someone reaches over someone else for a packet of rashers?

GarIT · 09-10-2020 1:47pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

That depends on the church, but most would have doors wide enough to accommodate social distancing, with single file entry.

As for the second part, I'm not sure what you're asking. Do they shut down tesco every time someone reaches over someone else for a packet of rashers?

Shopping is essential it will remain open anyway.

The churchs are saying they can be an exception and will follow the other guidelines better than anyone else if they are allowed open. So what happens if they open and fail to follow the guidelines?

hynesie08 · 09-10-2020 1:52pm

GarIT wrote: »

Shopping is essential it will remain open anyway.

The churchs are saying they can be an exception and will follow the other guidelines better than anyone else if they are allowed open. So what happens if they open and fail to follow the guidelines?

They get shut again........ But they were open and were following the guidelines before everything went to level 3

Bubbaclaus · 09-10-2020 1:53pm

TheValeyard wrote: »

Churches have entire rows closed off and social distancing rules well applied. If 25 kids can be put in a room for six hours a day, mass could go ahead for 30minutes following guidelines without infections.

Education is essential. The comparison being made by some is just nonsense.

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 1:53pm

John Hutton wrote: »

There is a misunderstanding of what the Mass is I think.

When a Catholic attends Mass he is not there as an idle spectator watching the priest do his thing. Rather, he, the massgoer, is a fundamental part of the Mass, and shares in it.

If you watch it on the TV, you are reduced to a spectator (which still has some value but it's much different).

What an absolute cop out.
You can't have mass on a webcam but you can on TV. Why?
I'll tell you why. Because people have to search out a webcam show and it will only reach the already indoctrinated where as mass on the national broadcaster is propaganda spread weekly to all the public .

I mean ffs sake every day at 6 we send out a reminder to all the beaten and raped victims of the church in this country via the national broadcaster

hynesie08 · 09-10-2020 1:54pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

What an absolute cop out.
You can't have mass on a webcam but you can on TV. Why?
I'll tell you why. Because people have to search out a webcam show and it will only reach the already indoctrinated where as mass on the national broadcaster is propaganda spread weekly to all the public .

I mean ffs sake every day at 6 we send out a reminder to all the beaten and raped victims of the church in this country via the national broadcaster

Who says you can't have mass on a webcam?

GarIT · 09-10-2020 1:55pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

They get shut again........ But they were open and were following the guidelines before everything went to level 3

I don't trust them to make the decision to shut, or ban a parisioner if someone breaks the 2m rule. They will just excuse it as a mistake and keep going. It was mistakes being excused and rules being bent that brought us from Level 2 to 3, not necessarily in the church.

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 1:58pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

Who says you can't have mass on a webcam?

The bishops it seems. And ya I know bla bla you can have mass but not the sacraments but that's like saying you can play a game of soccer with no ball

Beasty · 09-10-2020 2:01pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

Well why can't you? There's absolutely nothing stopping you from contacting your local councillors or tds and getting an answer as to why restrictions apply to you.

The church are a group, just like ryanair or press up group or the lva, who want answers as to why they are under the restrictions they are under.

Nothing wrong with that.

Because I am no more special than the Catholic church

We are all in this - we are all subject to the restrictions in place. There are certain relaxations for the likes of schools, but so what? That is the way they have been set up. There are actually no "special cases" - the restrictions were written facilitating in-classroom education and other exceptions relating to the likes of essential activities. We all should be observing them and not stirring things by pleading we are "special"

Sofiztikated · 09-10-2020 2:02pm

I know of 1 case that was transmitted in a local church.

There are others related to churches world wide.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6920e2.htm

The guidelines are clear. Social distance. Don't gather in large groups. Cocoon the vulnerable.

How is this still difficult to understand.

hynesie08 · 09-10-2020 2:02pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

The bishops it seems. And ya I know bla bla you can have mass but not the sacraments but that's like saying you can play a game of soccer with no ball

Well yeah, the big sticking point is communion/eucharist, unfortunately there are a few stuck in their ways people (both clergy and parishioners) who are adament that it has to be done the traditional way, rather than pre blessing individually packed communion wafers.......

hynesie08 · 09-10-2020 2:05pm

Beasty wrote: »

Because I am no more special than the Catholic church

We are all in this - we are all subject to the restrictions in place. There are certain relaxations for the likes of schools, but so what? That is the way they have been set up. There are actually no "special cases" - the restrictions were written facilitating in-classroom education and other exceptions relating to the likes of essential activities. We all should be observing them and not stirring things by pleading we are "special"

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking why, which is what they're doing...... They're not running hedge masses or back alley baptisms, they just want an explanation as to why they're not given an exception when the church has been in other countries.

It's a question they're allowed ask, what they do with the answer is a different matter.

TheValeyard · 09-10-2020 2:05pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Education is essential. The comparison being made by some is just nonsense.

Then you must also agree that County players GAA should not be training, or all sports activities must be stopped.

Also its not nonsense. The virus doesnt think education is essential, its a virus, so its either the same rules for all of us, or all these restrictions are just nonsense.

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 2:09pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

What an absolute cop out.
You can't have mass on a webcam but you can on TV. Why?
I'll tell you why. Because people have to search out a webcam show and it will only reach the already indoctrinated where as mass on the national broadcaster is propaganda spread weekly to all the public .

I mean ffs sake every day at 6 we send out a reminder to all the beaten and raped victims of the church in this country via the national broadcaster

You are not understanding what I am saying.

Nearly every church broadcasts via webcam. The point I am making is that when you watch it on TV or webcam you are "watching" it, when you attend you are "taking part, and part of" it, there is a difference, certainly theologically as I've explained, and provided a link to where it is discussed in depth.

You should try turning off RTE and not watching it, I've been doing that for years. I don't really care what RTE do.

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 2:10pm

GarIT wrote: »

What makes it worse is that Irish collection plate money was used to fund the top lawyers for Cardinal Pell making the argument that the young boys were sexually taunting him and that it wasn't his fault he did it, the little boy had a nice bum and that made him do it so it was the childs fault.

They can't be trusted for anytrhing else, they can't be trusted for this.

What are you on about? This is completely untrue about Cardinal Pell.

Bubbaclaus · 09-10-2020 2:11pm

TheValeyard wrote: »

Then you must also agree that County players GAA should not be training, or all sports activities must be stopped.

Also its not nonsense. The virus doesnt think education is essential, its a virus, so its either the same rules for all of us, or all these restrictions are just nonsense.

I thought this wouldn't need explaining. But the whole point is that we need to manage risk whilst ensuring there is a functioning economy and country. So schools remain open and indoors, but indoor dining does not etc. Everyone is fully aware that the virus doesn't have an awareness or is intelligent. Jesus Christ.

I agree with you about sport by the way.

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 2:15pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking why, which is what they're doing...... They're not running hedge masses or back alley baptisms, they just want an explanation as to why they're not given an exception when the church has been in other countries.

It's a question they're allowed ask, what they do with the answer is a different matter.

Nothing wrong with asking why? Tell that to every woman, socialist or atheist who ever dared to ask the church why in the history of this state.

The church in this country have had enough exceptions

TheValeyard · 09-10-2020 2:16pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I thought this wouldn't need explaining. But the whole point is that we need to manage risk whilst ensuring there is a functioning economy and country. So schools remain open and indoors, but indoor dining does not etc. Everyone is fully aware that the virus doesn't have an awareness or is intelligent. Jesus Christ.

I agree with you about sport by the way.

We are not managing a functioning economy. We cannot keep writing IOUs. So this managing risk thing is either for all or none. Churches are far bigger than most classrooms or even shops, plenty of space to fit 20 well separated individuals in there.

If a person can still go to golden discs, Elvery sports, Off License, then i see no problem with a small number of socially distanced, masked and visored people going to a church for 30 minutes on a sunday. Wouldnt be going myself, but if people can take responsibility for their action and common sense otherwise everything will need to lockdown again or level 5, circuit breaker or whatever they want to call it this time.

Beasty · 09-10-2020 2:20pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking why, which is what they're doing...... They're not running hedge masses or back alley baptisms, they just want an explanation as to why they're not given an exception when the church has been in other countries.

It's a question they're allowed ask, what they do with the answer is a different matter.

Are they asking why or petitioning for a change? It appears the latter to me, because they think they are special

topmanamillion · 09-10-2020 2:20pm

JayZeus wrote: »

The cynical may also wonder if there are concerns regarding reduced collections amongst those who count the beans.

This is absolutely their primary concern. It's much easier to guilt someone into throwing a tenner into a collection basket if it's popped under their nose compared to them sitting at home.
Most rural churches are big old creaking century old buildings with big overheads.
The collection at mass must be a big percentage of their income so Covid is hitting them hard in the pocket and it's starting to sting.

TheValeyard · 09-10-2020 2:20pm

Just to add if we are talking about another mini lockdown, level 5 or circuit breaker, then they should not open, nothing should be open.

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 2:23pm

TheValeyard wrote: »

Just to add if we are talking about another mini lockdown, level 5 or circuit breaker, then they should not open, nothing should be open.

Yes I agree completely. That is how it has worked around the world, even in Italy !

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 2:24pm

John Hutton wrote: »

You are not understanding what I am saying.

Nearly every church broadcasts via webcam. The point I am making is that when you watch it on TV or webcam you are "watching" it, when you attend you are "taking part, and part of" it, there is a difference, certainly theologically as I've explained, and provided a link to where it is discussed in depth.

You should try turning off RTE and not watching it, I've been doing that for years. I don't really care what RTE do.

So what is the point of watching it. To critique the priests performance, to check out the new robes?
And what happens if a catholic is stuck far from a church and can't attend or someone is bedridden and can't go. Is it off to hell for them or does god make exceptions

hynesie08 · 09-10-2020 2:24pm

Beasty wrote: »

Are they asking why or petitioning for a change? It appears the latter to me, because they think they are special

Is it any different to the lva asking for a meeting to find out why pubs in Dublin were treated differently? Or ryanair taking the government to court?

You can't give out about them being a business and then be annoyed that they're acting on business interests.....

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 2:25pm

Beasty wrote: »

Are they asking why or petitioning for a change? It appears the latter to me, because they think they are special

Or, that they think they have been treated unfairly, or inconsistently, in comparison to others. This does not mean they think they are above everyone else.

eviltwin · 09-10-2020 2:26pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Or, that they think they have been treated unfairly, or inconsistently, in comparison to others. This does not mean they think they are above everyone else.

How are they being treated unfairly?

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 2:28pm

eviltwin wrote: »

How are they being treated unfairly?

Because they have gotten a massive kick up the exceptionalism from the government

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 2:29pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

So what is the point of watching it. To critique the priests performance, to check out the new robes?
And what happens if a catholic is stuck far from a church and can't attend or someone is bedridden and can't go. Is it off to hell for them or does god make exceptions

I don't think you are making a sincere inquiry here. But anyway:

1. The point of watching it: It can be prayerful and better than nothing at all, but it is not the same or a substitute.

2. The Sunday Obligation has been lifted (so it's not a sin if you don't go) and in ordinary times there is an exception if you are ill:

The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin (CCC 2181)

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 2:31pm

eviltwin wrote: »

How are they being treated unfairly?

Look at all the other stuff that is open under level 3. Look at how other countries are doing things.

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 2:34pm

John Hutton wrote: »

I don't think you are making a sincere inquiry here. But anyway:

1. The point of watching it: It can be prayerful and better than nothing at all, but it is not the same or a substitute.

2. The Sunday Obligation has been lifted (so it's not a sin if you don't go) and in ordinary times there is an exception if you are ill:

Cool so there you go in the words of your own church. Mass on a Sunday is not essential

eviltwin · 09-10-2020 2:36pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Look at all the other stuff that is open under level 3. Look at how other countries are doing things.

Like what? Genuinely confused how you think they are being treated unfairly

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 2:39pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Like what? Genuinely confused how you think they are being treated unfairly

They are being treated inconsistently. If this inconsistency is deliberate, then it is unfair.

I have already discussed a few example in the thread. Why, in your opinion, has every other country in the world (bar places like North Korea fundamentalist Islamic theocracy's) not banned Mass like Ireland has?

Bredabe · 09-10-2020 2:40pm

As someone who grew up in old fashioned Irish catholism(fasting on sat pm ahead of communtion on sun and the like) Im staggered at how many of those and the replacement rules have 'changed' since March.

Almost like 'god' is changing his mind according to covid, yet I would still be asked to believe that rules are handed down from 'him'.

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 2:41pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Cool so there you go in the words of your own church. Mass on a Sunday is not essential

Receipt of Communion, and other Sacraments, are however.

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 2:44pm

Bredabe wrote: »

As someone who grew up in old fashioned Irish catholism(fasting on sat pm ahead of communtion on sun and the like) Im staggered at how many of those and the replacement rules have 'changed' since March.

Almost like 'god' is changing his mind according to covid, yet I would still be asked to believe that rules are handed down from 'him'.

The way the Church has responded re obligations etc is very similar to her response to other pandemics and plagues throughout the centuries.

There have been major changes, around the edges, in the Church since Vatican II but the core fundamentals remain unchanged. The Church is in a constant state of reform. Today I think it is only an hour before communion you should fast.

Bubbaclaus · 09-10-2020 2:47pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Receipt of Communion, and other Sacraments, are however.

According to who? Some people think sports are essential. Some people think pints are essential.

Everyone is making sacrifices with their "essential" personal items here for the greater good.

Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

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