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College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,203 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    One of the good things (amongst many) would be to get rid of the trees on WM Street, and widen the pavement there too.

    I hope the trees go at the plaza and up Dame Street. They are hiding so much of the architecture, and/or making it very dark.

    They have their places, but there is not ideal either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,203 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    There is so much architecture and vistas of lovely buildings being obliterated by trees.

    Just looking at this, and thinking why in the name of ?

    Westmoreland-Street.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,203 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    It looks great. Really. A huge improvement on what was there before.

    The traffic thing will be OK in time. Everyone will get used to it eventually.

    Many traffic changes have happened and we coped.

    The look of Westmoreland Street and the Plaza is enough for me (apart from the trees, get rid of them, sorry they are obliterating so many buildings and vistas). Great!

    Bring it on.

    And let the moaners begin afterwards frankly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha


    Had a look at the document and all seems pretty good apart from there being no segregated cycle track running east to west across the plaza. The artists impression in one picture shows a plaza with lots of pedestrians and one woman on a bicycle with a basket cycling casually across it whereas the reality is thousands of cyclists use the east-west axis every day.

    Also I would have liked to see more done with Foster Place, removal of the taxi rank there and the trees too. Does anyone know who actually owns the Irish Parliament there- is it the State, Bank of Ireland or Trinity College? Its a resource that really should be opened up IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,760 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    Just do it. While there is a need to do something (for Luas reasons) this will be huge for Dublin and making it a more pedestrian friendly city.

    Do it now and sort out the foreseeable issues (taxis blocking the whole thing, cycle conflicts). All of those can be sorted out once the basic thing is there.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,338 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Had a look at the document and all seems pretty good apart from there being no segregated cycle track running east to west across the plaza. The artists impression in one picture shows a plaza with lots of pedestrians and one woman on a bicycle with a basket cycling casually across it whereas the reality is thousands of cyclists use the east-west axis every day.

    Also I would have liked to see more done with Foster Place, removal of the taxi rank there and the trees too. Does anyone know who actually owns the Irish Parliament there- is it the State, Bank of Ireland or Trinity College? Its a resource that really should be opened up IMO.

    The plaza itself is still to be separately designed


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,369 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    That is what I meant.

    All media need to be talking about this! Thanks.

    To be honest you didn't really explain that in your initial post - hence my earlier reply.

    Of course this needs to be publicised widely so that as many people as possible can make their views known, particularly anyone who uses one of the affected bus routes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,369 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    And let the moaners begin afterwards frankly.




    With respect, just because someone does not agree with this plan, does not make them a "moaner".


    There are very valid reasons to oppose the wholesale re-routing of bus routes that are outlined in the document.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,369 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Ciaran_B wrote: »
    Up to a few years ago there was a left turn from the quays onto Parliament St. I wonder what buses will be routed down it now?
    cgcsb wrote: »
    Did any double decker Dublin Buses use it?
    Yes, I can remember all Tallaght routes using that left turn up to the mid 1990's they were all double decker
    cgcsb wrote: »
    Interesting, must have been a tight turning circle. I suppose if buses can do the Westmoreland St-Aston quay then why not.
    if they could manage the left turn onto Ardee St from the Coombe (before the construction of St Lukes Avenue ) they will have no problems with the turn onto Parliament St
    Calina wrote: »
    Thought the current buses were wider. Could that have an impact on turning circle?



    Again, like on Dame Street you would have to have a retreated stop line on Parliament Street to allow buses turn left off Wellington Quay.


    All of which reduces the number of buses that will fit into the street.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,447 ✭✭✭✭ expectationlost


    DCC going for bareness again, the stuff on the center of dame street should be kept


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,369 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    I have looked at bus route maps on the consultation document, and for it to have any chance of working, Bachelor's walk would have to become bus only. Otherwise, utter chaos awaits.
    MJohnston wrote: »
    Those streets (marked 7-10 on the Transport Measures map) that say "Additional bus priority measures" are planned to be 'bus only' (whether that means taxis or not, I don't know), I don't know why they're being coy about the language in this document.



    Again this demonstrates the completely piecemeal approach being taken here - we don't actually know what is planned for the Quays other than there is a possibility of private vehicles being removed. It was not a definite part of the City Centre Transport Study.


    How are people supposed to judge this idea without knowing whether the suggestion of the ban on cars from the Quays is going ahead?


    Surely the whole set of plans should be consulted upon at once?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,203 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    lxflyer wrote: »
    With respect, just because someone does not agree with this plan, does not make them a "moaner".


    There are very valid reasons to oppose the wholesale re-routing of bus routes that are outlined in the document.

    Well any chance we could just get on and do a "Trial Run" or similar, and then see how it goes?

    The snail's pace at which things change in the city is beyond reproach now.

    Too many think changes will be a disaster. How do they know this?

    Let us give it a try, and then if it fails, back to plan B.

    Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that. And I do realise that there are lots of implications for change, and investment required too.

    I do enjoy your posts, you seem to have a great knowledge of PT in the city, but sometimes that can cloud one's vision of a city for everyone. With respect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,369 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    They seem to not be providing stops for a lot of bus routes on Westmoreland Street, is that correct? 11, 38, 38a, 38b, 46a, 140, 7b, 7d, 46e, 37, 39, 39a and 70 are all shown as travelling north along WML Street yet no stops are shown. I presume the 14, 15, 15a, 15b will be stopping on WML Street rather in the Luas track in front of Trinity.

    You presume wrong. I would assume that a bus stop bay is planned for the latter stops.

    Here is the proposed revised stopping pattern:
    http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Public-consultation-on-Dublin-City-Councils-proposals-for-College-Green-now-open/
    Public consultation on Dublin City Council’s proposals for College Green now open

    Published on Monday, April 11, 2016

    Dublin Bus has today advised its customers to view the proposed traffic management changes to College Green to provide their feedback.

    Dublin City Council in conjunction with the National Transport Authority has published proposals for the removal of all East / West traffic from the College Green area.

    The plan includes traffic management changes prepared by Dublin City Council and proposes alternative routing for buses which serve the area. Below is a list of Dublin Bus routes and how they will be affected by these proposals.

    The measures also include the provision of a 2-way segregated cycle track at the Bank of Ireland opposite Trinity College and improved pedestrian crossing facilities.

    A public consultation process has commenced for a period of 6 weeks and will conclude 24th May 2016. Dublin Bus encourages its customers to view the proposed traffic management and bus route changes and provide feedback on them.

    The proposals can be viewed at www.dublincity.ie/college-green . Details and maps are also available at the public counter in Dublin City Council Civic Offices, Wood Quay, Dublin 8.
    college%20green%20proposed%20changes.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,203 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    As a user of buses to the West of the city on occasion, I wonder why the 25a/b and 25 (Aston Quay) are not aligned with the other stops on Westmoreland Street, ie 26, 66, 67 and so on.

    Many people would use either to get to Lucan. I just don't get it. But anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 prinzeugen


    Well if this idiotic plan goes ahead then they may as well scrap the 83 route as it will be totally useless to the majority of people that use it.

    Its going to make going into town a pain in the arse for me.

    Sure there are alternatives but that would mean walking miles to the nearest stop, or if I use the 83 miles to walk when I get to town. Not great if you have trouble walking.

    Going by the number of times cyclists are mentioned in that document its clear that this is for they're benefit at the expense of the rest of the population of Dublin.

    What's the point of investing in low floor busses if you are going to dump your passengers a mile from where they want to go?

    And what will happen in this "plaza". Full of drunk goths or people protesting about something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,369 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Well any chance we could just get on and do a "Trial Run" or similar, and then see how it goes?

    The snail's pace at which things change in the city is beyond reproach now.

    Too many think changes will be a disaster. How do they know this?

    Let us give it a try, and then if it fails, back to plan B.

    Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that. And I do realise that there are lots of implications for change, and investment required too.

    I do enjoy your posts, you seem to have a great knowledge of PT in the city, but sometimes that can cloud one's vision of a city for everyone. With respect.
    A "trial run" won't work - it'll either happen or it won't - but as it stands the complete lack of joined up thinking is frankly shambolic.

    I'm quite happy for change to take place in Dublin - as long as the implications are thought through. But frankly they have not been in this case.

    Vague notions of "extra bus priority measures" simply isn't acceptable - we need to know exactly what is planned - thousands of people could end up with extended journey times through the city centre and we are not being told what the full plan is.

    It's all very well to make sweeping statements that "we coped" - but are you aware for example that DB had to increase the number of buses on some of the main routes diverted via Pearse Street in order to maintain the existing service level due to the longer journey times that the buses were taking?

    That's extra buses that could have been used on other routes but which have to be used on the diverted routes to maintain service levels.

    You have to look at this kind of thing - it's not black and white.

    I'd ask could DCC have perhaps looked at alternative cycle routes rather than removing a full lane of traffic at College Green to fit in two cycle lanes?

    I don't think pointing out the some of the negative aspects of this proposal is moaning frankly, nor do I make any apology for looking at it from a PT perspective - I am a PT user and this will impact upon me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭ Calina


    It looks great. Really. A huge improvement on what was there before.

    The traffic thing will be OK in time. Everyone will get used to it eventually.

    Many traffic changes have happened and we coped.

    The look of Westmoreland Street and the Plaza is enough for me (apart from the trees, get rid of them, sorry they are obliterating so many buildings and vistas). Great!

    Bring it on.

    And let the moaners begin afterwards frankly.

    I've reviewed the impact this plan will have on the two busroutes that serve the area where I live.

    I can't see anything other than a material disimprovement in service for me given the re-routes from current. You can call that moaning all you like. I think it's disappointing that you might assume that people who are moaning don't have valid reasons to moan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,203 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    Let us see what the public consultation does.

    To my mind that is just a snow job to say "we consulted people".

    This is going ahead. Looks to me like a fait accompli.

    But we shall see.

    I did not mean to denigrate anyone BTW.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,019 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Does anyone know who actually owns the Irish Parliament there- is it the State, Bank of Ireland or Trinity College? Its a resource that really should be opened up IMO.

    It's owned by BOI. There was some talk at the time of the bank bailout that the state might take ownership of the building as part repayment, I'm not sure if it was seriously pursued. Opportunity missed IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭ mvt


    Hope it works but see a lot of problems with the amount of bus's having to turn at Gratten bridge, batchelars walk & George's St.
    Suppose theres only one way to find out :)
    Think it will add to a lot of folks work commute by bus as well.
    Not trying to be negative, will be great for our city if it works.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭ Devilman40k


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Well if this idiotic plan goes ahead then they may as well scrap the 83 route as it will be totally useless to the majority of people that use it.


    Or re-route it away from Georges St - I had a feeling this was going to happen (in a previous post I had reservations on what would happen with the 83)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    It's unclear what the option for cycling from O'Connell Bridge to Grafton street or vice versa is. Will this be shared running along tram tracks with busses?


  • Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭ BOHSBOHS


    the amount of traffic being shoved up parliment st !
    they do know its a single lane each way ?
    westmoreland and d'olier have like 4 lanes each.

    i thought this plan was a joke when i heard it first:eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭ Devilman40k


    BOHSBOHS wrote: »
    the amount of traffic being shoved up parliment st !
    they do know its a single lane each way ?
    westmoreland and d'olier have like 4 lanes each.

    i thought this plan was a joke when i heard it first:eek:

    It looks like bus only on Parliament St.

    Introduction of bus only lane and a contraflow bus lane on Parliament St are mentioned in the document


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,922 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    I wonder with such a large volume of car traffic displaced what the effect will be in other areas. At the minute the area around Church st/Bridge st/King St/Bolton st/Christchuch/Patrick st etc. is choca-bloc with cars avoiding the most central parts of town, the result is basically a no go for pedestrians and cyclists. Try walking from Ormond Quay to Ushers Quay at rush hour, it's carnage.

    Ultimately what we need is high capacity public transport to deal with this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha


    I wonder how the tram, bus and taxi shared space is going to work through College Green. They say it is on a trial basis but its not hard to imagine a northbound tram coming from SSG going very slowly round the 90 degree turn at the bottom of Dawson onto Nassau St and then slowly again around the next 90 degree turn from Nassau to Grafton St. Then theres going to be some sort of lights outside Trinity to facilitate the cycle lanes and all the pedestrians crossing. So its not difficult to see how a tram, several Dublin Buses and a bunch of the many thousands of taxis in Dublin would clog up the route pretty easily. I just can't see how the trial for taxis can work on this stretch, we already have taxis fighting each other for fares by being in a race to pull in for someone, what'll happen when they jam the brakes to pick someone up while they're on the tram tracks with a tram and a bunch of buses coming behind them? This being Ireland we know they will stop if flagged, stick on the old hazard lights, it'll be grand.

    Friday and Saturday nights already see chaos on the streets with taxis, allowing them to follow the tram tracks at College Green seems like a recipe for even more chaos.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    It looks like bus only on Parliament St.

    Introduction of bus only lane and a contraflow bus lane on Parliament St are mentioned in the document

    It's hard to figure out which lane is contraflow, if you've 2 lanes and busses going in opposite directions on them...

    If this is bus only, how will Cyclists get from Capel st to South William st or St Gt Georges st? Down the Liffey and back?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,369 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    It's hard to figure out which lane is contraflow, if you've 2 lanes and busses going in opposite directions on them...

    If this is bus only, how will Cyclists get from Capel st to South William st or St Gt Georges st? Down the Liffey and back?

    Cyclists can use bus lanes and contra-flow bus lanes.

    I would imagine that what they mean is that Parliament St will become a two-way street for buses only (with the proviso that cyclists can use it as well).


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Cyclists can use bus lanes and contra-flow bus lanes.

    I would imagine that what they mean is that Parliament St will become a two-way street for buses only (with the proviso that cyclists can use it as well).

    The RSA say ( and they are often wrong) that cyclists can only use contra flow bus lanes if there is a sign permitting this.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 505 Koptain Liverpool


    Creating a large central plaza is in theory a great idea. It would be important, however, that a vibrant space is created rather than a barren lifeless space. In none of the artists impressions I've seen have there been any fountains, seating areas, kiosks etc


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