College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

jwwb

Some observations:
1 I wouldn't start from here. Luas was never meant to go through College Green 20 years ago it was supposed to be the Metro.
2 Now that we're here I wouldn't have gone this way. Living in Leiden in NL years ago they put a four lane road underneath a new plaza at the train station. Bit more complex with a junction but the traffic to / from Dame street could have gone underground and out of the way.
3 Since when did Temple Bar become a sacred pedestrian space? Any cross city traffic could be routed through to Fleet street and then across the river. Actually Temple Bar could benefit from a bit of bulldozering.
4 Don't see buses that would turn around at Westmoreland/d'olier/Fleet street having to turn around at Dame street being a massive inconvenience.
5 the arterial traffic lanes separating the North and South city centre really impact on how the city works for pedestrians.
6 can we ban lycra from the college green cycle lanes. Big difference between someone cycling leisurely and someone trying to beat the cross city personal best

MJohnston

jwwb wrote: »

6 can we ban lycra from the college green cycle lanes. Big difference between someone cycling leisurely and someone trying to beat the cross city personal best

Aye, the "leisurely" cyclists tend to be the ones without any notice of the laws. Dublin Bikers especially, and I would guess tourist Dublin Bikers being the absolute worst.

Deedsie

jwwb wrote: »

6 can we ban lycra from the college green cycle lanes. Big difference between someone cycling leisurely and someone trying to beat the cross city personal best

We should ban people speeding through the plaza. I would support designated lanes with broken lines so pedestrians can cross them when safe to do so.

Banning Lycra is a silly suggestion, these cyclists are the ones more likely to be aware of and follow the rules in my experience. Always a few fools but get AGS to fine them a few times and they won't be long towing the line.

One of my fears about the plaza is that it will become a "taxi rank" for those stupid rickshaws... Another fear is they will include bicycle parking in the plaza. I'm a cyclist, I cycle through Dublin everyday but the sight of battered bikes left at a parking bay is really ugly. I hope they keep the plaza clear of this.

Attached was my suggestion for a designated slow speed cycle lane

cdebru

Deedsie wrote: »

We should ban people speeding through the plaza. I would support designated lanes with broken lines so pedestrians can cross them when safe to do so.

Banning Lycra is a silly suggestion, these cyclists are the ones more likely to be aware of and follow the rules in my experience. Always a few fools but get AGS to fine them a few times and they won't be long towing the line.

One of my fears about the plaza is that it will become a "taxi rank" for those stupid rickshaws... Another fear is they will include bicycle parking in the plaza. I'm a cyclist, I cycle through Dublin everyday but the sight of battered bikes left at a parking bay is really ugly. I hope they keep the plaza clear of this.

Attached was my suggestion for a designated slow speed cycle lane

Your drawing would bring all cycle traffic to the exact busiest pedestrian point in the entire area those moving between Grafton Street area and O'Connell Street area.

Deedsie

cdebru wrote: »

Your drawing would bring all cycle traffic to the exact busiest pedestrian point in the entire area those moving between Grafton Street area and O'Connell Street area.

Its not to scale... I would imagine the roundabout would be centred between the trinity crossing and the pinch point with Grafton Street. Also as Suffolk street is to be pedestrianised I think that will dilute the number of pedestrians going through the pinch point at Lush...

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I asked upthread about the (more than likely) contention between buses stopping and the LUAS behind it waiting for boarding and exit from the buses. I was kindly informed that there would be no bus stops until Westmoreland Street. Whew I thought, that's good!

But is the photo a legitimate view of the plan? I dunno.

Bottom line is, if buses or taxis are allowed to stop/pick up/drop off on the Luas line there will be trouble ahead!.

Edit.... I've just looked again, and I suppose on a pragmatic basis, if the bus stops are indented fully, it might not be so bad. But still.....

given how there is typically a solid queue of double deckers from nassau st to O'Connell Bridge in the morning, I think it's safe to say there will be bus queues holding up the luas.

strandroad

cgcsb wrote: »

given how there is typically a solid queue of double deckers from nassau st to O'Connell Bridge in the morning, I think it's safe to say there will be bus queues holding up the luas.

On this topic, why won't anything be done with the fact that queues of buses are largely caused by how much time it takes to load/unload a bus when everyone needs to go past the driver, and maybe look for change or have a chat because why not...
You could have multiple buses use the bus stop and be gone in the time it takes to process one bus in this way.
It's so ridiculously quaint.

Drivers don't help by not opening the middle door, happened to me this week - he just ignored me.

To be honest it's hard to take any bus related city planning complaints seriously when the bus system is set up to be so inefficient.

RainyDay

jwwb wrote: »

6 can we ban lycra from the college green

But what will all the yummy mummies wear as they head for Starbucks after doing their shopping?

nowecant

mhge wrote: »

On this topic, why won't anything be done with the fact that queues of buses are largely caused by how much time it takes to load/unload a bus when everyone needs to go past the driver, and maybe look for change or have a chat because why not...
You could have multiple buses use the bus stop and be gone in the time it takes to process one bus in this way.
It's so ridiculously quaint.

Drivers don't help by not opening the middle door, happened to me this week - he just ignored me.

To be honest it's hard to take any bus related city planning complaints seriously when the bus system is set up to be so inefficient.

Delivery trucks and vans on D'Olier street in the mornings are a major issue as well, especially outside the Spar. They stop in the bus stops preventing buses getting in or out.

nowecant

There was a plan a few years back to remove the railings around St Andrews Church and make the area into a smaller plaza. I rely think the idea should be resurrected and be done at the same time as college green

Of course it would be much better if they remove the traffic from Church lane and St Andrews street. Of course delivery vans can still use them first thing in the morning.

Here is some more info and graphics on the Journal.ie

and some more info in The Irish Times

I think I also remember that the council wanted to open the new plaza around St Andrews Church onto Wicklow St

cgcsb

Deliveries should be done much earlier 5am-7am seems fair.

MJohnston

Delivery and taxi drivers are fairly lawless in this city unfortunately. They push and push their luck, and because there's zero AGS traffic presence in the city (beyond speed cameras), they get away with a lot. Especially annoying is their deliberate ignorance of double yellow lines, or simply just stopping in areas which cause disruption for everyone else. Taxis being allowed to use College Green is going to be a major problem - they should be banned during daytime hours.

nowecant

A single delivery truck in those bus stops for 20 mins can easily inconvenience 20+ fully loaded buses in the morning. A lot of people delayed for even 2 minutes adds up to a lot of time, never mind the frustration of being 10 meters from your stop being stuck on the bus while trying to get to work.

Last week there was two rigid lorries stopped on the other side of the spar on D'Olier street completely blocking that lane of traffic outside a parked row of cars doing deliveries at 8.30. This forced 3 lanes of traffic down to 2 beside what might be the busiest set of bus stops in the country.

The liberal application of some very heavy fines would sort it out. Even impound the truck will all of its cargo and see how long they keep doing it for.

In many cities all deliveries in the city center have to stop during rush hours or be completed early in the morning.

cdebru

cgcsb wrote: »

given how there is typically a solid queue of double deckers from nassau st to O'Connell Bridge in the morning, I think it's safe to say there will be bus queues holding up the luas.

Not necessarily with other traffic removed buses could in theory flow straight through that section to Westmoreland St

MJohnston

It strikes me how much of the objection to this plaza is along the lines of the disruption to bus routes as they currently exist. We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes, in favour of central termini with easy and cost-free transfers between transport modes. The most frustrating thing is that this is entirely within grasp, but people are too keen for no change to happen at all.

Carawaystick

There is no cost free transfer solution to have people walking in the rain along where there used to be public transport though.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

It strikes me how much of the objection to this plaza is along the lines of the disruption to bus routes as they currently exist. We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes, in favour of central termini with easy and cost-free transfers between transport modes. The most frustrating thing is that this is entirely within grasp, but people are too keen for no change to happen at all.

We had city centre termini, we got rid of them in favour of more cross city routes to improve suburb-suburb connectivity. Why do you want to go back to that?

cdebru

MJohnston wrote: »

It strikes me how much of the objection to this plaza is along the lines of the disruption to bus routes as they currently exist. We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes, in favour of central termini with easy and cost-free transfers between transport modes. The most frustrating thing is that this is entirely within grasp, but people are too keen for no change to happen at all.

Actually that is really what we should be aiming for rather than over long undependable cross city routes, a central station where you could transfer to a bus with a more dependable timetable to take you on to your final destination would open up a lot more potential routes to passengers.

cdebru

cgcsb wrote: »

We had city centre termini, we got rid of them in favour of more cross city routes to improve suburb-suburb connectivity. Why do you want to go back to that?

We didn't we had various city centre termini which didn't facilitate transfering and we changed those routes to much longer undependable routes which may be great if you need to go from Coolock to Jobstown but is pretty much useless if you want to go from Coolock to Ranelagh or Jobstown to Phibsboro.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

It strikes me how much of the objection to this plaza is along the lines of the disruption to bus routes as they currently exist. We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes, in favour of central termini with easy and cost-free transfers between transport modes. The most frustrating thing is that this is entirely within grasp, but people are too keen for no change to happen at all.

Umm we have already had a network review which resulted in more cross-city routes being created, as recommended by the Deloitte Report.

The passenger numbers rose after this was implemented so clearly that is what people want.

DCC are dead set against city centre termini so that won't be happening.

Cost free transfers aren't going to happen unless the funding model changes and I've not seen any indication that is going to take place.

Devilman40k

We ought to be looking at radically overhauling the bus network to get away from the necessity for these disrupted cross city routes

An overhaul of the DB network has already happened - in favour of cross city routes with major interchange points at Westmoreland St and D'olier St, which have actually worked (based on increases in passenger numbers)- This new plan has the potential to remove a lot of the benefit that was introduced in Network Direct.

in favour of central termini

DCC are actively against this - Plus I'm sure you remember the days when Parnell Sq, the Quays (north and South), Abbey St, College Green and Fleet St were all bus termini. Routes were disjointed with no changeover points causing hassle for commuters across the city

The only way to implement this is one central bus terminal (Westmoreland St and D'Olier St as it stands do this job)

cost-free transfers between transport modes

This is not within anyone's grasp at the moment , the funding is not there, funding and fare model would require radical change to achieve this.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

Umm we have already had a network review which resulted in more cross-city routes being created, as recommended by the Deloitte Report.

The passenger numbers rose after this was implemented so clearly that is what people want.

DCC are dead set against city centre termini so that won't be happening.

Cost free transfers aren't going to happen unless the funding model changes and I've not seen any indication that is going to take place.

Not completely true most network direct happened in 2011 and passenger number fell in 2011 and again in 2012 and stabilised in 2013.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

Not completely true most network direct happened in 2011 and passenger number fell in 2011 and again in 2012 and stabilised in 2013.

The numbers on the revised cross-city routes did increase after Network Direct was implemented - I can clearly remember DB reporting that.

The majority of ND changes were actually during both 2011 and 2012.

Passenger numbers pretty much stabilised at the end of 2012 and rose again in 2013.

MJohnston

So - did Network Direct intend to address Luas BXD or indeed a future plaza plan? I doubt it on the latter, and it would seem (from the current situation being what it is) that they didn't really address the former either.

Here's my point - whether the plaza plan goes ahead or not (and I have the strong feeling it will, if not in it's current guise), bus services through College Green are going to be severely degraded purely by the addition of BXD. Buses heading east-west on College Green are going to have a really bad time. Given this, I don't know how anyone can argue the bus network won't already need substantial revisions. Any plaza plan, even if it still provides reduced east-west access, will compound this.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

So - did Network Direct intend to address Luas BXD or indeed a future plaza plan? I doubt it on the latter, and it would seem (from the current situation being what it is) that they didn't really address the former either.

Here's my point - whether the plaza plan goes ahead or not (and I have the strong feeling it will, if not in it's current guise), bus services through College Green are going to be severely degraded purely by the addition of BXD. Buses heading east-west on College Green are going to have a really bad time. Given this, I don't know how anyone can argue the bus network won't already need substantial revisions. Any plaza plan, even if it still provides reduced east-west access, will compound this.

Network Direct was aimed at cutting out operational inefficiencies and unnecessary duplication of routes, creating a mix of direct and local his services and improving integration of bus services on QBCs.

At that stage no planning for the buses post-LUAS BXD had taken place. No suggestion was made until DCC released these plans that buses would be re-routed away from College Green.

That is the whole problem here - it is only being done now effectively as an afterthought.

That's what's so ludicrous about this.

I don't think that losing the cross-city connectivity is the solution.

MJohnston

At no point then, did anyone at Dublin Bus do any examination of how BXD would effect bus routes?

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

At no point then, did anyone at Dublin Bus do any examination of how BXD would effect bus routes?

Well as far as I am aware the understanding was that the routes would revert to their former routing.

It's only when DCC came up with plans that reduced the traffic lanes (shared or otherwise) from 4 to 2 that this has become such an issue.

Again - this should have formed part of the planning process. It didn't.

Carawaystick

as lxflyer has mentioned many times, an Bord Pleanála should have concerned themselves with this issue before granting planning for the tram through College Green.

What's happening now is the corpo saying "We have thjat shiny thing, if we had this other shiny thing too, it'd be great!"
"But what about all the people you're making life worse for?"

"Let them eat tram"

Devilman40k

MJohnston wrote: »

At no point then, did anyone at Dublin Bus do any examination of how BXD would effect bus routes?

At no stage during consultation for BXD or ND in 2009/2010 was a plaza proposed for College Green

The Railway Order Application for BXD was submitted in June 2010, ND began implementation in July 2010 but had been in design for some time before that

It was envisaged that Suffolk St to O'CS corridor would remain open for buses and routes would remain as they were.

This only became an issue when DCC realised (last year) that none of their own proposed plans would work

MJohnston

Nobody looked at the BXD route and said "hold on a minute, these bus routes going to be crossing a priority tram route, maybe we should be trying to avoid that area?"

As I said, plaza or no plaza, east-west on College Green is going to be extremely degraded thanks to BXD.