College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

jwwb · 17-04-2016 10:42am

Some observations:
1 I wouldn't start from here. Luas was never meant to go through College Green 20 years ago it was supposed to be the Metro.
2 Now that we're here I wouldn't have gone this way. Living in Leiden in NL years ago they put a four lane road underneath a new plaza at the train station. Bit more complex with a junction but the traffic to / from Dame street could have gone underground and out of the way.
3 Since when did Temple Bar become a sacred pedestrian space? Any cross city traffic could be routed through to Fleet street and then across the river. Actually Temple Bar could benefit from a bit of bulldozering.
4 Don't see buses that would turn around at Westmoreland/d'olier/Fleet street having to turn around at Dame street being a massive inconvenience.
5 the arterial traffic lanes separating the North and South city centre really impact on how the city works for pedestrians.
6 can we ban lycra from the college green cycle lanes. Big difference between someone cycling leisurely and someone trying to beat the cross city personal best

MJohnston · 17-04-2016 11:18am

jwwb wrote: »

6 can we ban lycra from the college green cycle lanes. Big difference between someone cycling leisurely and someone trying to beat the cross city personal best

Aye, the "leisurely" cyclists tend to be the ones without any notice of the laws. Dublin Bikers especially, and I would guess tourist Dublin Bikers being the absolute worst.

Deedsie · 17-04-2016 11:53am

jwwb wrote: »

6 can we ban lycra from the college green cycle lanes. Big difference between someone cycling leisurely and someone trying to beat the cross city personal best

We should ban people speeding through the plaza. I would support designated lanes with broken lines so pedestrians can cross them when safe to do so.

Banning Lycra is a silly suggestion, these cyclists are the ones more likely to be aware of and follow the rules in my experience. Always a few fools but get AGS to fine them a few times and they won't be long towing the line.

One of my fears about the plaza is that it will become a "taxi rank" for those stupid rickshaws... Another fear is they will include bicycle parking in the plaza. I'm a cyclist, I cycle through Dublin everyday but the sight of battered bikes left at a parking bay is really ugly. I hope they keep the plaza clear of this.

Attached was my suggestion for a designated slow speed cycle lane

cdebru · 17-04-2016 12:06pm

Deedsie wrote: »

We should ban people speeding through the plaza. I would support designated lanes with broken lines so pedestrians can cross them when safe to do so.

Banning Lycra is a silly suggestion, these cyclists are the ones more likely to be aware of and follow the rules in my experience. Always a few fools but get AGS to fine them a few times and they won't be long towing the line.

One of my fears about the plaza is that it will become a "taxi rank" for those stupid rickshaws... Another fear is they will include bicycle parking in the plaza. I'm a cyclist, I cycle through Dublin everyday but the sight of battered bikes left at a parking bay is really ugly. I hope they keep the plaza clear of this.

Attached was my suggestion for a designated slow speed cycle lane

Your drawing would bring all cycle traffic to the exact busiest pedestrian point in the entire area those moving between Grafton Street area and O'Connell Street area.

Deedsie · 17-04-2016 12:20pm

cdebru wrote: »

Your drawing would bring all cycle traffic to the exact busiest pedestrian point in the entire area those moving between Grafton Street area and O'Connell Street area.

Its not to scale... I would imagine the roundabout would be centred between the trinity crossing and the pinch point with Grafton Street. Also as Suffolk street is to be pedestrianised I think that will dilute the number of pedestrians going through the pinch point at Lush...

cgcsb · 17-04-2016 9:18pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I asked upthread about the (more than likely) contention between buses stopping and the LUAS behind it waiting for boarding and exit from the buses. I was kindly informed that there would be no bus stops until Westmoreland Street. Whew I thought, that's good!

But is the photo a legitimate view of the plan? I dunno.

Bottom line is, if buses or taxis are allowed to stop/pick up/drop off on the Luas line there will be trouble ahead!.

Edit.... I've just looked again, and I suppose on a pragmatic basis, if the bus stops are indented fully, it might not be so bad. But still.....

given how there is typically a solid queue of double deckers from nassau st to O'Connell Bridge in the morning, I think it's safe to say there will be bus queues holding up the luas.

strandroad · 17-04-2016 9:28pm

cgcsb wrote: »

given how there is typically a solid queue of double deckers from nassau st to O'Connell Bridge in the morning, I think it's safe to say there will be bus queues holding up the luas.

On this topic, why won't anything be done with the fact that queues of buses are largely caused by how much time it takes to load/unload a bus when everyone needs to go past the driver, and maybe look for change or have a chat because why not...
You could have multiple buses use the bus stop and be gone in the time it takes to process one bus in this way.
It's so ridiculously quaint.

Drivers don't help by not opening the middle door, happened to me this week - he just ignored me.

To be honest it's hard to take any bus related city planning complaints seriously when the bus system is set up to be so inefficient.

RainyDay · 18-04-2016 11:04am

jwwb wrote: »

6 can we ban lycra from the college green

But what will all the yummy mummies wear as they head for Starbucks after doing their shopping?

nowecant · 18-04-2016 11:11am

mhge wrote: »

On this topic, why won't anything be done with the fact that queues of buses are largely caused by how much time it takes to load/unload a bus when everyone needs to go past the driver, and maybe look for change or have a chat because why not...
You could have multiple buses use the bus stop and be gone in the time it takes to process one bus in this way.
It's so ridiculously quaint.

Drivers don't help by not opening the middle door, happened to me this week - he just ignored me.

To be honest it's hard to take any bus related city planning complaints seriously when the bus system is set up to be so inefficient.

Delivery trucks and vans on D'Olier street in the mornings are a major issue as well, especially outside the Spar. They stop in the bus stops preventing buses getting in or out.

nowecant · 18-04-2016 11:28am

There was a plan a few years back to remove the railings around St Andrews Church and make the area into a smaller plaza. I rely think the idea should be resurrected and be done at the same time as college green

Of course it would be much better if they remove the traffic from Church lane and St Andrews street. Of course delivery vans can still use them first thing in the morning.

Here is some more info and graphics on the Journal.ie

and some more info in The Irish Times

I think I also remember that the council wanted to open the new plaza around St Andrews Church onto Wicklow St

cgcsb · 18-04-2016 11:48am

Deliveries should be done much earlier 5am-7am seems fair.

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 11:54am

Delivery and taxi drivers are fairly lawless in this city unfortunately. They push and push their luck, and because there's zero AGS traffic presence in the city (beyond speed cameras), they get away with a lot. Especially annoying is their deliberate ignorance of double yellow lines, or simply just stopping in areas which cause disruption for everyone else. Taxis being allowed to use College Green is going to be a major problem - they should be banned during daytime hours.

nowecant · 18-04-2016 12:01pm

A single delivery truck in those bus stops for 20 mins can easily inconvenience 20+ fully loaded buses in the morning. A lot of people delayed for even 2 minutes adds up to a lot of time, never mind the frustration of being 10 meters from your stop being stuck on the bus while trying to get to work.

Last week there was two rigid lorries stopped on the other side of the spar on D'Olier street completely blocking that lane of traffic outside a parked row of cars doing deliveries at 8.30. This forced 3 lanes of traffic down to 2 beside what might be the busiest set of bus stops in the country.

The liberal application of some very heavy fines would sort it out. Even impound the truck will all of its cargo and see how long they keep doing it for.

In many cities all deliveries in the city center have to stop during rush hours or be completed early in the morning.

cdebru · 18-04-2016 12:09pm

cgcsb wrote: »

given how there is typically a solid queue of double deckers from nassau st to O'Connell Bridge in the morning, I think it's safe to say there will be bus queues holding up the luas.

Not necessarily with other traffic removed buses could in theory flow straight through that section to Westmoreland St

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 12:19pm

It strikes me how much of the objection to this plaza is along the lines of the disruption to bus routes as they currently exist. We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes, in favour of central termini with easy and cost-free transfers between transport modes. The most frustrating thing is that this is entirely within grasp, but people are too keen for no change to happen at all.

Carawaystick · 18-04-2016 12:35pm

There is no cost free transfer solution to have people walking in the rain along where there used to be public transport though.

cgcsb · 18-04-2016 12:36pm

MJohnston wrote: »

It strikes me how much of the objection to this plaza is along the lines of the disruption to bus routes as they currently exist. We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes, in favour of central termini with easy and cost-free transfers between transport modes. The most frustrating thing is that this is entirely within grasp, but people are too keen for no change to happen at all.

We had city centre termini, we got rid of them in favour of more cross city routes to improve suburb-suburb connectivity. Why do you want to go back to that?

cdebru · 18-04-2016 12:36pm

MJohnston wrote: »

It strikes me how much of the objection to this plaza is along the lines of the disruption to bus routes as they currently exist. We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes, in favour of central termini with easy and cost-free transfers between transport modes. The most frustrating thing is that this is entirely within grasp, but people are too keen for no change to happen at all.

Actually that is really what we should be aiming for rather than over long undependable cross city routes, a central station where you could transfer to a bus with a more dependable timetable to take you on to your final destination would open up a lot more potential routes to passengers.

cdebru · 18-04-2016 12:39pm

cgcsb wrote: »

We had city centre termini, we got rid of them in favour of more cross city routes to improve suburb-suburb connectivity. Why do you want to go back to that?

We didn't we had various city centre termini which didn't facilitate transfering and we changed those routes to much longer undependable routes which may be great if you need to go from Coolock to Jobstown but is pretty much useless if you want to go from Coolock to Ranelagh or Jobstown to Phibsboro.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 12:53pm

MJohnston wrote: »

It strikes me how much of the objection to this plaza is along the lines of the disruption to bus routes as they currently exist. We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes, in favour of central termini with easy and cost-free transfers between transport modes. The most frustrating thing is that this is entirely within grasp, but people are too keen for no change to happen at all.

Umm we have already had a network review which resulted in more cross-city routes being created, as recommended by the Deloitte Report.

The passenger numbers rose after this was implemented so clearly that is what people want.

DCC are dead set against city centre termini so that won't be happening.

Cost free transfers aren't going to happen unless the funding model changes and I've not seen any indication that is going to take place.

Devilman40k · 18-04-2016 2:08pm

We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes

An overhaul of the DB network has already happened - in favour of cross city routes with major interchange points at Westmoreland St and D'olier St, which have actually worked (based on increases in passenger numbers)- This new plan has the potential to remove a lot of the benefit that was introduced in Network Direct.

in favour of central termini

DCC are actively against this - Plus I'm sure you remember the days when Parnell Sq, the Quays (north and South), Abbey St, College Green and Fleet St were all bus termini. Routes were disjointed with no changeover points causing hassle for commuters across the city

The only way to implement this is one central bus terminal (Westmoreland St and D'Olier St as it stands do this job)

cost-free transfers between transport modes

This is not within anyone's grasp at the moment , the funding is not there, funding and fare model would require radical change to achieve this.

cdebru · 18-04-2016 2:10pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Umm we have already had a network review which resulted in more cross-city routes being created, as recommended by the Deloitte Report.

The passenger numbers rose after this was implemented so clearly that is what people want.

DCC are dead set against city centre termini so that won't be happening.

Cost free transfers aren't going to happen unless the funding model changes and I've not seen any indication that is going to take place.

Not completely true most network direct happened in 2011 and passenger number fell in 2011 and again in 2012 and stabilised in 2013.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 2:16pm

cdebru wrote: »

Not completely true most network direct happened in 2011 and passenger number fell in 2011 and again in 2012 and stabilised in 2013.

The numbers on the revised cross-city routes did increase after Network Direct was implemented - I can clearly remember DB reporting that.

The majority of ND changes were actually during both 2011 and 2012.

Passenger numbers pretty much stabilised at the end of 2012 and rose again in 2013.

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 2:19pm

So - did Network Direct intend to address Luas BXD or indeed a future plaza plan? I doubt it on the latter, and it would seem (from the current situation being what it is) that they didn't really address the former either.

Here's my point - whether the plaza plan goes ahead or not (and I have the strong feeling it will, if not in it's current guise), bus services through College Green are going to be severely degraded purely by the addition of BXD. Buses heading east-west on College Green are going to have a really bad time. Given this, I don't know how anyone can argue the bus network won't already need substantial revisions. Any plaza plan, even if it still provides reduced east-west access, will compound this.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 2:25pm

MJohnston wrote: »

So - did Network Direct intend to address Luas BXD or indeed a future plaza plan? I doubt it on the latter, and it would seem (from the current situation being what it is) that they didn't really address the former either.

Here's my point - whether the plaza plan goes ahead or not (and I have the strong feeling it will, if not in it's current guise), bus services through College Green are going to be severely degraded purely by the addition of BXD. Buses heading east-west on College Green are going to have a really bad time. Given this, I don't know how anyone can argue the bus network won't already need substantial revisions. Any plaza plan, even if it still provides reduced east-west access, will compound this.

Network Direct was aimed at cutting out operational inefficiencies and unnecessary duplication of routes, creating a mix of direct and local his services and improving integration of bus services on QBCs.

At that stage no planning for the buses post-LUAS BXD had taken place. No suggestion was made until DCC released these plans that buses would be re-routed away from College Green.

That is the whole problem here - it is only being done now effectively as an afterthought.

That's what's so ludicrous about this.

I don't think that losing the cross-city connectivity is the solution.

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 2:30pm

At no point then, did anyone at Dublin Bus do any examination of how BXD would effect bus routes?

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 2:35pm

MJohnston wrote: »

At no point then, did anyone at Dublin Bus do any examination of how BXD would effect bus routes?

Well as far as I am aware the understanding was that the routes would revert to their former routing.

It's only when DCC came up with plans that reduced the traffic lanes (shared or otherwise) from 4 to 2 that this has become such an issue.

Again - this should have formed part of the planning process. It didn't.

Carawaystick · 18-04-2016 2:39pm

as lxflyer has mentioned many times, an Bord Pleanála should have concerned themselves with this issue before granting planning for the tram through College Green.

What's happening now is the corpo saying "We have thjat shiny thing, if we had this other shiny thing too, it'd be great!"
"But what about all the people you're making life worse for?"

"Let them eat tram"

Devilman40k · 18-04-2016 2:42pm

MJohnston wrote: »

At no point then, did anyone at Dublin Bus do any examination of how BXD would effect bus routes?

At no stage during consultation for BXD or ND in 2009/2010 was a plaza proposed for College Green

The Railway Order Application for BXD was submitted in June 2010, ND began implementation in July 2010 but had been in design for some time before that

It was envisaged that Suffolk St to O'CS corridor would remain open for buses and routes would remain as they were.

This only became an issue when DCC realised (last year) that none of their own proposed plans would work

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 2:47pm

Nobody looked at the BXD route and said "hold on a minute, these bus routes going to be crossing a priority tram route, maybe we should be trying to avoid that area?"

As I said, plaza or no plaza, east-west on College Green is going to be extremely degraded thanks to BXD.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 2:48pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Nobody looked at the BXD route and said "hold on a minute, these bus routes going to be crossing a priority tram route, maybe we should be trying to avoid that area?"

As I said, plaza or no plaza, east-west on College Green is going to be extremely degraded thanks to BXD.

Not if there were four lanes of traffic retained on College Green between the junction with College Street and Grafton Street - the two could co-exist.

That as I see it is the principal problem here.

LUAS does not need more than one traffic lane in either direction.

Frankly you seem to be blaming DB here when the real culprits are the local authority and light rail planners who failed to produce a proper plan from the outset.

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 3:00pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Not if there were four lanes of traffic retained on College Green between the junction with College Street and Grafton Street - the two could co-exist.

That as I see it is the principal problem here.

I really don't see how you could foresee four lanes of traffic being retained once BXD started becoming a reality.

But even if you took that to be true, the northbound route that BXD will take is a new movement that doesn't currently exist, and as it's Luas, I would imagine it'll be heavily prioritized. The same reduction in bus traffic is going to happen at Hawkins & Pearse junction too. East-west, and west-north, bus routes are unarguably going to be degraded massively, and to be honest, if I was running route planning, I would have been thinking about re-routing to avoid these new conflicts entirely.

Devilman40k · 18-04-2016 3:01pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Nobody looked at the BXD route and said "hold on a minute, these bus routes going to be crossing a priority tram route, maybe we should be trying to avoid that area?"

As I said, plaza or no plaza, east-west on College Green is going to be extremely degraded thanks to BXD.

The original proposal for BXD included 3 lanes of traffic on College Green and Dame Street (not the 2 which DCC later introduced) it allowed for a luas stop on the east side of Westmoreland St causing no conflict with bus routes and causing no issue with east/west flow.

The original DCC plans had a junction at College Green which caused massive conflicts between cyclist and bus modes - DCC realised this and introduced the idea of a plaza - this however was last year (5 years AFTER ND and BXD were designed and approved/implemented)

DCC own plans never existed when BXD and ND were under consultation

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 3:06pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Frankly you seem to be blaming DB here when the real culprits are the local authority and light rail planners who failed to produce a proper plan from the outset.

Here's the thing - I'm not looking to blame anybody (in part because it seems like quite everybody is at fault in some way or another), I'm more interested in proceeding from the current reality.

Devilman40k · 18-04-2016 3:09pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Here's the thing - I'm not looking to blame anybody (in part because it seems like quite everybody is at fault in some way or another), I'm more interested in proceeding from the current reality.

The current reality however is a mess.

Interconnection between bus routes - without which ND probably could never have actually worked - will be lost now.

There is a potential for a lot of pain coming up now for bus commuters and DCC solely should bear the brunt of any and all complaints on that front

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 3:10pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I really don't see how you could foresee four lanes of traffic being retained once BXD started becoming a reality.

But even if you took that to be true, the northbound route that BXD will take is a new movement that doesn't currently exist, and as it's Luas, I would imagine it'll be heavily prioritized. The same reduction in bus traffic is going to happen at Hawkins & Pearse junction too. East-west, and west-north, bus routes are unarguably going to be degraded massively, and to be honest, if I was running route planning, I would have been thinking about re-routing to avoid these new conflicts entirely.

Why should 4 lanes not be possible?

One southbound shared to Grafton St and one to turn right onto Dame st.

One northbound shared from Grafton St and one for traffic off Dame St.

All things being equal that should be possible if buses are not stopping en route.

Nassau Street should prove that - it's two relatively narrow lanes.

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 3:12pm

Devilman40k wrote: »

The current reality however is a mess.

Interconnection between bus routes - without which ND probably could never have actually worked - will be lost now.

There is a potential for a lot of pain coming up now for bus commuters and DCC solely should bear the brunt of any and all complaints on that front

The current reality is simply this - BXD will open next year and degrade bus routes crossing or intersecting with it. The plaza is a possible future reality.

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 3:16pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Why should 4 lanes not be possible?

One southbound shared to Grafton St and one to turn right onto Dame st.

One northbound shared from Grafton St and one for traffic off Dame St.

All things being equal that should be possible if buses are not stopping en route.

Depends on whether you think Luas and DB can share space without effect. Personally I think that's impossible.

Again, I'll point out that there will be a new northbound movement (BXD) introduced to this junction, and a new southbound movement at the Pearse/Hawkins St junction. Bearing in mind that Luas will generally receive priority, I find it an inescapable conclusion that buses traveling through College Green will be negatively impacted, and I think arguably it'll be a massive negative impact.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 3:18pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The current reality is simply this - BXD will open next year and degrade bus routes crossing or intersecting with it. The plaza is a possible future reality.

Any degradation to bus routes at College Green is minimal when compared with the disruption the proposed diversions will cause.

Devilman40k · 18-04-2016 3:20pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The current reality is simply this - BXD will open next year and degrade bus routes crossing or intersecting with it. The plaza is a possible future reality.

No BXD is not the reason that east/west routing will degrade, DCC's own plans are.

DCC never introduced their plans in the first place.. had they done so 5 years ago, while both operators were in the middle of redesigning how they operated we wouldn't be looking at this mess now.

Also east / west routing is not the sole issue here (it's not even the biggest issue in my opinion), connectivity and ease of changeover is also being lost.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 3:22pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Depends on whether you think Luas and DB can share space without effect. Personally I think that's impossible.

Again, I'll point out that there will be a new northbound movement (BXD) introduced to this junction, and a new southbound movement at the Pearse/Hawkins St junction. Bearing in mind that Luas will generally receive priority, I find it an inescapable conclusion that buses traveling through College Green will be negatively impacted, and I think arguably it'll be a massive negative impact.

Of course there will be some effect, but the reality is that the buses going to/from Grafton St will be sharing lanes with LUAS between Dawson St and College Street regardless.

Buses going to/from Dame St would be subject to traffic lights control at the junction with College St and would be in non-shared lanes.

I doubt that LUAS extension will be getting significant priority in the city centre - many of the Red Line junctions require it to wait for the traffic light cycle to work through.

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 3:29pm

You're both having trouble separating out what I'm saying about the addition of BXD from the proposed Plaza plans here (Devilman especially). My argument is simply that because of BXD, bus re-routing will become an absolute necessity. I make no presumptions that the proposed DCC plan should be the re-routing that would help alleviate the strain the BXD will bring to the city centre bus network, but I would still assert that bus routes will need to change.

Luas doesn't get priority for all of the day, but it has high priority on most junctions for most of the day, and slightly raised priority (medium) at places like OCS for most of peak hours, I can't see College Green being any different.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 3:39pm

MJohnston wrote: »

You're both having trouble separating out what I'm saying about the addition of BXD from the proposed Plaza plans here (Devilman especially). My argument is simply that because of BXD, bus re-routing will become an absolute necessity. I make no presumptions that the proposed DCC plan should be the re-routing that would help alleviate the strain the BXD will bring to the city centre bus network, but I would still assert that bus routes will need to change.

Luas doesn't get priority for all of the day, but it has high priority on most junctions for most of the day, and slightly raised priority (medium) at places like OCS for most of peak hours, I can't see College Green being any different.

I am pretty sure you will find that LUAS does not have priority at OCS - it has to go through the full traffic light cycle.

Don't get me wrong. I think there will probably be some bus routing changes too but I think that removing the Dame St- College Green route completely is not an option - it's just creating an unholy mess.

The proposals as they stand are a nonsense.

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 3:42pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I am pretty sure you will find that LUAS does not have priority at OCS - it has to go through the full traffic light cycle.

Nope, it has adaptive priority, there's a small window where it has to wait for a full cycle (low priority). Most of the peak hours on OCS it has to wait for the current traffic PHASE to end, not the cycle (medium priority). The rest of the day it gets the same high priority as elsewhere.

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 3:44pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Don't get me wrong. I think there will probably be some bus routing changes too but I think that removing the Dame St- College Green route completely is not an option - it's just creating an unholy mess.

The proposals as they stand are a nonsense.

We'll have to disagree there then, because I think bus + Luas mixing is just a recipe for a bigger mess, and will eventually have to be rethought if it is allowed to happen.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 4:12pm

MJohnston wrote: »

We'll have to disagree there then, because I think bus + Luas mixing is just a recipe for a bigger mess, and will eventually have to be rethought if it is allowed to happen.

So in your eyes there should be no buses on any part of College Green?

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 4:19pm

lxflyer wrote: »

So in your eyes there should be no buses on any part of College Green?

I think there needs to be one lane for Luas, one for Bus each direction. No taxis. No bus stops on CG itself.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 4:23pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I think there needs to be one lane for Luas, one for Bus each direction. No taxis. No bus stops on CG itself.

And how will that work on Grafton St and Nassau St where there is no space for that?

Effectively you're saying four lanes?

MJohnston · 18-04-2016 4:44pm

lxflyer wrote: »

And how will that work on Grafton St and Nassau St where there is no space for that?

Effectively you're saying four lanes?

You're right, that won't work southbound thanks to the Dame Street turning lane, which you want to retain (I'd like to get rid of the turn). I would like the northbound Grafton St buses to remained re-rerouted as is currently the case, College Street bus stops probably need to be permanently relocated, taxis need to be completely removed from this whole area during peak hours. Trinity needs to be opened up for a cycling route, because cycling through this street without the plaza plan will be exceptionally dangerous (it already is, and when you add tram tracks into the equation, it'll get worse), and should probably be banned here too for now. Bus gate should go 24/7. DB should also examine the possibility to start moving some routes away from CG, plaza or no.

LXFlyer · 18-04-2016 4:50pm

MJohnston wrote: »

You're right, that won't work southbound thanks to the Dame Street turning lane, which you want to retain (I'd like to get rid of the turn). I would like the northbound Grafton St buses to remained re-rerouted as is currently the case, College Street bus stops probably need to be permanently relocated, taxis need to be completely removed from this whole area during peak hours. Trinity needs to be opened up for a cycling route, because cycling through this street without the plaza plan will be exceptionally dangerous (it already is, and when you add tram tracks into the equation, it'll get worse), and should probably be banned here too for now. Bus gate should go 24/7. DB should also examine the possibility to start moving some routes away from CG, plaza or no.

Well the bus gate will be 24/7, there won't be bus stops on College St due to a LUAS stop being there. There aren't any stops there as it is.

Problem with sending northbound buses the way they go now is that there will be no right turn at the bottom of Dawson St per the LUAS EIS plans.

College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

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