College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

pclive

Public consultation now open:

http://www.dublincity.ie/college-green

cgcsb

Backsliding on the taxi issue, how predictable.

MJohnston

pclive wrote: »

Public consultation now open:

http://www.dublincity.ie/college-green

Is there any need for private cars to be able to travel east on Dame Street from Parliament Street under this plan? I ask, because that is going to be a very difficult left turn for buses from S Georges St.

Spanish Eyes

Just an aside, but does anyone know why the Westbound buses (Lucan and beyond) are not ALREADY routed down Tara Street and Burgh Quay?

Westmoreland Street is like a bus depot at the moment, mad it is. And moving those Westbound buses would surely help.

Get us ready for the OFF (i.e. the real thing!).

MJohnston

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just an aside, but does anyone know why the Westbound buses (Lucan and beyond) are not ALREADY routed down Tara Street and Burgh Quay?

Westmoreland Street is like a bus depot at the moment, mad it is. And moving those Westbound buses would surely help.

Get us ready for the OFF (i.e. the real thing!).

I'd imagine Tara Street to Burgh Quay turn is nearly impossible for most buses in rush hour traffic.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Is there any need for private cars to be able to travel east on Dame Street from Parliament Street under this plan? I ask, because that is going to be a very difficult left turn for buses from S Georges St.

Accessing car parks?

A retreated stop line on Dame St would be needed.

Spanish Eyes

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd imagine Tara Street to Burgh Quay turn is nearly impossible for most buses in rush hour traffic.

Is that because of the light sequence or the volume of car traffic? A bus lane could be introduced on Tara Street and Burgh Quay surely. I think that might be on the cards anyway with the new traffic layout (no LHT onto Aston Quay).

Could be tried out for a while anyway, couldn't be any worse that the free for all on Westmoreland Street really.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just an aside, but does anyone know why the Westbound buses (Lucan and beyond) are not ALREADY routed down Tara Street and Burgh Quay?

Westmoreland Street is like a bus depot at the moment, mad it is. And moving those Westbound buses would surely help.

Get us ready for the OFF (i.e. the real thing!).

No bus priority measures on Tara St?

cgcsb

A bus lane on Tara Street would certainly help things along.

The plan includes a left turn for buses from south quays onto Parliament st. That'll be a tight turn.

Also turning onto parliament st from either Dame or Lord Edward St could be a challenge considering the gradient involved.

Overall it's a decent solution, assuming that Bachelor's Walk, George's st and Burgh Quay have car bans that are actually enforced with hefty fines enforced through cameras and license plate recognition.

MJohnston

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Is that because of the light sequence or the volume of car traffic? A bus lane could be introduced on Tara Street and Burgh Quay surely. I think that might be on the cards anyway with the new traffic layout (no LHT onto Aston Quay).

Could be tried out for a while anyway, couldn't be any worse that the free for all on Westmoreland Street really.

There's already a bus lane on Burgh Quay (mostly), but have a look at the layout:



What you'll get at rush hour is one of two things:

1. Lots of cars in the two regular lanes sort of but not really completely in the yellow box which would make the tight turn really difficult (but not impossible) for a bus while the cars are there (and they'd probably miss the green phase by the time the cars clear out).
2. Lots of coaches coming straight down the quays and filling up that bus lane (very quickly too thanks to the two traffic light junctions up ahead).

Yes, this will and can work with the broader traffic plan being implemented and freeing up Burgh Quay for PT only, but you were specifically why this doesn't happen *now*, and I think this is why.

hmmm

It'd be great if we could declutter the place - the image on pg 7 of the presentation sums it up.

Where is that Westmoreland cycle track going? Hopefully it isn't stealing pedestrian space, there isn't enough as it is. And how do people access bus stops with a cycle lane in the way?

In general I'm all for a bold vision which this seems to be.

Spanish Eyes

Just heard something like an "official announcement" about bus and car traffic movements to facilitate the Plaza. That was on the 3 o'c news on RTE1 just now. Headlines mostly, so maybe it will be teased out more on the Drivetime shows later?

Spanish Eyes

MJohnston wrote: »

There's already a bus lane on Burgh Quay (mostly), but have a look at the layout:



What you'll get at rush hour is one of two things:

1. Lots of cars in the two regular lanes sort of but not really completely in the yellow box which would make the tight turn really difficult (but not impossible) for a bus while the cars are there (and they'd probably miss the green phase by the time the cars clear out).
2. Lots of coaches coming straight down the quays and filling up that bus lane (very quickly too thanks to the two traffic light junctions up ahead).

Yes, this will and can work with the broader traffic plan being implemented and freeing up Burgh Quay for PT only, but you were specifically why this doesn't happen *now*, and I think this is why.

Thanks for the pic, makes it clearer alright.

I just can't see why the cars cannot be moved to the right before the junction there. Then a bus lane could exist all the way from Tara St to Burgh Quay.

Car restrictions will help.

MJohnston

hmmm wrote: »

Where is that Westmoreland cycle track going? Hopefully it isn't stealing pedestrian space, there isn't enough as it is. And how do people access bus stops with a cycle lane in the way?

As a cyclist, I'd love to know too, because I hate the idea of having to pass a bunch of bus passengers in some fudged cycle lane (which tends to happen a lot in Dublin).

Also, this makes no sense to me:



How is that 14 stop (and the 15s perhaps too) not going to block the Luas?

Ciaran_B

cgcsb wrote: »

A bus lane on Tara Street would certainly help things along.

The plan includes a left turn for buses from south quays onto Parliament st. That'll be a tight turn.

Also turning onto parliament st from either Dame or Lord Edward St could be a challenge considering the gradient involved.

Overall it's a decent solution, assuming that Bachelor's Walk, George's st and Burgh Quay have car bans that are actually enforced with hefty fines enforced through cameras and license plate recognition.

Up to a few years ago there was a left turn from the quays onto Parliament St. I wonder what buses will be routed down it now?

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just heard something like an "official announcement" about bus and car traffic movements to facilitate the Plaza. That was on the 3 o'c news on RTE1 just now. Headlines mostly, so maybe it will be teased out more on the Drivetime shows later?

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Up to a few years ago there was a left turn from the quays onto Parliament St. I wonder what buses will be routed down it now?

The consultation document tells you everything you need to know in detail.

There is nothing more to "tease out".

Spanish Eyes

lxflyer wrote: »

The consultation document tells you everything you need to know in detail.

There is nothing more to "tease out".

There is a lot to tease out I think.

For those who may not have access to the consultation document. Is it being delivered to every door in Dublin?

Boulevardier

I have looked at bus route maps on the consultation document, and for it to have any chance of working, Bachelor's walk would have to become bus only. Otherwise, utter chaos awaits.

cgcsb

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Up to a few years ago there was a left turn from the quays onto Parliament St. I wonder what buses will be routed down it now?

Did any double decker Dublin Buses use it?

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There is a lot to tease out I think.

For those who may not have access to the consultation document. Is it being delivered to every door in Dublin?

It's linked in the OP!

MJohnston

Boulevardier wrote: »

I have looked at bus route maps on the consultation document, and for it to have any chance of working, Bachelor's walk would have to become bus only. Otherwise, utter chaos awaits.

Those streets (marked 7-10 on the Transport Measures map) that say "Additional bus priority measures" are planned to be 'bus only' (whether that means taxis or not, I don't know), I don't know why they're being coy about the language in this document.

Spanish Eyes

cgcsb wrote: »

It's linked in the OP!

Thanks, I know that.

But I was referring more to those who would not have internet access. And despite what we think, that is a fair few people who use PT in Dublin.

Spanish Eyes

Being discussed on Newstalk now. Can be podcasted (as we know!)

A lot of people cannot do this, or access the DCC website. For one reason or another though. That has to be acknowledged too.

We are fine, but not everyone else is who might use these services. Could come as a big surprise!

Devilman40k

cgcsb wrote: »

Did any double decker Dublin Buses use it?

Yes, I can remember all Tallaght routes using that left turn up to the mid 1990's they were all double decker

Spanish Eyes

Deedsie wrote: »

It's available in Dublin City council offices as far as I know.

Yes, I know this too. But not everyone who uses transport in DCC (without access to internet) will think of going to Wood Quay either.

That is why other media talking about this is so important. And it is good for everyone too.

cgcsb

Devilman40k wrote: »

Yes, I can remember all Tallaght routes using that left turn up to the mid 1990's they were all double decker

Interesting, must have been a tight turning circle. I suppose if buses can do the Westmoreland St-Aston quay then why not.

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Yes, I know this too. But not everyone who uses transport in DCC (without access to internet) will think of going to Wood Quay either.

That is why other media talking about this is so important. And it is good for everyone too.

It is on RTÉ news website so I assume it will feature on the news this evening and possibly the papers tomorrow.

Spanish Eyes

cgcsb wrote: »

It is on RTÉ news website so I assume it will feature on the news this evening and possibly the papers tomorrow.

That is what I meant.

All media need to be talking about this! Thanks.

Devilman40k

cgcsb wrote: »

Interesting, must have been a tight turning circle. I suppose if buses can do the Westmoreland St-Aston quay then why not.

if they could manage the left turn onto Ardee St from the Coombe (before the construction of St Lukes Avenue ) they will have no problems with the turn onto Parliament St

Calina

Devilman40k wrote: »

if they could manage the left turn onto Ardee St from the Coombe (before the construction of St Lukes Avenue ) they will have no problems with the turn onto Parliament St

Thought the current buses were wider. Could that have an impact on turning circle?

Pete_Cavan

They seem to not be providing stops for a lot of bus routes on Westmoreland Street, is that correct? 11, 38, 38a, 38b, 46a, 140, 7b, 7d, 46e, 37, 39, 39a and 70 are all shown as travelling north along WML Street yet no stops are shown. I presume the 14, 15, 15a, 15b will be stopping on WML Street rather in the Luas track in front of Trinity?

I am not convinced Parliament Street will be able to handle all those bus routes. It will see a lot of bus movements in both directions and has already been mentioned, there are some tight turns for the buses to manoeuvre. If there are no stops, would it be completely mad for buses to drive on the right hand side on Parliament Street to give a better angle for turning left?

Does the cycle lane continue through the plaza or does it end at it? Cycle routes definitely need to be identified as to where they go to/come from.

The plan should also incorporate Westmoreland Street. Are we getting this plan?;


If so, you can see cycle lanes in both directions between the Luas track and the road. This would require cyclists and buses to cross over (as the cycle lane is west of buses at College Green plaza but is east of them in the above image), but this is probably a better solution than having a cycle lane to the left of buses pulling in.

I would also like to see the junction of College Street and WML Street moved slightly further south. This would mean that the triangular island can be connected to the footpath in front of AIB and becomes a more useful public space. There would be good views of the portico of Bank of Ireland from there, it would be a bright, sunny spot and would be a nicer location for the Thomas Moore monument which was there previously.

Spanish Eyes

One of the good things (amongst many) would be to get rid of the trees on WM Street, and widen the pavement there too.

I hope the trees go at the plaza and up Dame Street. They are hiding so much of the architecture, and/or making it very dark.

They have their places, but there is not ideal either.

Spanish Eyes

There is so much architecture and vistas of lovely buildings being obliterated by trees.

Just looking at this, and thinking why in the name of ?

Spanish Eyes

It looks great. Really. A huge improvement on what was there before.

The traffic thing will be OK in time. Everyone will get used to it eventually.

Many traffic changes have happened and we coped.

The look of Westmoreland Street and the Plaza is enough for me (apart from the trees, get rid of them, sorry they are obliterating so many buildings and vistas). Great!

Bring it on.

And let the moaners begin afterwards frankly.

Muahahaha

Had a look at the document and all seems pretty good apart from there being no segregated cycle track running east to west across the plaza. The artists impression in one picture shows a plaza with lots of pedestrians and one woman on a bicycle with a basket cycling casually across it whereas the reality is thousands of cyclists use the east-west axis every day.

Also I would have liked to see more done with Foster Place, removal of the taxi rank there and the trees too. Does anyone know who actually owns the Irish Parliament there- is it the State, Bank of Ireland or Trinity College? Its a resource that really should be opened up IMO.

Chris_5339762

Just do it. While there is a need to do something (for Luas reasons) this will be huge for Dublin and making it a more pedestrian friendly city.

Do it now and sort out the foreseeable issues (taxis blocking the whole thing, cycle conflicts). All of those can be sorted out once the basic thing is there.

MJohnston

Muahahaha wrote: »

Had a look at the document and all seems pretty good apart from there being no segregated cycle track running east to west across the plaza. The artists impression in one picture shows a plaza with lots of pedestrians and one woman on a bicycle with a basket cycling casually across it whereas the reality is thousands of cyclists use the east-west axis every day.

Also I would have liked to see more done with Foster Place, removal of the taxi rank there and the trees too. Does anyone know who actually owns the Irish Parliament there- is it the State, Bank of Ireland or Trinity College? Its a resource that really should be opened up IMO.

The plaza itself is still to be separately designed

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

That is what I meant.

All media need to be talking about this! Thanks.

To be honest you didn't really explain that in your initial post - hence my earlier reply.

Of course this needs to be publicised widely so that as many people as possible can make their views known, particularly anyone who uses one of the affected bus routes.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

And let the moaners begin afterwards frankly.

With respect, just because someone does not agree with this plan, does not make them a "moaner".


There are very valid reasons to oppose the wholesale re-routing of bus routes that are outlined in the document.

LXFlyer

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Up to a few years ago there was a left turn from the quays onto Parliament St. I wonder what buses will be routed down it now?

cgcsb wrote: »

Did any double decker Dublin Buses use it?

Devilman40k wrote: »

Yes, I can remember all Tallaght routes using that left turn up to the mid 1990's they were all double decker

cgcsb wrote: »

Interesting, must have been a tight turning circle. I suppose if buses can do the Westmoreland St-Aston quay then why not.

Devilman40k wrote: »

if they could manage the left turn onto Ardee St from the Coombe (before the construction of St Lukes Avenue ) they will have no problems with the turn onto Parliament St

Calina wrote: »

Thought the current buses were wider. Could that have an impact on turning circle?

Again, like on Dame Street you would have to have a retreated stop line on Parliament Street to allow buses turn left off Wellington Quay.


All of which reduces the number of buses that will fit into the street.

expectationlost

DCC going for bareness again, the stuff on the center of dame street should be kept

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

I have looked at bus route maps on the consultation document, and for it to have any chance of working, Bachelor's walk would have to become bus only. Otherwise, utter chaos awaits.

MJohnston wrote: »

Those streets (marked 7-10 on the Transport Measures map) that say "Additional bus priority measures" are planned to be 'bus only' (whether that means taxis or not, I don't know), I don't know why they're being coy about the language in this document.

Again this demonstrates the completely piecemeal approach being taken here - we don't actually know what is planned for the Quays other than there is a possibility of private vehicles being removed. It was not a definite part of the City Centre Transport Study.


How are people supposed to judge this idea without knowing whether the suggestion of the ban on cars from the Quays is going ahead?


Surely the whole set of plans should be consulted upon at once?

Spanish Eyes

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect, just because someone does not agree with this plan, does not make them a "moaner".


There are very valid reasons to oppose the wholesale re-routing of bus routes that are outlined in the document.

Well any chance we could just get on and do a "Trial Run" or similar, and then see how it goes?

The snail's pace at which things change in the city is beyond reproach now.

Too many think changes will be a disaster. How do they know this?

Let us give it a try, and then if it fails, back to plan B.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that. And I do realise that there are lots of implications for change, and investment required too.

I do enjoy your posts, you seem to have a great knowledge of PT in the city, but sometimes that can cloud one's vision of a city for everyone. With respect.

LXFlyer

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

They seem to not be providing stops for a lot of bus routes on Westmoreland Street, is that correct? 11, 38, 38a, 38b, 46a, 140, 7b, 7d, 46e, 37, 39, 39a and 70 are all shown as travelling north along WML Street yet no stops are shown. I presume the 14, 15, 15a, 15b will be stopping on WML Street rather in the Luas track in front of Trinity.

You presume wrong. I would assume that a bus stop bay is planned for the latter stops.

Here is the proposed revised stopping pattern:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Public-consultation-on-Dublin-City-Councils-proposals-for-College-Green-now-open/

Public consultation on Dublin City Council’s proposals for College Green now open

Published on Monday, April 11, 2016

Dublin Bus has today advised its customers to view the proposed traffic management changes to College Green to provide their feedback.

Dublin City Council in conjunction with the National Transport Authority has published proposals for the removal of all East / West traffic from the College Green area.

The plan includes traffic management changes prepared by Dublin City Council and proposes alternative routing for buses which serve the area. Below is a list of Dublin Bus routes and how they will be affected by these proposals.

The measures also include the provision of a 2-way segregated cycle track at the Bank of Ireland opposite Trinity College and improved pedestrian crossing facilities.

A public consultation process has commenced for a period of 6 weeks and will conclude 24th May 2016. Dublin Bus encourages its customers to view the proposed traffic management and bus route changes and provide feedback on them.

The proposals can be viewed at www.dublincity.ie/college-green . Details and maps are also available at the public counter in Dublin City Council Civic Offices, Wood Quay, Dublin 8.

Spanish Eyes

As a user of buses to the West of the city on occasion, I wonder why the 25a/b and 25 (Aston Quay) are not aligned with the other stops on Westmoreland Street, ie 26, 66, 67 and so on.

Many people would use either to get to Lucan. I just don't get it. But anyway.

prinzeugen

Well if this idiotic plan goes ahead then they may as well scrap the 83 route as it will be totally useless to the majority of people that use it.

Its going to make going into town a pain in the arse for me.

Sure there are alternatives but that would mean walking miles to the nearest stop, or if I use the 83 miles to walk when I get to town. Not great if you have trouble walking.

Going by the number of times cyclists are mentioned in that document its clear that this is for they're benefit at the expense of the rest of the population of Dublin.

What's the point of investing in low floor busses if you are going to dump your passengers a mile from where they want to go?

And what will happen in this "plaza". Full of drunk goths or people protesting about something.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well any chance we could just get on and do a "Trial Run" or similar, and then see how it goes?

The snail's pace at which things change in the city is beyond reproach now.

Too many think changes will be a disaster. How do they know this?

Let us give it a try, and then if it fails, back to plan B.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that. And I do realise that there are lots of implications for change, and investment required too.

I do enjoy your posts, you seem to have a great knowledge of PT in the city, but sometimes that can cloud one's vision of a city for everyone. With respect.

A "trial run" won't work - it'll either happen or it won't - but as it stands the complete lack of joined up thinking is frankly shambolic.

I'm quite happy for change to take place in Dublin - as long as the implications are thought through. But frankly they have not been in this case.

Vague notions of "extra bus priority measures" simply isn't acceptable - we need to know exactly what is planned - thousands of people could end up with extended journey times through the city centre and we are not being told what the full plan is.

It's all very well to make sweeping statements that "we coped" - but are you aware for example that DB had to increase the number of buses on some of the main routes diverted via Pearse Street in order to maintain the existing service level due to the longer journey times that the buses were taking?

That's extra buses that could have been used on other routes but which have to be used on the diverted routes to maintain service levels.

You have to look at this kind of thing - it's not black and white.

I'd ask could DCC have perhaps looked at alternative cycle routes rather than removing a full lane of traffic at College Green to fit in two cycle lanes?

I don't think pointing out the some of the negative aspects of this proposal is moaning frankly, nor do I make any apology for looking at it from a PT perspective - I am a PT user and this will impact upon me.

Calina

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It looks great. Really. A huge improvement on what was there before.

The traffic thing will be OK in time. Everyone will get used to it eventually.

Many traffic changes have happened and we coped.

The look of Westmoreland Street and the Plaza is enough for me (apart from the trees, get rid of them, sorry they are obliterating so many buildings and vistas). Great!

Bring it on.

And let the moaners begin afterwards frankly.

I've reviewed the impact this plan will have on the two busroutes that serve the area where I live.

I can't see anything other than a material disimprovement in service for me given the re-routes from current. You can call that moaning all you like. I think it's disappointing that you might assume that people who are moaning don't have valid reasons to moan.

Spanish Eyes

Let us see what the public consultation does.

To my mind that is just a snow job to say "we consulted people".

This is going ahead. Looks to me like a fait accompli.

But we shall see.

I did not mean to denigrate anyone BTW.

loyatemu

Muahahaha wrote: »

Does anyone know who actually owns the Irish Parliament there- is it the State, Bank of Ireland or Trinity College? Its a resource that really should be opened up IMO.

It's owned by BOI. There was some talk at the time of the bank bailout that the state might take ownership of the building as part repayment, I'm not sure if it was seriously pursued. Opportunity missed IMO.

mvt

Hope it works but see a lot of problems with the amount of bus's having to turn at Gratten bridge, batchelars walk & George's St.
Suppose theres only one way to find out
Think it will add to a lot of folks work commute by bus as well.
Not trying to be negative, will be great for our city if it works.