Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

ixoy · 16-07-2020 2:10pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

if that small cluster leads to larger community transmission, then of course obviously.

But the point is, should it be at a county level? It's an arbitrary division and you could have parts of Kildare closer to an affected Dublin region than some parts of Dublin. We could aim for something a bit more targeted I'd hope (much in the way that in some circumstances, they did it certain parts of Beijing, not all of it, or certain tower blocks in Germany).

thegetawaycar · 16-07-2020 2:25pm

Jackman25 wrote: »

Localized region in Spain goes into lockdown due to increases in cases most likely caused by influx of number of people coming from abroad to pick fruit in unfavorable conditions.
Still struggling to see the link to keeping pubs in Ireland closed.

Hi Jackman, you'll find the link here - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53299544 "Officials linked local outbreaks to bars in the area"

The opening of bars directly led to a spike in cases.

Spain is not necessarily the greatest place to compare to here, they are very dependent on the tourism income as an economy and they report quite little updates on Coronavirus at a national level from the areas that are tourist hotspots.

Masks are now mandatory out doors in most of the regions and wearing a mask all the time in 35+ degree heat is much less fun than what people here complain about.

sydthebeat · 16-07-2020 2:39pm

ixoy wrote: »

But the point is, should it be at a county level? It's an arbitrary division and you could have parts of Kildare closer to an affected Dublin region than some parts of Dublin. We could aim for something a bit more targeted I'd hope (much in the way that in some circumstances, they did it certain parts of Beijing, not all of it, or certain tower blocks in Germany).

your base point is incorrect

the covid test levels are measured on a county basis, so any quantifying is then not on arbitrary basis but a measured, systematic basis....
as far as i know this county based measurement is the smallest area measurement, though i am open for correction on that.

based on those measured results, any division should be enacted.

ixoy · 16-07-2020 2:44pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

as far as i know this county based measurement is the smallest area measurement, though i am open for correction on that.

But we have the figures down to the electoral district level, no?

Patrick2010 · 16-07-2020 3:04pm

Bit cynical wrote: »

I can't see what is going to happen between now and 10th August that would allow pubs to open on that date if they are not deemed fit to open now.

Indeed, only 13 people in hospital in the whole of Ireland with Covid and St James hospital report no new cases with either staff or patients since June 3. Hard to see this situation getting any better before 10th August so if they don't reopen now they'll hardly reopen then.

Macy0161 · 16-07-2020 3:12pm

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Hard to see this situation getting any better before 10th August so if they don't reopen now they'll hardly reopen then.

It does enforce the messaging though.

At the moment, they can point to the takeaway pints, pubs flouting the with food/ time limit, house parties. Don't follow "the rules" then restrictions aren't lifted or there's a risk of them coming back. Maybe behavioural change is the change they're looking for rather than purely the numbers (although the R number is somewhat reflective of the behaviours).

Bit cynical · 16-07-2020 3:32pm

One of the problems is that up to this point many people thought that getting the numbers (cases and deaths) down was the end goal. Once these had been brought down to very low levels then things could start getting back to normal (they thought).

However you could have zero cases and zero deaths for a month and still need restrictions if the reproduction rate is above unity since the reproduction rate is a combination of the properties of the virus itself, the environment and people's behaviour. It only takes a small number of cases to kick the whole thing off again.

Restrictions lower the R number but they don't keep the R number low once restrictions are lifted, regardless of the scarcity of the virus.

16-07-2020 3:51pm

Bit cynical wrote: »

One of the problems is that up to this point many people thought that getting the numbers (cases and deaths) down was the end goal. Once these had been brought down to very low levels then things could start getting back to normal (they thought).

However you could have zero cases and zero deaths for a month and still need restrictions if the reproduction rate is above unity since the reproduction rate is a combination of the properties of the virus itself, the environment and people's behaviour. It only takes a small number of cases to kick the whole thing off again.

Restrictions lower the R number but they don't keep the R number low once restrictions are lifted, regardless of the scarcity of the virus.

Reducing the cases to low levels buys you time to react appropriately, not react to every minor shift in the R number. The R number is a theoretical calculation based on some known facts and some assumptions, a useful tool to aid in making decisions, not the be all and end all.

Also, if you have zero cases and zero deaths for a month, you don't have an R number - just a divide by zero error

Jackman25 · 16-07-2020 3:52pm

thegetawaycar wrote: »

Hi Jackman, you'll find the link here - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53299544 "Officials linked local outbreaks to bars in the area"

The opening of bars directly led to a spike in cases.

Spain is not necessarily the greatest place to compare to here, they are very dependent on the tourism income as an economy and they report quite little updates on Coronavirus at a national level from the areas that are tourist hotspots.

Masks are now mandatory out doors in most of the regions and wearing a mask all the time in 35+ degree heat is much less fun than what people here complain about.

No mention of bars in LLeida.

Bit cynical · 16-07-2020 3:55pm

A further problem is that the more successful you are at suppressing the virus in the early stages, the less immunity there is in the population. Since immunity is one of the factors reducing the reproduction number, more stringent restrictions are needed to be kept in place.

Bit cynical · 16-07-2020 4:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, if you have zero cases and zero deaths for a month, you don't have an R number - just a divide by zero error

I would argue that you do have an R number. Impossible to calculate directly but possible to model based on other numbers.

For example, a country that hasn't been hit yet by the virus and is carrying on as normal would have a high R number. This means that if the virus did arrive, it would rapidly spread.

In addition, reported cases don't mean there is no virus. There can be quite a lot of spread before any cases show up in the figures.

Humilde · 16-07-2020 4:21pm

Lads. I am based in Spain since last August. The last place in the world you should be taking notes from is here. The general population is effectively now hypochondriac. People are s....tless. They don't seem to want to think for themselves. They are happy to swallow the nonsense coming from the government and supposed health "experts". The whole thing is now just bizarre. I can tell you that in my region of Cantabria, there are now virtually no Covid patients in hospital (there may be one or two old people in for observation but definitely no one in ICU). There is a collective suspicion of everyone else. Everyone you meet says its not possible to trust the population to socially distance and that is why we should all wear masks everywhere (inside and out) even if there's no one near us. It's very common to see people wearing their mask although alone in their cars. The big question is why is there no common sense being used. I struggle to answer it. I think it may be political. Now that the virus has virtually disappeared, I think the politicians want to be seen to be taking big decisions as they have seen that their popularity has soared during the virus. Basically, the virus has been really good for them so they don't want to let it go. In Ireland, if people get back to normal, it means they will also get back to asking what's going on with the housing crisis, the children's hospital fiasco, the chaotic health service. Speaking of the health service. I also believe it is in the interest of the health service for this to roll on as long as possible. They have been painted as heroes in all of this for doing the job they were signed up to do in the first place. The heat has been taken off the HSE when they were really under the cosh for the continued failure to reform or get the place in order. They are even expecting pay rises to come from it. Why wouldn't they want the fun to continue? Of course, the civil service unions would be happy for the whole thing to roll on as so many of their members are on paid leave, from supposedly sick nurses to teachers. There will be fiscal hell to pay down the road but the politicians and civil servants won't be effected as usual. I also think that the governments have seen now how easy it is to coerce an entire population. I dont think its good for anyone. The media seem to be also in on the act. They only show one side of the story, that of the governments. Anyone who questions or goes against the oficial line is not contacted anymore for comment. Kind of ironic that this is now happening given that the virus originated from a place where free speech is only an aspiration for most.

ExMachina1000 · 16-07-2020 4:34pm

BPKS wrote: »

Yes - instead they should have left the pub at 9 o clock and all gone back to the same house to continue drinking.

A few of them went back to one of the houses. Smoked a few joints and more drinks. Sharing a joint. Dopey enough

Strumms · 16-07-2020 4:50pm

Humilde wrote: »

Anyone who questions or goes against the oficial line is not contacted anymore for comment. Kind of ironic that this is now happening given that the virus originated from a place where free speech is only an aspiration for most.

There are still a whole heap of people who would be delighted to go against expert medical advice, social advice, to suit their own interests, socially and businesses being the core benefits.

It’s correct that the messaging their content and delivery are from one, verifiable trusted source. The government and health services.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-07-2020 5:37pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Don't brew too much, it was intended as a short term measure but whatever!
I'm not sure the market for cheap slop brewed by some chancer is as hot as you'd expect....but you work away and let us know how you get on!

Many more would just switch to "cheaper, illegal drugs" just because the price of alcohol went up by a few quid? Really, really doubt that myself. I think about 18-25 year old me, I certainly wouldn't have moved on to harder stuff just because the price of drink went up (and if I had, I'd be dead by now because the price of drink went up consistently during that period!)

You're talking about tripling or quadrupling the price of drink, though.

So double down and stick in some anecdata... no, you still haven't made an argument, sorry. You also ignored the fact that you are punishing many responsible people because of the irresponsible actions of a few. I've seen plenty of teenagers talking the absolute p*ss about gathering in large groups and not distancing, but they don't need any drink or drugs to do that.

PhilOssophy · 16-07-2020 5:46pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You're talking about tripling or quadrupling the price of drink, though.

So double down and stick in some anecdata... no, you still haven't made an argument, sorry. You also ignored the fact that you are punishing many responsible people because of the irresponsible actions of a few. I've seen plenty of teenagers talking the absolute p*ss about gathering in large groups and not distancing, but they don't need any drink or drugs to do that.

We'll agree to differ, you're saying my argument is lame, well I'd say your arguments is nonsense. But good luck with the brewery project!

Richard Hillman · 16-07-2020 5:48pm

You have to look at the types that are pushing for this within the medical Quangos and NGOs. High level Medical professionals are the types that shoot 600-625 in a leaving cert and remain hermits throughout their university education. Then when they got into their jobs they became careerists. Pushing for promotion after promotion. They have robot personalities. Socially inadequate. They see life in an analytical perspective.

Fair play to them, they have succeeded professionally, they must be earning a packet. But I am not taking social advice from them and they have absolutely no business in trying to interfere with our social lives beyond a national emergency, of which it is over.

thegetawaycar · 16-07-2020 5:49pm

Jackman25 wrote: »

No mention of bars in LLeida.

I was only referring to the post saying "Still struggling to see the link to keeping pubs in Ireland closed."

I gave one showing that they have been found as the source of transmission in other countries.

JasonStatham · 16-07-2020 5:50pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

You have to look at the types that are pushing for this within the medical Quangos and NGOs. High level Medical professionals are the types that shoot 600-625 in a leaving cert and remain hermits throughout their university education. Then when they got into their jobs they became careerists. Pushing for promotion after promotion. They have robot personalities. Socially inadequate. They see life in an analytical perspective.

Fair play to them, they have succeeded professionally, they must be earning a packet. But I am not taking social advice from them and they have absolutely no business in trying to interfere with our social lives beyond a national emergency, of which it is over.

Chippus Maximus.

Hurrache · 16-07-2020 5:54pm

Does this mean he also wouldn't go see a doctor, but the seventh son of a seventh son to have their manky hands rubbed into his balls as a cure?

LuasSimon · 16-07-2020 7:18pm

Should pubs that serve food not be closed as well ?

I can’t drink 6 pints in the local pub but I can drink 6 pints in a pub 500 yards down the road after I eat a club sandwich and chips ?

PTH2009 · 16-07-2020 7:29pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Should pubs that serve food not be closed as well ?

I can’t drink 6 pints in the local pub but I can drink 6 pints in a pub 500 yards down the road after I eat a club sandwich and chips ?

yeah that makes this even more frustrating and flawed

Its just not the same and your almost encouraged too binge drink cause your on a time limit

Hotblack Desiato · 16-07-2020 8:17pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

We'll agree to differ, you're saying my argument is lame, well I'd say your arguments is nonsense.

Ah yeah, €5 a can in the offy, that's not at all insane. :rolleyes:

hmmm · 16-07-2020 9:39pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Should pubs that serve food not be closed as well ?

I can’t drink 6 pints in the local pub but I can drink 6 pints in a pub 500 yards down the road after I eat a club sandwich and chips ?

They're not operating as pubs, they're operating as restaurants.

If they're taking the piss out of this rule and allowing people sit there for the night drinking pints over a shared packet of peanuts, they are putting the entire industry at risk.

boombang · 16-07-2020 9:44pm

Some threads on boards are fantastic flames to the moths of stupidity, but this one is the best in a while. I wish those who want a free for all would just go and book themselves one way tickets to Florida at let the rest of us beat this virus and get the economy and society up and running again.

GazzaL · 16-07-2020 9:50pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

You have to look at the types that are pushing for this within the medical Quangos and NGOs. High level Medical professionals are the types that shoot 600-625 in a leaving cert and remain hermits throughout their university education. Then when they got into their jobs they became careerists. Pushing for promotion after promotion. They have robot personalities. Socially inadequate. They see life in an analytical perspective.

Fair play to them, they have succeeded professionally, they must be earning a packet. But I am not taking social advice from them and they have absolutely no business in trying to interfere with our social lives beyond a national emergency, of which it is over.

NPHET are a clear illustration of the difference between education and intelligence.

There are 11 people in hospital in the whole country with COVID-19, yet here they are leaving huge numbers of people with non-COVID illnesses go undiagnosed and untreated, destroying people's livelihoods, and inventing solutions to problems that don't exist like forcing people to wear face masks in shops that have been safely open throughout the pandemic.

The most stupid of them talk about "eradicating" the virus in Ireland, which is impossible unless we become the next North Korea.

ExMachina1000 · 16-07-2020 10:03pm

hmmm wrote: »

They're not operating as pubs, they're operating as restaurants.

If they're taking the piss out of this rule and allowing people sit there for the night drinking pints over a shared packet of peanuts, they are putting the entire industry at risk.

Happening all over. We all know it. Many of us have experienced it

GazzaL · 16-07-2020 10:05pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Happening all over. We all know it. Many of us have experienced it

I'd rather that than the fear mongering that is making some people nearly **** themselves at the sight of another human being.

Bit cynical · 16-07-2020 10:14pm

I thing the reality of the suppression strategy is kicking in. If you go down this route, you need to keep restrictions in place until a vaccine becomes available; you can't just lift them when numbers become low. Moreover, by preventing healthy people from contracting the virus, you lower natural immunity in the population further necessitating the need for restrictions.

Politically we have to continue with this until either the economy or society can't sustain it any more or a vaccine becomes available.

ExMachina1000 · 16-07-2020 10:22pm

GazzaL wrote: »

I'd rather that than the fear mongering that is making some people nearly **** themselves at the sight of another human being.

I saw a man not using hand sanitizer down in supervalu today.
First appointment with therapist next week

ExMachina1000 · 16-07-2020 10:24pm

Bit cynical wrote: »

I thing the reality of the suppression strategy is kicking in. If you go down this route, you need to keep restrictions in place until a vaccine becomes available; you can't just lift them when numbers become low. Moreover, by preventing healthy people from contracting the virus, you lower natural immunity in the population further necessitating the need for restrictions.

Politically we have to continue with this until either the economy or society can't sustain it any more or a vaccine becomes available.

The Us have thrown trillions at the economy to keep the show on the road.
Europe cant agree to releasing even a Euro to countries.

Hurrache · 16-07-2020 10:26pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

The Us have thrown trillions at the economy to keep the show on the road.

Pretty much all that money has gone into companies coffers, many who don't need a single cent, it hasn't filtered down to the public and employees.

ExMachina1000 · 16-07-2020 10:37pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Pretty much all that money has gone into companies coffers, many who don't need a single cent, it hasn't filtered down to the public and employees.

260 billion dollars was sent to individuals in the form of cheques valued at 1200 each. This was part of a 2 trillion dollar stimulus.

Trump proposing a second stimulus package worth total of 3 trillion with cheques being sent out to individuals to the amount of 2000 dollars a piece.

Businesses have received hundreds of billions too. If they fold there are no jobs to come back to.

murpho999 · 16-07-2020 10:42pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Happening all over. We all know it. Many of us have experienced it

OK, but it doesn't make it right does it?

I'd say they'll get caught eventually.

ExMachina1000 · 16-07-2020 10:43pm

murpho999 wrote: »

OK, but it doesn't make it right does it?

I'd say they'll get caught eventually.

Of course not.

They wont get caught. Maybe 5% of them will get caught . The other 95% will be making bank

Charles Babbage · 17-07-2020 1:59am

GazzaL wrote: »

NPHET are a clear illustration of the difference between education and intelligence.

There are 11 people in hospital in the whole country with COVID-19, yet here they are leaving huge numbers of people with non-COVID illnesses go undiagnosed and untreated, destroying people's livelihoods, and inventing solutions to problems that don't exist like forcing people to wear face masks in shops that have been safely open throughout the pandemic.

The most stupid of them talk about "eradicating" the virus in Ireland, which is impossible unless we become the next North Korea.

They aren't leaving people untreated, the problems in the health service are caused by those who continue to transmit the virus meaning that any form of treatment is potentially dangerous. But sure who cares about cancer patients so long as you can get your 5 hours drinking in the same place. First things first.

bodhrandude · 17-07-2020 2:28am

Jackman25 wrote: »

No mention of bars in LLeida.

LLeida is mentioned in one of the pics in the article, no reference to the pubs though just the area.

PhilOssophy · 17-07-2020 6:28am

Charles Babbage wrote: »

They aren't leaving people untreated, the problems in the health service are caused by those who continue to transmit the virus meaning that any form of treatment is potentially dangerous. But sure who cares about cancer patients so long as you can get your 5 hours drinking in the same place. First things first.

Absolutely, and sure NPHET should be formed of a group of online users who are experts in the spread of infectious diseases based on "what they see around them", I mean who needs to have 10+ years studying medicine when you have such geniuses thinking the pubs opening wouldn't be any problem whatsoever, PADDY KNOWS BETTER!

pjohnson · 17-07-2020 6:39am

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Of course not.

They wont get caught. Maybe 5% of them will get caught . The other 95% will be making bank

I can imagine the scuzzy backwaters. Probably full off 16 year olds aswell. Those dives are everywhere.

GazzaL · 17-07-2020 6:40am

Charles Babbage wrote: »

They aren't leaving people untreated, the problems in the health service are caused by those who continue to transmit the virus meaning that any form of treatment is potentially dangerous. But sure who cares about cancer patients so long as you can get your 5 hours drinking in the same place. First things first.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Absolutely, and sure NPHET should be formed of a group of online users who are experts in the spread of infectious diseases based on "what they see around them", I mean who needs to have 10+ years studying medicine when you have such geniuses thinking the pubs opening wouldn't be any problem whatsoever, PADDY KNOWS BETTER!

NPHET are the lads that made the taxpayer pay €100,000,000 per month to keep private hospitals empty. Public hospitals were also deserted. People haven't just been miraculously cured or stopped developing non-COVID illnesses. Our health service are not above being questioned, particularly given that they have brought scandal after scandal down through the years. You'll have to forgive people who don't deify them.

ExMachina1000 · 17-07-2020 6:52am

pjohnson wrote: »

I can imagine the scuzzy backwaters. Probably full off 16 year olds aswell. Those dives are everywhere.

Not really. Pibs serving food with booked out tables filled by people who have been at work themselves all week.
Normal service has resumed for some.
Time limit bring ignored

Ultima Thule · 17-07-2020 7:09am

I always thought the relationship between Paddy and his pint was down to banter. But we really are dependent on alcohol in this country. The panic and outrage of pubs staying closed is surprising.

People give out about their income during covid yet give out about not being able to spend the money they have got on an unnecessary luxury.

Besides, well before covid the whole world and its aunt knew that pubs were going down the gastro route. Yet some just stayed aa they are.
Then Covid hit, and they had a chance to adapt for a few months, yet the same chose to stay the same. They want the world to change for them.

GazzaL · 17-07-2020 7:13am

Ultima Thule wrote: »

I always thought the relationship between Paddy and his pint was down to banter. But we really are dependent on alcohol in this country. The panic and outrage of pubs staying closed is surprising.

People give out about their income during covid yet give out about not being able to spend the money they have got on an unnecessary luxury.

Besides, well before covid the whole world and its aunt knew that pubs were going down the gastro route. Yet some just stayed aa they are.
Then Covid hit, and they had a chance to adapt for a few months, yet the same chose to stay the same. They want the world to change for them.

I couldn't give a toss about going for a pint, but I think it's a disgrace that NPHET are destroying people's jobs and businesses in the pub trade.

ExMachina1000 · 17-07-2020 7:18am

GazzaL wrote: »

I couldn't give a toss about going for a pint, but I think it's a disgrace that NPHET are destroying people's jobs and businesses in the pub trade.

Any thoughts on a once in a lifetime global pandemic?

HeidiHeidi · 17-07-2020 7:45am

Richard Hillman wrote: »

You have to look at the types that are pushing for this within the medical Quangos and NGOs. High level Medical professionals are the types that shoot 600-625 in a leaving cert and remain hermits throughout their university education. Then when they got into their jobs they became careerists. Pushing for promotion after promotion. They have robot personalities. Socially inadequate. They see life in an analytical perspective.

Fair play to them, they have succeeded professionally, they must be earning a packet. But I am not taking social advice from them and they have absolutely no business in trying to interfere with our social lives beyond a national emergency, of which it is over.

Generalise much?

Whatever the merits of your "lockdown/restrictions r nonsense" argument, you seriously undermine it with ****e like this.

Banjaxed82 · 17-07-2020 8:28am

I'd say most sensible publicans can accept staying closed, but for a small pub in Ballymuck in a county that has had minimal infections and has to stay closed, even though they have safety features installed...and at the same time yanks are jetting in from Texas and wandering around to heart's content.

It's the frustration of consistency that riles them I'd say. I was in my local Tesco express. Small enough. There was about 20+ people in there. People grabbing things, putting them back. People not really staying distanced, yet at the same time only 3 of us wearing masks. A lof of the safety protocols put in place seems fundamentally futile.

Bottom line, as I heard someone saying yesterday, what's going to be so different in 3 weeks? It's can kicking stuff.

PhilOssophy · 17-07-2020 8:31am

GazzaL wrote: »

NPHET are the lads that made the taxpayer pay €100,000,000 per month to keep private hospitals empty. Public hospitals were also deserted. People haven't just been miraculously cured or stopped developing non-COVID illnesses. Our health service are not above being questioned, particularly given that they have brought scandal after scandal down through the years. You'll have to forgive people who don't deify them.

And you were shouting at the time that that was a really bad idea, yeah? As we looked on and saw that hospitals in Italy making decisions over sharing ventilators, etc, does it not occur to you that that was what they were preparing for?
I completely agree that the health service are not above being questioned (cervical check, etc springing to mind), but they were working on a brand-new virus about which the whole world knew very little.
Hindsight is 20/20. I'd rather they prepared for it and it not happen than not prepare for it and then be finger pointing and blaming.

lawrencesummers · 17-07-2020 8:39am

Was in a small rural pub last night.
Family owned, 5 of the same family run the place and have a lot to lose, more than most.

Had two pints in the smoking area, plenty of space.

Only stayed an hour, didn’t have food so presumably I’m going to die.

hmmm · 17-07-2020 9:19am

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Bottom line, as I heard someone saying yesterday, what's going to be so different in 3 weeks? It's can kicking stuff.

We're going to know for certain whether cases are rising or remaining steady. Right now the government is being told by NPHET that cases are rising, so this buys time.

We're in a pandemic. There will be lots of can kicking, and we will be going backwards and forwards with restrictions until we have a vaccine.

facehugger99 · 17-07-2020 9:42am

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Any thoughts on a once in a lifetime global pandemic?

The one that poses zero risk to young, healthy people or is there another one we're supposed to be scared of?

Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

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