Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

GarIT · 09-10-2020 10:26AM

There are no sensible discussions to be had if it has to be on the basis that Christanity is special above all else the virus doesn't work like that so I'm out.

09-10-2020 10:29AM

Happy that the Bishops are free to call for and lobby about this on behalf of their parishioners

But also happy that the decision isn't theirs to make.

It is quite akin to businesses- yes, it's difficult, yes your users are clamouring to be back and you want to be open

But there's no case for it at all in the circumstances

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 10:30AM

GarIT wrote: »

Do you have statistical evidence for your claim that I am in the minority or are you making it up?

The majority of the worlds governments treat religious worship and expression as a separate category. As do their laws, including those in Ireland. In France a court case was taken to vindicate people's rights, I don't see why that should be necessary for us.

The constitution also provides a right to gather in a group. Everyone is having to make sacrafices.

Yes, but if precautions are taken to allow stuff to go ahead safely I don't see why is shouldn't. I we go to a full lockdown I don't have an issue with Churches being temporarily closed, but we are talking about level 3 currently were loads of places are still open.

Lots of things are causing stress and anxiety right now, like the cancelling of GAA matches. Or the fact that I haven't been able to visit my termal grandfather for the last 6 + months.

That is very sad and I am sorry to hear about your grandad, I will say a prayer for him and your family.

For lots of people religious worship can be very helpful for them mentally in situations like this.

You could say all the same things about the measures at my local cinema.

Have to say I am surprised if they are that comprehensive ! But again we come back to the fundamental difference in the nature of activity. We don't have laws forbidding discrimination on the basis of what films you like!

The root of the problem is you want a special status that you no longer have.

I think the root of your issue and objection might be your dislike for the Church. It's not a "special" status, but rather being treated fairly. If shopping centres and barbers are open, Mass should be allowed too.

09-10-2020 10:32AM

AlanG wrote: »

There is a remarkable level of intolerance in some of your views. The arguments made by the church leaders are very strong. Clearly mass provide a great source of mental well being to many people and most churches can clearly be safe places in a time of COVID. They are well ventilated and have loads of space.

I don't feel the need to go to mass but I do believe in science and there is no scientific reason to stop small numbers of people going into a massive building. I also believe in the proven mental health benefits for participants who choose to go to mass.

There is certainly scientific reasons to stop small numbers of people being indoors.

A public health expert has told young people “if you are going to do mad stuff do it outside”.

Anthony Staines, professor of public health systems at Dublin City University, said it was “much safer to have 200 of your friends in a field than 20 of your friends back in your house”.

A study published in the British Medical Journal in July found the chances of people getting Covid-19 in an indoor environment were more than 18 times higher than in an outdoor setting.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/safer-to-meet-200-friends-in-a-field-than-20-indoors-says-expert-1.4360939

It won't be youngsters attending mass.

logically · 09-10-2020 10:37AM

I am a regular church goer. I'm not a holy joe, an eldery or frail person or anything else the media would like us to believe are the only people that frequent churches these days.

I desperately miss being able to celebrate mass on Sunday with my wife and children.

I miss singing, I miss the nods and waves, the sense of community.

I worry that the 10 million euro (for those who like to talk about the economy) going to the St. Vincent de Paul from the various collections won't be there this year, and what that means for those less fortunate than myself in the run up to Christmas.

Needless to say, I full endorse the view that the ability to worship is an essential service, but I can't see any exemption being made in Ireland given a generally hostile and influential media.

smacl · 09-10-2020 11:18AM

Moved from Christianity forum to Coronavirus forum. Please read and adhere to the local charter before posting.

Beasty · 09-10-2020 11:27AM

All this shows is that the Catholic Church believe they are above all of this. Sod the rest of us, but the church must do what it wants to how it wants to. They seriously still believe they are entitled to avoid applying the rules the rest of us are expected to (and we can all shout we are "special" in some way, so the restrictions re not for us)?

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 12:03PM

Beasty wrote: »

All this shows is that the Catholic Church believe they are above all of this. Sod the rest of us, but the church must do what it wants to how it wants to. They seriously still believe they are entitled to avoid applying the rules the rest of us are expected to (and we can all shout we are "special" in some way, so the restrictions re not for us)?

They have said that they want to discuss the rules and that restrictions on worship should be more consistent, both with the rest of the world and restrictions applied here under level 3 to other places, businesses etc.

There is a discussion to have here, and while you mightn't agree they certainly have a valid point in saying that Ireland are treating religious worship different than the rest of the world.

I found the tone of the letter very respectful, they want a meeting to discuss it. I think your animosity toward the Church is coloring your view.

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 12:05PM

Do it outside like I have to with my essentials like coffee or a pint. It's not like most churches have more than 15 customers these days anyway

eviltwin · 09-10-2020 12:08PM

I know for a religious person mass attendance is important but its not essential and if you can access daily mass online, on tv and radio does not being there is person really matter? I appreciate the loss of community and there is no comparison to being there in person but we are all missing something we love and we just have to get on with it.

Beasty · 09-10-2020 12:10PM

John Hutton wrote: »

They have said that they want to discuss the rules and that restrictions on worship should be more consistent, both with the rest of the world and restrictions applied here under level 3 to other places, businesses etc.

There is a discussion to have here, and while you mightn't agree they certainly have a valid point in saying that Ireland are treating religious worship different than the rest of the world.

I found the tone of the letter very respectful, they want a meeting to discuss it. I think your animosity toward the Church is coloring your view.

They should simply accept they are not a special case. If not we can all plead how special we are and the whole system collapses. They are no more special than many other organisations that rely on interaction with the public

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 12:11PM

GarIT wrote: »

There are no sensible discussions to be had if it has to be on the basis that Christanity is special above all else the virus doesn't work like that so I'm out.

The forum rules for the Christianity section seem like a joke to anyone who believes in open dialogue but in fairness questioning Jehovah is one of the big sins in Christianity.

But this topic has been moved to the covid forum now though so all bets are off baby.

eviltwin · 09-10-2020 12:11PM

John Hutton wrote: »

They have said that they want to discuss the rules and that restrictions on worship should be more consistent, both with the rest of the world and restrictions applied here under level 3 to other places, businesses etc.

There is a discussion to have here, and while you mightn't agree they certainly have a valid point in saying that Ireland are treating religious worship different than the rest of the world.

I found the tone of the letter very respectful, they want a meeting to discuss it. I think your animosity toward the Church is coloring your view.

I think its the fact they see themselves as special that they should be considered in a way other business or recreational services are not. I'd love a meeting with the minister to discuss the impact on our clients at work who are missing out on vital services due to lockdown but I wouldn't waste my time because I know we are a small fish in a big pond.

hynesie08 · 09-10-2020 12:14PM

Beasty wrote: »

They should simply accept they are not a special case. If not we can all plead how special we are and the whole system collapses. They are no more special than many other organisations that rely on interaction with the public

Well why can't you? There's absolutely nothing stopping you from contacting your local councillors or tds and getting an answer as to why restrictions apply to you.

The church are a group, just like ryanair or press up group or the lva, who want answers as to why they are under the restrictions they are under.

Nothing wrong with that.

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 12:15PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I know for a religious person mass attendance is important but its not essential and if you can access daily mass online, on tv and radio does not being there is person really matter? I appreciate the loss of community and there is no comparison to being there in person but we are all missing something we love and we just have to get on with it.

Yes, given the nature of the Mass, and the theology etc. behind it, virtual attendance is no substitute and not the same.

Is it not odd that under level three the church can remain open for private prayer (i.e. the building is open and a decent number of people can go in and pray or light a candle) but a priest can't say Mass when people are there anyway?

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 12:16PM

Is there a radius on blessings. In church a priest blesses the bread at a distance of about 10 to 20cm but is that due to convenience or do priests powers diminish with distance ?

Basically is bread blessed if a priest does it over a webcam or from the back of a room ?

Tzardine · 09-10-2020 12:19PM

Would the Archbishops not be better off just asking Jesus to come back and cure the Covid-19 epidemic?

2000 years is a decent break in fairness - he needs to get off his hole at some point.

eviltwin · 09-10-2020 12:19PM

John Hutton wrote: »

Yes, given the nature of the Mass, and the theology etc. behind it, virtual attendance is no substitute and not the same.

Is it not odd that under level three the church can remain open for private prayer (i.e. the building is open and a decent number of people can go in and pray or light a candle) but a priest can't say Mass when people are there anyway?

But that would be an impromptu thing, have a set mass and you have less control over who arrives and its unfair to expect a priest to do crowd control or ensure people are masked etc

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 12:21PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Is there a radius on blessings. In church a priest blesses the bread at a distance of about 10 to 20cm but is that due to convenience or do priests powers diminish with distance ?

Basically is bread blessed if a priest does it over a webcam or from the back of a room ?

Consecration, sacraments, cannot be preformed virtually.

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 12:22PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But that would be an impromptu thing, have a set mass and you have less control over who arrives and its unfair to expect a priest to do crowd control or ensure people are masked etc

There are stewards to do that, and turn people away if necessary.

hynesie08 · 09-10-2020 12:23PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But that would be an impromptu thing, have a set mass and you have less control over who arrives and its unfair to expect a priest to do crowd control or ensure people are masked etc

C of I have vergers Catholic Church have lay people on the door welcoming people, stick them on the door, when you hit your capacity, close the doors...... Problem solved.

eviltwin · 09-10-2020 12:25PM

John Hutton wrote: »

Consecration, sacraments, cannot be preformed virtually.

Genuine question, why not? I can understand with baptism but for non contact things

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 12:28PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Genuine question, why not? I can understand with baptism but for non contact things

Ya why. Is there a distance limit set out in the Bible and what about if the priest just stood very far away?

Also if the archbishops tell the government that sacraments can't be done virtually then they should call for an immediate end to Sunday mass on RTE every week

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 12:32PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Genuine question, why not? I can understand with baptism but for non contact things

Well for Mass there is contact with bread and wine etc.

Here is an article about why confession can't be done over the phone, but it applies to all sacraments:

https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2020/04/30/confession-over-phone/

Juza1973 · 09-10-2020 12:32PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Although i understand your view and think mass could be handled, given the space available, you are dealing with an age profile who were being advised to cocoon. Mass appears to lie somewhere well away from the cocoon idea

Not all of them are in that age profile, you probably inform you about the Church from sixties propaganda.

Juza1973 · 09-10-2020 12:35PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya why. Is there a distance limit set out in the Bible and what about if the priest just stood very far away?

Also if the archbishops tell the government that sacraments can't be done virtually then they should call for an immediate end to Sunday mass on RTE every week

That dispense you of the obligation of you are sick, but it's no substitute for sacraments

breezy1985 · 09-10-2020 12:36PM

John Hutton wrote: »

Well for Mass there is contact with bread and wine etc.

Here is an article about why confession can't be done over the phone, but it applies to all sacraments:

https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2020/04/30/confession-over-phone/

So back to my question.
Does this mean we can cancel mass on RTE?

GarIT · 09-10-2020 12:36PM

John Hutton wrote: »

Consecration, sacraments, cannot be preformed virtually.

And they definitely can't be performed in person with social distancing either.

This seems like the GAA all over again "please let us open we will follow the rules we swear" and the rules go out the window as soon as the go ahead is given.

TheValeyard · 09-10-2020 12:37PM

Churches have entire rows closed off and social distancing rules well applied. If 25 kids can be put in a room for six hours a day, mass could go ahead for 30minutes following guidelines without infections.

John Hutton · 09-10-2020 12:38PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya why. Is there a distance limit set out in the Bible and what about if the priest just stood very far away?

Also if the archbishops tell the government that sacraments can't be done virtually then they should call for an immediate end to Sunday mass on RTE every week

There is a misunderstanding of what the Mass is I think.

When a Catholic attends Mass he is not there as an idle spectator watching the priest do his thing. Rather, he, the massgoer, is a fundamental part of the Mass, and shares in it.

If you watch it on the TV, you are reduced to a spectator (which still has some value but it's much different).

Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

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